New Iron Hills Unique Siege Weapon

[korner]

The strength of the ballista lay in the ability to heave large spears (or bolts) at formations of massing infantrymen.

quoted from your source, Fredius.

that is why I want it to be specially fit against troops in close formation or clumped troops, trolls, siege weapons etc.

It simply should not give area damage to a bat of archers in lose formation, as in reality it might hit 1-2 people if they stand some meters away from each other.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think a knockback of 1-2 Soldiers wil lbe jsut fine! : ) And the main Strenght shoudl against Tight Formations and Shield Walls and etc. as korner said!

But I stil lthink ti could be ncie if the Swirly Chains can be showed somehow in Game and to represent better the knockbac or the are dmg!

[korner]

If we are looking for another siege weapon for Ered Luin:

I´d prefer something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4QPtzUcCVA

 

[Fredius]

Now that makes them certainly "unique" .

[Gandalf The Gray]

well i agree, the Ballistic weapons should be used for killing infantry and should get a knock back because of the chain that would be awesome 

[Elite KryPtik]

I think we have gotten a little off topic here.

korner: Many things in the game are "unrealistic" that's what makes it awesome. The whole point of this thread is to get the ballistae as they appear in the movie, removing aspects of their use defeats the purpose of my idea here. I can agree the anti-arrow may be a little hard to implement due to how the game handles ranged units, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have the spinning chains and have a small area damage. Additionally, I see no issue with having them added alongside the current catapult, after all Erebor get the Earthshaker, limited to 5, so we could get this ballista, limited to 5. As for the argument that they get a catapult on top of the Ered Mithrin outpost, its immobile, single shot long reload time weapon, not a real mobile catapult.

[korner]

okay if you don´t want us to discuss about details of the proposal and just want a yes or no to 100% implemetation of your idea:
then I have to say I am AGAINST implementation of Iron Hills ballista at all.

I would support its implementation, if that little feature would be taken out, but that´s obviously not part of this discussion...

[Adrigabbro]

I strongly suport korner's idea here. In 3.8.1 siege weapons were way too efficient against troops and it was not healthy for the gameplay. However, the idea of an "anti monster/siege wepaons ballista" looks very good and unique.

EDIT: the title is "new Iron Hills unique siege weapon". I think w're quite on-topic.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Additionally, I see no issue with having them added alongside the current catapult

Well, I do see a ton of reasons not to add it or at least add it in a different way if you ask me. (And BTW, I brought this up every single time there was the idea to include the ballista for IH and there was NEVER someone to answer this question. )

1. Why does everyone keep bringing up the earthshaker if it comes for the catapult? Let's just for the sake of argument presume that the shaker is not a more unpractical ram which has technically no real use and is therefore more of less not an improvement for Erebor. Let's in fact pretend that the shaker is extremly powerfull against buildings and really helps Erebor. Then it's still only useable against buildings, does therefore the job every catapult or (especially) ram can do, so even then it's no improvement for Erebor! (Note that this doesn't mean he is necessarily weaker than the ram / has weaker destruction power: As long as it doesn't give Erebor an strategic option like destroy the fortress while he is away or things like that, it is technically a redundant unit. In a real game you will use the shaker (if you actually do!) in a situation to crush his fortress, destroy walls and buildings and so on -which is exactly the purpose of rams! Therefore the shaker is not a real unit if you want to put it that way.)
Now for the ballista a unit which should be exclusively strong against infantry and siege via knockback and strong single target damage. How is this no improvement in power for IH? First of all it would make the perfect bunker unit because it could snipe siege units. Then with "strong against units" I expect it to really matter against units. Am I right about this? If yes, tell me how a unit which can combat the enemy army in an additional way is equally strong than a unit which can just be usefull against the enemy fortress (which in practice requires the dwarves to have already defeated a good chunk of the enemies army).
---> To sum up: There might be a way to balance the ballista, but there is no way to balance the ballista between the 3 dwarven realms. (OK, there is; my point it the ballista would buff IH and the shaker is no argument why this is fine. )

2. If I remember correctly IH-catapults are already the dwarven catapult which the highst single target damage yet smallest area of effect. So what is the point of the ballista in the first place if you're talking about IH?
Eventhough a buff for the faction, IH especially doesn't need this unit.
---> This point could be solved by switching Ered Luin and IH catapults. Just so you know I'm not the complete spoil sport if it comes to dwarven suggestions. However than again the ballista would definitely buff IH, so you are kind of stuck in a situation where the ballista is either redundant and possibly a severe buff or just a straight buff.

3. I wrote it already once: I am no fan of just adding a unit and then immediately hard-capping its numbers just for the sake of balance. This is appropriate for real hero-units, in this case however, I'm going to say that designing a normal unit and keeping problematic concepts (like the 3.8.1 siege damage against troops), but then limiting its numbers so this problem is just quenched directly -that this is (and I do not intend to offend anyone) lazy design.

4. There seem to be contradicting ideas about the knockback range of the ballista, but please: This constant knockdown for the entire army was probably the most disgusting feature catapult-spamm did ever possess. If this was ever the case (because it could very well, considering the movie scenes), please no! If not, just ignore this point.


No the following points are really minor as they are only personal preferences: I found the idea of dwarven ballistas very neat if it wasn't for this godawful chain *******. I know, personal preferences and stuff, but I can only take a certain level of stupidity in one scene and this was well beyond it. And no this scene is in no definition of the word "awesome" for me. OK, I'm studying physics, so I might be sensitized a bit...
---> What I am trying to say is: If the ballista was to be integrated in the game, take away the chains...

If you would ask me, what nobody does as I know (this is probably the most destroyed reference to Gimli ever written ), I would include the ballista for Drar: This guy is supposed to be a building destroyer and his skills are severely or boring. Why not give him a stationary ballista instead the sabotage ability?


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[LordDainIronfoot]

I am always happy to see someone thinking in such detail no matter the Topic! It really mans that people care for the idea,for the game and for the Mod! Thank you for the feedback firstly!

1. People Bring the Earth Shaker because even if he is currently Weak he still is an Extra Unit which other Kingdoms do not have! And I personaly like the idea about the Earth Shaker but all it needs is a little buff to make more useful and I will love to play him more! May some Extra Protection or Armor and little bit more Damage or new Ability in addition to the current one! We just need to improve him a little!

2.Well I love the Iron Hills Catapult but we just thought that since aall 2 Kingdoms have Catapults may one of them should have a Ballista! I guess it is about having something diffrent than Catapult and it seem some people like the Iron Ballista and if adding it as an Exra Unit is no good we decided to give an option to replace something!

3. The idea with Limiting it is based on the fact that Earth Shaker are Limited and if the Iron Ballsita is ever added as an Extra Unit for IHs then it is logical to Limit it too,especialyl if is strong,thats all!

4.Abou the Knocback,I agree with you about the Old Version thing! But with the Iron Hills Ballista we can think of something better and more unique!
For Example we can have CHain Bolts which wil lbe stronger than Infantry and will do some Moderate Knockback but the Ballista will need like 10sec CD (or more or less) before it can "reload" and fire! Next we can give it Normal Piercing Bolts which wil lbe strong agaisnt Singe Targets as korner said Trolls,SIege Units and such and will not need to Recharge so much or not at all! What you think about that!?

And if the Ballista is an Extra Unit like Earth Shaker then of course we shiould find one for Ered Luin too! I my odl topic I suggested a Siege Unit which can protect your Units doruing Castle Attacks but if that is not good enough I have found this really cool and interesting idea from WETA Designs which can be used for Ered Luin!

Thats how I called it of course do not take it litterally! It wil lbe strong against Multiple Foes or something liek that but I have to go now and we can discuss it later!Hope yo uguys like it!

Greetings to all!

[Melkor Bauglir]

OK, replacing the current catapult with the ballista should be no problem. Maybe IH could then keep their unique catapult as an fortress expansion (instead of a ballista) so the three-shot catapult would not just be removed? (Or in reverse, that the ballista becomes a defense structure and the catapult stays. This would probably be more logical because then the anti-siege function could be implemented, but on the other hand the ballista couldn't be used in real fights. )
Then it arises another question: What about the flaming shot upgrade for IH? Flaming ballista arrows (though pretty nice ) would certainly look a little weird, so I'm not sure about this. Perhaps we generalize the artillery upgrade in something like "Dwarven Inventiveness" or "Special Ammunition" which grants flaming shots to Ered Luin and Erebor catapults and the weapon switch to chain bolts (still not so convinced of this ) for IH. Or just keep it like it is, e.g. in "Medieval: Total War" ballistas can also use flaming shots, so it shouldn't be complete nonsense.

Now, if we should conclude in adding the ballista as a special unit (which I wouldn't like so much) I don't think that just buffing the shaker will change anything. The problem IMO is, that the ram and the shaker serve exactly the same purpose, so either of them should be useless (especially because clumped production facilities are a thing of the past without free building -that was the one thing the shaker was good at!).
Maybe he can become something like a disruption unit which has to get close, but can then knockdown, slow and push away chunks of the enemy forces? However for a device that would probably not work in real life (and even being a fantasy world, most of our rules do apply to Middle Earth!) this would eventually be too big of a role. I mean it's not that the dwarves are unable to build low tech gear of extremly high quality (being both traditional, but excellent craftsmen), but they aren't earth benders.

So there is probably nothing really specific in this comment, I'm just kind of throwing ideas left, right and center.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[LordDainIronfoot]

Actualyl it was my orignal idea that Iron Ballista should take the Place of Catapults and the Uniqe Three Shot Catapult should be a Fortress Defence Unit!

Well the Iron Ballista can get something like "Dwarves Steel Bolt Head" which will do more Piercing DMG to Single Targets or the Upgrade can be "Chain Bolts" which will unlock the rechargeable Ammonition like I said before that!? Since it will be more like Strong Against Units and Single Targets(Trolls,Gates and Siege Machines) its Upgrade can be somethign which increases slightly their efectiveness against Units as we said above with the Small Knockback from the Chains!? I think the Chains wil lbe godo as and Upgrade for the Iron Ballista!?

[Melkor Bauglir]

Actualyl it was my orignal idea that Iron Ballista should take the Place of Catapults and the Uniqe Three Shot Catapult should be a Fortress Defence Unit!

Damn. I would certainly like this implementation!

Now, if the chains should be included, I also would prefer them as an upgrade. I mean the idea of attaching something heavy and spread out to a fast moving projectile is actually pretty intelligent, it would certainly cause a lot more damage even for the loss of range and accuracy. But it is probably something too "special" to be available from the start.
And yes, that was exactly my intention: Such an upgrade would unlock the weapon swap, which then worked exactly as proposed by you! The ballista could then actually hit and knockdown a pretty large area, because the main problem (chain knockdown because of high fire rate -yes, it's weird, that "chain" does appear in this term, too! ) would be totally solved by a bad rate of fire.
I was suggesting such a general upgrade for artillery because the game can't deal with too many different upgrades. On the other hand an additional upgrade doesn't matter at this point.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well about the Catapul Defence we seem to think the same! You suggested the same thig I was thiking about!  So I guess we agee on that matter!?

Now about the Upgrade! Can I summarize that me and you agree on the part that the Ballista should have and Upgrade "Chain Bolts" which wil unloke the Ammonition Swap from Strong against Single Targets with quick firing rate to Slow Recharge Firing rate with Chain Bolts strong Against Units with Knockback!?

And about the Chain whould it be only Knockback or we can dd a little Area DMG like 1-2 Soldiers !?

Greetings!

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well about the Catapul Defence we seem to think the same! You suggested the same thig I was thiking about!  So I guess we agee on that matter!?

Seems like it.

Now about the Upgrade! Can I summarize that me and you agree on the part that the Ballista should have and Upgrade "Chain Bolts" which wil unloke the Ammonition Swap from Strong against Single Targets with quick firing rate to Slow Recharge Firing rate with Chain Bolts strong Against Units with Knockback!?

Yes. Eventhough I would also be perfectly fine with normal flaming shots or steel bolts -even the old fire work bolts of the hobbit ballistas could be used. (Fireworks at Bilbo's are made in Dale and there was a specific thing called "Dwarven candle".) OK, now I'm joking, but it should be something of the first three options.

And about the Chain whould it be only Knockback or we can dd a little Area DMG like 1-2 Soldiers !?

I think very little damage sounds appropriate. I always looks kind of strange if people get flung meters through the air yet stay entirely healthy. I'm not talking about major damage, only so you can realise that you in fact hit someone.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir