Dwarven Balance Discussion

[Hamanathnath]

I have no problem with the Tunnel System personally.  Unlike in BFME2, where you can have Hall of Warriors and Mine any where you want them, the fixed plots from the BFME1 style make it limited to where you can go.  It is useful for sure, but overpowered is pushing it in my opinion.

I also already use Stonemasons in my base because I can get Mines on the outside Build plots.  Generally I have 1 mine for the Tunnel System in my base, and all the other resource buildings are Stonemasons.  Maybe it's just me though.

I think a Command Point increase, and maybe a slight trample deceleration increase would be good for the Battlewagons.  But other then that I still think they are fine the way they are now.

I am willing too test Iron Hills vs Lothlorien out Mogat, considering I brought this up, though I don't think it is fair for the Winner of the LPS cup to be a test subject in this, because even if you do win, that might just be you being better then me rather then Lothlorien and Iron Hills being balanced. 

 

[Elite KryPtik]

I think you guys misunderstood me, I never meant to say the tunnel system is OP, I just meant that in THIS SPECIFIC MATCHUP it is really effective against attempted harassment from elves. To answer your reply Mogat, I can easily have 3 guardians and pull them out at each of the 3 mineshafts you attack, and if my micro is on point I catch your troops before you attack the mineshaft. Combine this with the extra health mines gain from stoneworkers and the damage you can do is minimal.

It all comes down to how good you are at multitasking really, and frankly I don't think most people are good enough to split their armies and harass all over the map, even my attention becomes stretched terribly if I have to manage more than 3 groups of units. I think that when you have to manage a main force along with 3 different single battalions of harassment troops, you are bound to lose some elves to defending dwarves.

So if we are talking standard skill level engagements without incredibly intense harassment, I think its safe to say that the matchup is heavily in favor of the dwarves. If you screw up a single time as elves you'll pay terribly for it. This is kind of similar to the Mordor situation in the previous patch, where you could beat Mordor but a single mistake could kill you. We'll see how it goes, but right now Iron Hills is just a really solid counter to everything Lorien has.

[Mogat]

Trust me, I do manage to control a lot of different unit-groups at once 

Fact is, that you cannot pull units out of a mineshaft while others are entering somewhere else. There is always about 3-4 sec in which you cannot klick on the units in the mineshafts, which adds a lot of touble with using mines quickly (on competstive niveau those seconds are crucial. )
In addition to that, pulled out dwarves often bug a little and need some time until they can hit the units clumped behind their building.
As I already said, because of the default speed difference the elves never can be forced to fight, so catching an elven unit is very hard.

I am not sure how a direct fight between a medium sized lorien and dwarf force goes, but with an eco advantage through harassing it might be equal.

I acually would really like to see a replay/ test it out myself.

[Elite KryPtik]

Fact is, that you cannot pull units out of a mineshaft while others are entering somewhere else. There is always about 3-4 sec in which you cannot klick on the units in the mineshafts, which adds a lot of touble with using mines quickly (on competstive niveau those seconds are crucial. )

The key word here being ENTERING. I can quickly exit 3 guardians to stop you harassing without entering units in the mineshaft, so that has no relevance as far as I am concerned. Sure, you can run, but if your running then your not killing my mineshaft, which is what those guardians were there to prevent in the first place.

Again, I know that you can manage lots of troops at once, I can too with some difficulty, but not all players are as good as you or I. So we should also consider that you should stand a decent chance of winning without epic intense harassment, which is what your argument centers around. Yes, it is important, but if it is a requirement to win then there is a problem in my view. Plus, there is absolutely nothing stopping me from harassing your Mallorn Trees as well, combined with the fact that my guardians beat your swords in 1v1, and are cheaper than them unless you have 3 different border guardhouses. The advantages stacked for the dwarves are pretty obvious in this case.

[Mogat]

there is no sense in discussing this here how we would could etc.
If I wanted I could argue, that if you got 3 batalions in the mineshaft to not "enter" it I would win every engagement. Or that I am not attacking all mines at exact the same time so you couldn't pull out guardians without having enterd somewhere else before, or just the fact that you need a lot of time till your dwarves get around the building to attack the elves.
And I just run as far, that I see when you reenter the mine.
I think it is pointless to discuss this, because we could exchange arguments endlessly, I will stop now. If you want we can test it and improove the mod this way. But if so, then the shields are no reason at all for imbalance.

[-DJANGO-]

able to trample 1 full battalion of orcs or troop equivalent before slowing down.

- totally disagree with that. As I said above, Battle Wagons already slow down a bit. Even retreating they get stucked a bit with enemy units.

I think we all agree that they should cost more CP.

In my opinion Battle Wagons should rather die quicker against pikes, like in previous versions. As Elendil stated they can rush through a hole Batallion of Pikes without dying  . It should not be like this, that you need to upgrade your pikes so that they can onehit Wagons. Keep in mind their Handling.

Rather then a Trample Slow Down I would just reduce their Trample Damage (Reason for the Change we all agree i think: The Low Cost < Great Performance especially their Healing/Leadership abilities). So they should still be able to onehit normal orcs or similar units. Other units, archers should get good damage but no onehit. Always keep in mind the Barrel.

[Odysseus]

Apologies, I got a little irked and typed something I should probably not have.
I was just thinking of the olden BFME II days, where Dwarves dominated the competitive scene simply by rushing Battlewagons and ''abusing'' the tunnel system.

Anyway, Haman, as you said, I use the same setup with the Dwarves. One mine in the Base, the rest Stonemaisons, incredibly useful.

Thusfar, as Django has mentioned, a CP increase is something we have reached a consensus on. That is good. Otherwise, I think that we should first wait for the next patch to hit, since it is going to introduce another batch of changes to the Battlewagons. From there, we could again discuss the necessary tweaks to the Battlewagon.

How does that sound, gentlemen?

[Odysseus]

Dude, the patch has been out for like what, a couple of hours? Calm down. I reported the Carn-Dûm pikemen issue, which is obviously a bug.

About the Battlewagon, it can now completely kill a Carn-Dûm Ranger squad in two trampling strafes, which nets it an instant level 3-4. Its trample damage has been increased by 50%, which is a massive buff, giving your opponent less time to react with pikes. Also, its role has changed a bit, and I think the changes are good for a non-cavalry faction. The Battlewagon is tanky and slower, and the oil cask now does more damage too, if I am not mistaken. Instead of trolling your opponent with near infinite trample, you actually have to be more selective with your trample. It's similar to a Mordor Troll at the moment, which is interesting.
It's not like they received only nerfs, you are overreacting. I think adapting to the changes is the most important thing here.

The powerful support functions are now tied to the Forge, which I think is appropriate. The only thing I am not certain of is the pricing of all the upgrades and the Battlewagon itself. This needs to be narrowed down more perhaps.

[Walküre]

Draco, it's against the rules posting three consecutive comments within 24 hours. If you want to add something, you should simply use the edit function.

Deleted the posts and edited your main one.

[Odysseus]

I...umm..what? Draco, are you okay? Are you still mad or not? I can't tell.

Furthermore, you know that you are breaking the forum rules by triple posting in short sequence. It is not allowed, and I'm afraid Walk will have to be decisive here.

We'll see what the others think about the changes.

Edit: See, Walk ninja'ed me.

[Draco100000]

Just removed my messages i have to test this out a lot before make a proper post sorry to everyone. I just like too much dwarves and that nerf made me mad i have to play with them many times and then make a fair and well wrote post. Again so sry.

[Odysseus]

We know that you are very passionate about the Dwarves, Draco. You are hereby forgiven, no bad blood is there between us! Just think clearly before you post your approval or disapproval, and when you do, your chances to convince the team of your plight are the highest with a well-written post, bereft of clouded judgement. It will also help you prevent this little burst of ''negative emotion'' from happening in the future .

That said, your opinion is important. The Battlewagon changes are likely not set in stone yet. With these changes, extensive testing is quite obviously required. Get as many games as you can, and post the replays of notable ones, if you will.

For now, however, I think it is important that we also have the opinion of the community and the other testers.

I hope you can live with my answer.

Yours truly,

Odysseus.

[Hamanathnath]

The Flood Gates are opening.  Expect multiple posts about balance.

Battlewagons, in my opinion, are in a much better spot.  I really like the changes made to them. Though there are some problems I have with them. 

1.  The Archer Upgrade is really bad.  The cost of it makes it pretty much pointless to ever buy, because the Archers themselves damage is patheticly low, especially for Ered Luin.  The damage of Erebor and Iron Hills archer upgrade is slightly better, but still not enough to really do anything.   I would suggest that the upgrade price be halved, so 200 instead of 400, and the archers deal slightly more damage. 

2.  The standing attack does a lot of damage to units, but it is really pathetic on buildings.  Now I realize most cavalry is weak against buildings until upgraded, but they still do more damage then Battlewagons do for a lower price, so I think they should do more damage to buildings. 

Other then that, they really seem to be in a very good spot, though I will admit more testing should be done for them. 

Also, Ram Riders seem to be in a much better spot, so maybe people will start allowing them in Competative matches

[Odysseus]

1. I did some fiddling with this myself and I will have to agree. I think bringing the other upgrades into line was good, but the ranged upgrade was probably overnerfed. The Battlewagon is more expensive, and it is not always to opt for the Dwarven Lumbermill, since the majority of people prefer cheaper upgrades for their Dwarves. If you opt to not use the lumbermill, you'll always be paying that 600 +400 for the ranged upgrade, which is a whopping 1000.
Honestly, in its current state, the ranged upgrade probably needs a ROF increase, or could go even lower than 200, to 100 maybe.

Edit: Strange, it seems I was mistaken. The changelog says the cost was reduced to 200 and would require Elite Equipment, for the ranged upgrade. I am confused now. I have to verify.

2. Furthermore, I want to divert your attention to this topic:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32074.0.html
I think the Battlewagon is in a perfect state now, to actually go through with what Dain suggested in this very elaborate thread some time ago. It only needs to be adjusted to the current gameplay of the Dwarven Realms, and I think we're all set and good to go!

[Hamanathnath]

Yes, it does seem the Ranged Upgrade cost decrease was not applied.  I will report it.

Though I would still like an increase in damage to the Archers on the Battlewagon.  Considering how weak they are, 200 might still be too much.

I think perfecting the Battlewagon should be in one of the bigger updates, because obviously if we go with the designs given by Dain, it would take a lot of work.  But I really like those designs.