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Isengard Balance Discussion

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Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
The Howl ability of Wargriders is currently bugged, it only increases their speed and doesn't buff their damage as intended. Fixing them should reduce Isengard's vulnerability to cavalry starts.

Seleukos I.:
Hello together :)

I'd like to suggest a small change to two of Isengard's heroes: Lurtz and Ugluk

Right now (and in every other 4.x version I can think of^^) Lurtz and Ugluk are two of the, if not the, most cost efficient heroes in the game. With a price of only 1400 each they are really cheap, both have a strong leadership, good melee combat abilities, Lurtz is an exelent herokiller and Ugluk is good tank with a good level 10 power.
Thanks to how Isengard's economy and the devastation-spell you can afforde both of them quite early in the game. At this point in the game your opponent will most of the time not have the heroes to fight Lurtz and Ugluk, and fighting against an Isengard army with two heroes without own heroes is not good since Isen can level it's heroes (unless you have enough to kill them, cav for example).

Long story short: Lurtz and Ugluk join the fight too early, I feel like.

I'd suggest to increase the price of both of them by 200 to 1600. This isn't a huge change, I know, but I don't want to overnerf them either. If Lurtz and Ugluk would turn out to be still too strong the price could be increased to 1800.

What do you think?

Best regardes,
Seleukos

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
I would have gone with 1700, but I agree on the issue.

Smeargollum:
Hello everyone!
I think it is fair to say that Isengard is still one of the strongest factions, if not the strongest, despite some nerfs.
Isengard can struggle a bit in the early game against certain factions but most of the time it can strike back in the mid game after getting out some uruks and as we all know Isen is almost unstoppable in the late game. I don’t think that Lurtz, Ugluk, crossbows and, in the late game, Saruman play the biggest part in this “problem” anymore but the insanely strong discounts Isengard can get for both, their units and their upgrades have a huge impact.
The stats of Uruks are a bit stronger than the ones of Gondor soldiers for example and for that they also cost more on paper, however in reality with full discount they only cost a tiny little bit more (210 instead of 200 for the normal swords). 
The upgrades get only discounted by level 3 furnaces but therefor by 50% instead of 30% as it is for every other faction. I know that this is iconic for Isengard as a high-tech industry faction but in my opinion and the opinion of some other players as well that is too strong. Also, the strong industry factor for Isengard is already quite well represented in their strong economy supporting spells.

I think all these discounts combined make Isen to a too strong faction, as they can simply spam way more cost efficient troops than almost every other faction, so I would suggest to nerf them a little bit.

Another thing that gives Isengard a huge power spike in the midgame is the “minions of the white hand” spell, especially the cavalry summon. I know that this was already discussed a lot and it is not easy to nerf it further, I think, however it just forces the opponent to build pikes, can wipe out entire armies or destroy important tech like an outpost with the Wildman summon. That in combination with the Uruk spam can make you win the game relative easily. The problem in nerfing this spell more is that despite being super strong the first time it get’s used it is already significantly weaker by the second time and at some point it doesn’t do anything against the opponents army anymore, because it got upgraded and a lot bigger. So, even though it doesn’t scale at all in the late game, like the “grey company” summon for example which gives a leadership to your troops, it still feels too good and makes Isen a lot stronger.
Of course it would be possible to nerf that spell by making it more expensive or just let it summon less troops, but there is another idea that just came into my mind. What about making it cost less spell points, for example just 1-2 for the basic spell instead of 4, and therefor let it summon only half the troops (so always just one battalion instead of two). The idea behind that is that you can get it earlier, more or less in the transition time from early game Wildman and wargs to Uruks, but it is significantly weaker. Like that the spell could help Isengard out in one of the hardest times for it and with that actually have a role in Isen gameplay other than just winning the game by itself.
Obviously, that is just an idea to change the spell a bit and maybe it would just make the spell stronger but I think it could be worth trying. Also, the next spell for 10 spellpoints would come earlier as the spell before it costs less but that could be adjusted as well.
 
What do you guys think about these ideas for Isengard? Do you disagree entirely or have some further ideas to improve it?

Best regards,
Smeargollum

Vin55:
I think that the biggest issue is not the spell as you pointed out, but as you correctly assumed, the double upgrade and unit reduction, which makes it very easy for you to field 1500cp of fully upgraded units with even more money for heroes, to the point, where it does not hurt to have saruman killed, because you will just be able to get him back.
The solution for this might really be to either weaken the units discount, so that units cost a little more, which might weaken their early midgame a little too much though, or too decrease the upgrade reduction. I would favour the decrease to the upgrade reduction, and maybe have another decrease in the central Spell for Isengard, where you can build another citadel upgrade which reduces it to the normal amount, which non the less gives you a choice, and still weakens you enough, to have the tech out later.
Another possiblity would be to weaken the base defense of Isengard, especially the warg outpost, by limiting its range maybe?

But I totally agree, that Isengard needs some kind of nerf to the late game. Probably only angmar and mordor can keep up with them there.

Yours kindly,

Vin55

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