Dwarven Balance Discussion

[Odysseus]

Either that, or just make it so that it cannot be used in the FOW. This is my only problem with the spell, personally. All other powers basically need LOS, but Earthquake does not. You basically have a base destroyer at any time, without any form of defense. The Earthquake spell is devastating on 1v1 Camp maps, but loses power in Fortress maps and 2v2 and up scenarios. The other Dwarven Power feels a little underwhelming in comparison, so I would rather give some attention to the Dwarven Fortress.

[Hamanathnath]

Well Dwarven Fortress was just recently buffed significantly by lowering the price of Catapults from 1800 to 700, so I don't think it needs to be buffed anymore.  Both Dwarven Fortress and Earthquake have much more usage on camp maps in my opinion.  But I don't think there is really anything that can be done about that.  And I think Dwarven Fortress is in a much better spot due to its recent buff.

Concerning Earthquake, the problem is that if it is nerfed too much, then it becomes pretty much useless.  I completely agree that you should have vision on where you use Earthquake.  And I see the reasoning on why it should be more of an invasion supporter, and support the idea, but I also think that we should over nerf it.

What if it deals less damage then it does now, but completely disables all buildings hit by it for around 30 seconds, similar to when Boromir dies with the One Ring?

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I don't like your idea of nerfing Earthquake, I think it is pretty much fine as it is. The LOS thingy could be added, sure, but reducing its damage and giving it the ability to disable buildings would reduce it's usefulness to pretty much one situation: You are already winning the game and are currently in the process of sieging your enemy. As long as he has an army himself, you wouldn't be able to siege him since his army would stop you from doing so. It could be used on outposts, sure, but a nerf to that scenario would be even more unwarranted.

Earthquake has only one purpose, which is to destroy and/or heavily damage the base of your enemy. It is pretty much useless and not worth its cost in an army vs army battle, unlike the mines of Isengard. That spell has a long windup, but actually does pretty nice damage to units on top of its use against buildings. Earthquake can't do that (it stuns and stuff, I know, but that's not remotely worth 10 spellpoints). It can only destroy the economy buildings in the base of your opponent, military buildings will easily survive. This is just economical damage in the same way that forcing your enemy to rebuild his army by killing said army with the help of Vingilot or an Army of the Dead is economical damage. The added benefit of Earthquake is that your opponent probably has to rebuy pantry upgrades, but the other ultimate spells also have those benefits (AoD gives you mapcontrol, because your opponent lost his army, just as an example).

Remember, this is a 10 point spell, it is supposed to have a great impact on the game. Before you win, you still have to kill the army of your enemy, who in an even game should have access to his first 10 point spell roughly around that time as well, which is most likely to ruin your day. If the earthquake got reduced to something that could only help you when you already are sieging (=winning), I'd consider it more or less useless and never get it in a competitive environment.

[Hamanathnath]

I guess I can see your reasoning behind Earthquake staying the same.  I think that LOS is something that should definitely added, but I agree that Earthquake would be a lot less useful without the damage it deals now.

[The_Necromancer0]

I like the idea of making it so that it can't be cast on the fog of war.

Going back to what you were saying Elendils I'd like to point out that both the examples you used have a particularity that makes them less powerful than Earthquake. AoD needs vision and considering the size of it's spell always a difficult thing to do so that nerfs it slightly and it can't be spawned into a base (i think). Vingilot is also a great example of a support power, on it's own it's useless but it can be great once paired with an army. Earthquake on the other side can come out of no where and doesn't need to be supported by anything to cause massive damage.

Continuing the argument, I still think the damage should be nerfed but it could get a multiplier effect when used on walls, gates and wall-defenses. This would in term be a great way to break a siege, along with that it would also economically harm the player as they will need to rebuild their stuff to avoid being completely vunerable. In terms I still think that the spell it too powerful, way above the rest (don't even get me started on power of past ages) and should be nerfed like all the other powers into a support power which can only serve it's purpose if paired with something else such as an army. Also, if you compare it to the Avalanche of Angmar which is practically the same thing (a bit more damage to troops and extinguishes fire) but deals overall much less damage to the base it's spawned on.

[Hamanathnath]

The problem with a Damage Multiplier on walls is..... Well camp maps.  If you get hit by an Earthquake as Dwarves or Gondor, then suddenly you lost all you walls, making you extremely vulnerable because you can't rebuild them.  That sounds a bit unfair in my opinion.

[Odysseus]

Well Dwarven Fortress was just recently buffed significantly by lowering the price of Catapults from 1800 to 700, so I don't think it needs to be buffed anymore.

Is that so? I totally missed that, my bad! That's a proper buff, so I gotta check that tonight.

Hmm, I suppose rebuilding camp hedges and the like might not sound like such a bad idea!

[Mogat]

I actually agree completely with what Elendils Cousin said. Earthquake is in my opinion fine as it is now, the reasons for this Elendil pointed out very well.

[Odysseus]

Oh about the earthquake, I think it is spot on at the moment. Yes it sucks to be hit by it, but that's how 10 PP spells work, they help you turn the engagement or seal the deal in some cases. Just make sure you get the 10 PP spell first .

Also, hail Mogat, our lord and saviour, the champion of LPS!

[Vodohaka]

Oh about the earthquake, I think it is spot on at the moment. Yes it sucks to be hit by it, but that's how 10 PP spells work, they help you turn the engagement or seal the deal in some cases. Just make sure you get the 10 PP spell first .

+1 totally agree with your opinion

10 pp spells which are strong enough to turn the game if used correctly are a part of what makes this game so cool.

[Saeros]

@Necromancer, when I play against dwarves I buy as soon as possible the defense measures (1 and 2) for my economic buildings, that way an earthquake even centered on them does not destroy them completely, so I don't have to reconstruct them.
Build 1 production increase and 2 pantry, or 2 pantries at your buildings outside your castle to raise your cp.
Also Angmar has an ability that makes buildings invulnerable, you can use that too (assuming you play as Angmar) to protect your buildings, without searching for defense measures.
I wrote this cause I saw your post stating

However the power of the earthquake is so that it destroys most economics buildings  inside the  base often upgraded with (in my case) pantry upgrades at either 300, 600 or both

Concerning the power and use of the earthquake I think it is very good and useful but I also believe that it shouldn't be applied without vision of the area.

[Odysseus]

The same should probably apply to the Avalanche of Angmar.

[Hamanathnath]

There has been a lack of discussion concerning match ups for the Dwarves in my opinion, especially since they were Overhauled not too long ago.  I'll admit, most of their Match ups seem to be pretty well balanced, which I'll give credit to the Edain team for, especially since the Dwarves are pretty much 3 separate factions that play very differently.  But the Match up I'm about to discuss is one of the cases where it is pretty one sided. 

Dwarves of the Iron Hills vs Lothlorien

Disclaimer: I am not going to bring Ram Riders up as a reason why this match up is one sided, because Ram Riders are currently overpowered against every faction, and are typically banned from competitive play in this patch.

I'm not going to dance around the problem.  Tower Shields are the reason why this match up is one sided in favor of the Iron Hills.   Iron Hills Guardians barely take any damage from Arrows with this upgrade.  Of course, this applies against any faction, but it is very noticeable against Lothlorien because of how reliable their Archers are against any other faction.  Guardians are cheap, and Tower Shields are also cheap, so Iron Hills can pump them out very quickly.  And once this starts, it just turns into an avalanche of Heavily Armoured Dwarves that Lothlorien doesn't have a reliable counter to. 

Now as Lothlorien, their is 1 thing that you can use to your advantage in this matchup, and that is how much faster Elves are then Dwarves.  So if you want to, you can build loads of Archers, and try to very slowly lower the Dwarves health, running once the Dwarves get near, but generally this isn't enough to win Lothlorien the match up.  It is also possible to win If you get map control early enough using Lothlorien Swords and Spears, but if Iron Hills gets any sort of advantage over you, and especially if get an Outpost close to your Camp/Castle with a well and/or statue, then there is pretty much nothing you can do.

Now the obvious nerf to make this a bit more even would be to lower how much Armor against arrows Tower Shields give you to 50% or 60% instead of 75%.  And I think that might be enough to balance it out enough to where the match up isn't too unfair.  I realize that not every match up can be perfectly balanced, and their will be match ups that favor one side.  But this is one of the cases where one side has a bit too much favor to win.  I also don't think Nerfing Tower Shields would make Iron Hills under powered against any other faction. 

[Odysseus]

I said it as well, but I don't recall exactly where. Agree 100% with you, pal. Honestly, I still think that for such a cheap upgrade -50% ranged damage is still ridiculous, Erebor's Warmask does not provide that kind of buff, and Ered Luin's battle axe is much harder to use. Anyway, I would not only suggest to lower the Tower Shields to 50-40% though.
I would also suggest giving Caras Galadhon some armour piercing function, either via passive or an active. Have you seen the abysmal damage that they do against Tower Shielded Guardians, even after having levelled up a bit? They have no way to pierce heavy armour, even though they are a heroic unit.

I hinted to that last replay Draco uploaded, because the elves suffered greatly both from the Battlewagon's infinite trample and Tower Shields even though his opponent was relatively capable, and knew what counters to field.

[Hamanathnath]

I also agree that Caras Galadhon Guardians should pierce armour in some way.  Their abilities are a bit underwhelming right now, especially for a Heroic Unit.  And it would also help with Dealing with the Iron Hills later in the game.