Mordor Balance Discussion

[Elite KryPtik]

Oh, is it? I didn't know that the other 2 still received the discount. I was misinformed there then, I apologize. I thought all 3 would now be super expensive to get. That will be weird then, since the Halberdiers are arguably the best unit you can get from Cirith Ungol, due to them doing equal damage against both infantry and cavalry.

[Odysseus]

Aye, Cirith Ungol Halberdiers are amazing. The Slave Farm reduces the cost of all orcs, and the halberdiers are orcs. The decrease of the Black Uruk-hai was conceptually inaccurate, so to speak.

The same as with the Dwarven Mine bug, where the cost reduction of upgrades should stop by 6 mines at 30%, but they can surpass that amount to 40-45%, which is a lot. Unfortunately, these bugs or oversights are harder to fix than they appear to be.

[Hamanathnath]

I haven't actually played a 1v1 Mordor vs Angmar game, but from what I've noticed from my multiple multiplayer matches, I would say that Mordor is currently weak against Angmar.

The early game fight seems pretty even.  The spam from both factions can effectively cancel each other out, and they generally start getting heroes around the same time.  Angmar might have a slight advantage due to how diverse they can be, but in my opinion, the early game battle is not the problem. 

The problem is, if Mordor doesn't get the upper hand during early game, the match seems to be effectively over, with Angmar coming out on top.  Once the Men of Carn Dum and Wights start coming out, Mordor doesn't really stand a chance.  Wights can turn the tide of games versus any faction if used properly, but against Mordor it is extremely effective becuase of the lack of counters Mordor has to it, as well as Orcs having pretty much no chance against them.  The only real counter that have to Wights is Trolls, which aren't  too great against Angmar because of the Men of Carn Dumand large Hero roster. 

Similarly to the Wight problem Mordor has, Mordor also has a tough time against the Men of Carn Dum, because for how early you can get them, Orcs do basically nothing to them.  But the real problem I see is in the Carn Dum Bowmen.  Mordor doesn't have even 1 counter to these guys, due to them taking so low damage from trampling, especially once they get their Armor Upgrade.  If an Angmar player gets enough upgraded Carn Dum Bowmen, while maintaining enough control of the map, the match is effectively over.  And I don't think it's because Carn Dum Bowmen are too strong, besides the trample damage problem, which would help Mordor out a lot. 

Anyways, that my opinion.  I'd still have to think of ways Mordor can be buffed to counter this, without making them as strong as some previous patches.  But making Carn Dum Bowmen take more trample damage will definitely help. 

[Odysseus]

And archers. Archers are extremely effective against wights, I'm surprised to not have seen people mention it before. Although I agree with the Men of Carn-Dûm issue. Just Men of Carn-Dûm in general make Angmar extremely powerful, and I am pretty confident that the issues that make Angmar currently OP lies mostly with them. Werewolves and the Shadow Guard abilities as well to some extent, but not as much as the Men of Carn-Dûm.

[Hamanathnath]

Yes Archers are effective against wights, but remember, we are talking about Mordor here.  Their Archers aren't as good as those of other factions, and on top of that, Wight will be healing a lot because of the low armor of Orcs.  So you will need a lot of archers and very good micro to kill those Wights, and if the you only attack the Wights, it will give Angmar's army the advantage in melee combat, and if they have Carn Dum Bowmen, they can kill a lot of Mordor's expensive archers.

Also, for every Archer Mordor has, they have less Free Orcs to hold the line, as well as less money because Archers cost money.  It's just way too risky to get enough Archers for them to be truly effective against Wights. Trolls are really the only real way to counter Wights as Mordor, and even that is pretty risky.

[-DJANGO-]

Yes you we might be right for saying Mordor has atM not really a Chance against Angmar. But you all have to remember Angmars is the New Faction here. Same thing was with Isengard when they were released. They got their Nerf-patches (and not only 1)...

I'd still have to think of ways Mordor can be buffed to counter this, without making them as strong as some previous patches.

Don't know if this is only related to the Wights. If Yes, u can counter them with Mordor. Firearrows, Cirith Ungol Bow Men, Nazugls. If No: Pls people stop comparing Angmar only to Mordor and try to change Mordor, instead of Angmar.

As LoM said:

Mordor especially should be tested in 1v1 games against older factions like Gondor before coming to early conclusions

Yes, many too strong things of Angmar are effecting especially Mordor, because they are a Spam-Faction: i.e. the fact, that Angmar has 2 Mass-Slayer-Heros (Zahragor & Witchking + Mass-slayer units like Wights and Witchers. An other thing, that makes Angmar in my opinion strong, not only against Mordor, is the fact that they can have very quick everything mentioned: quick Carn-Dum is probably the toughest effect. Maybe Angmar does not depend (does not need) on early Carn Dum, to cope with every faction in EG/MG, what do yall thing on this? (Would belong to Angmar Thread).

[Hamanathnath]

I'm pretty sure it is just outright impossible to have Fire Arrows, Archers to get said Fire Arrows, Black Uruk Archers, and Nazgul (preferably more then 1) before Angmar gets Wights out, which is generally around Mid-Game, assuming the Angmar player doesn't rush for them.  Angmar will most likely have a decent size Army of Carn Dum units and a good group of heroes before Mordor has all this.  And don't forget Angmar Spellbook is incredibly useful at de buffing and disrupting enemy units, and they will most likely have Dark Obliesk, The Orc Summon, at either Fell Wind or Frozen Land by this point.  I'm sorry, but this just doesn't seem possible for Mordor to win. 

Also, Nazgul aren't really a counter to Wights.  If the Nazgul tries to attack the Wight while on his Horse, the a Pike Unit or 2 can kill him.  If the Nazgul tries on Foot, then while he is attacking the Wights, there could be a Hero or 2 attacking the Nazgul. And retreating would be hard because of Angmar's crowd control options, such as Fell Wind or Frozen Land.

The way I see it, no other faction has this sort of problem against Angmar.  If Mordor doesn't control the map in the early stages of the game, a well played Angmar will be nearly impossible to stop.  But yes, Lord of Mordor is right, we do need to test Mordor against other factions before saying that they need buffs. 

[Odysseus]

Well, the only way I see to reduce the timing impact of the Men Carn-Dûm is by lowering the amount of experience tribute carts give to the Hall of the King's men, so that for level 2 you require 2-3 carts, and for level 3, 3 to 4 carts and adjusting spawn time and resource grant accordingly etc. Although this is the wrong topic for that.

We should take this discussion to the Angmar Balance Discussion in my opinion. Mordor got a 10% nerf to free orc damage, and Cirith Ungol went from 600 to 800. I don't see how these changes suddenly made Mordor's matchups impossible. Even if this was reverted, Angmar would still dominate Mordor. If anything, trolls were buffed, which is great and I would say that Mordor was buffed in a different aspect.

[Hamanathnath]

Those were not the only changes.  Nazgul trample damage and deceleration has been nerfed drastically (A good change, but still hinder Mordor all the same), Nazgul also cost more (another good change in my opinion), Black Uruks can't receive a discount anymore (a logical change), and Mordor lost Barricade (not a great change in my opinion, but I plan on talking about that later).  That is a lot of nerfs.  Also remember that other factions were buffed or completely reworked with the patches.  None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.

I do think this is more Mordor's problem then Angmar's problem.  Other Factions have a much better chance at killing Wights because of their outright stronger infantry.  Angmar just got a lot of nerfs that balanced them out with most of the other factions, or at least made it a lot closer.  More testing needs to be done, but I have the feeling this has more to do with Mordor than Angmar.

[-DJANGO-]

Concerning Wights Counter:

I played yesterday a 1on1 against Angmar with Mordor. I rushed Angmar pretty effective back to his Base in EG (by focusing the Vassal-Heads with Gorbag & early Gothmog). Then i went for Cirith Ungol, but only had the money for 2 Batallions, because my Economy wasnt good enough. Angmar sticked to Orcspam and although i had Cirith Ungol the Free-Banner Effect of Angmar came forth. Now it was even. Whilst i went on Eco and Nazgul, Angmar bought Zaphragor & Witchking. This was too much for Mordor, i was pushed back. Then i had to choose: Go for Trolls with the risk that Carn-Dum/Heros take them out, OR go for Bowmen-Spam to counter a possible Wights-Spam. In the following Angmar did go on Wights-Spam. I got 2 flying Nazgul and Firearrow-Bowmenspam, with Overseers (most of my Orcs had Overseers). Although i took the Witchking out with the 2 Fell Beasts, in the final fight i had no chance. I had to focus Zaphragor, Karsh and many many Wights. So i was a bit overwhelmed, and did a poor army placement, i clumped. Zapharagor went in the middle and went from Lvl. 4 to 10, killing at least 800CP (My fault does not mean that Zaphragor isn't ot OP af).
I really believe, that if there was no Zaphragor, i would have had time to focus on the Wights, and believe me, Firebowmen with Overseers deal good damage! But I agree with you that Wights are though for Mordor, because they dont die if they "touch" your Orcspam 

None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.

- Yes, Isengard 

[Hamanathnath]

None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.

- Yes, Isengard 

When I said that, I ment in the transition from 4.2.1 to 4.3/4.3.1. 

Concerning the rest of your post, it is pretty much how I see the Mordor vs Angmar matchup in a nutshell.  If you don't get win the early game, Angmar will most likely win. 

Out of curiosity, do you know Nazgul on Fellbeasts can pick up Wights with their attacks?  Or maybe they do a lot of damage to them?  I haven't actually tried them against Wights. 

[Odysseus]

Well, if that is the case, it's similar to how Sharku can use man-eater on a Beorning and instantly kill it, so evil .

Gonna check that Nazgul versus wight, should be interesting.

[Elite KryPtik]

Those were not the only changes.  Nazgul trample damage and deceleration has been nerfed drastically (A good change, but still hinder Mordor all the same), Nazgul also cost more (another good change in my opinion), Black Uruks can't receive a discount anymore (a logical change), and Mordor lost Barricade (not a great change in my opinion, but I plan on talking about that later).  That is a lot of nerfs.  Also remember that other factions were buffed or completely reworked with the patches.  None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.

I do think this is more Mordor's problem then Angmar's problem.  Other Factions have a much better chance at killing Wights because of their outright stronger infantry.  Angmar just got a lot of nerfs that balanced them out with most of the other factions, or at least made it a lot closer.  More testing needs to be done, but I have the feeling this has more to do with Mordor than Angmar.

^^ This. That is why I brought this up here instead of the Angmar thread. I didn't bring it up with 4.3 because I knew that Angmar was massively overpowered anyways, and there was no point wasting my time on anything but bug hunting. Now though, the faction is quite a bit more balanced, still leaning a bit towards being OP, and I noticed that Mordor especially has an incredibly difficult time dealing with them. Honestly I think simply changing the cirith ungol barracks back to how it was in 4.2.1 would help this problem significantly, but Mordor isn't my faction so that's the only idea I will give. I'll leave this discussion with Haman, who knows a lot more about Mordor than me.

[Hamanathnath]

Ok, I've play a lot more games with Mordor in 4.3.1, and would like to make some more suggestions about Balancing them.

Now I know I'm going to sound like a hypocrite when I say this..... But I think the nerf to the Nazgul Trample was too much.  The Deceleration is in a good spot, but the damage done by it is too low in my opinion.  Now I don't want to see it go back to how much damage they could do in 4.2.1, but this is one of the reasons why Mordor has no counter to Carn Dum Bowmen.  It takes 2-3 Tramples to kill standard Archers, who are supposed to be weak to trampling.  So a small Increase on Trample damage would be good in my opinion.

I was planning on making a bigger suggestion in this post, but I think I will start my own thread about it.  So that's about it with the smaller stuff.

I haven't been about to try Fellbeats vs Wights yet, but if anyone has, I am willing to hear feedback on that.

Greetings, Hamanathnath

 

[-DJANGO-]

Have you tried the Nazgul-Batallion. They Cost a bit more, but got all the Nazgul abilities + they do really good trample damage. I use them often when the enemy goes for archer spam, especially against Lorien ^^.

But I personally dont mind changing the normal Nazgul stats a bit. In general i'm a bit sad that mounted heros now dont do trample damage anymore. At least not so much to level up. I found it always interesting to lvl a bit with a mounted hero, of course avoiding pikes (like to get a gothmog quicker to lvl 4 ^^). Now i only use it to distract the enemy, not really to deal damage.