Lothlórien Balance Discussion

[Elite KryPtik]

Rohan is much better, and I know how to play them late game, but I didn't want to get into a huge discussion about it because this is the Lothlorien thread
Their biggest issue right now is that the cavalry archers don't do very much damage to a bunch of tower guards in formation or Isengard armies with full upgrades, so on the whole they are still very weak late game. Enough about Rohan though.

As for the pikes, I will continue playing and reporting my thoughts about it, sometimes stats alone in code aren't enough to determine balance. I'm happy to hear you'll increase the CP upgrade though, is it going to be more expensive as well? I think it should be a little more expensive if its giving more command points.

As for why the dwarven pikes are so good, the answer is simple: better health values and better leadership. Late game Dwarven pikes are monstrous, especially if your playing iron hills with Dains abilities. There are other contributing factors as well, for example the debuff of the ravens.

[CragLord]

Guys, arrows from citadel or level 3 buildings are able to melt Ents health bar in matter of seconds. I really don't find this as regular situation, I am not speaking in balance terms only.
First same arrows almost do no damage to other siege units. Second, is normal in lore term that bunch of arrows bring down Ent or better question to do any damage to it? Those were no fire arrows, standard regular arrows...
So is possible to change this somehow in future?   

Regards,
Crag

[Elite KryPtik]

I disagree Crag, I used the ent summon of Rohan on a brutal Gondor camp the other day, that also had a bunch of tower guards and other enemies in it, and I was still able to bring down the entire camp except 2 buildings. I have no problem with the current health and armor setup of the ents, especially for elves who can rebuild them.

[CragLord]

I really don't have problem to throw rocks with ents from distance, if you have done that. I haven't checked Rohan ultimate power, I am speaking about units from Lothlorien regular production.
I played as Lothlorien against Mordor AI, and AI upgraded recourse buildings to level 3.
I tried to use ent on "Melee attack mode" to deal damage on citadel. Ent's health bar was melted down in mater of seconds. It was melting like snow under  "warm water" ... 
And I find this not regular from logical reasons a bit. Regular arrows shouldn't damage Ent at all. Simply lets take a look in that way also. As I have said, those arrows deal small damage to other siege weapons, so this is very strange...
I don't know are units from standard production of same attributes as those from Rohan ultimate power, but if you can, check that.

P.S. I am speaking of structure arrow damage (recourse buildings, citadel, and I presume same is with standard arrows from defensive towers), not arrows from units etc

Regards,
CragLord

[Elite KryPtik]

I know what you are talking about, I got it the first time, and I still disagree. The Rohan summoned ents have the same statistics as trainable Lothlorien ents, and I was still able to bring down a Gondor camp, using melee mode. Furthermore, in the same game I was up against a brutal Lothlorien as well, who hit me with lots of Ents, coming into my Rohan camp with all the towers built, and it took quite a few arrows to bring them down. If you have more than 2 ents if the enemies base they will bring it down no problem. Try sending 5 ents led by Treebeard and Quickbeam, good luck bringing them down with arrows. They are fine as is.

[CragLord]

As I have described you, it was experimental thing with one ent.
I presume ofc if I come with 5 ents with or without ent heroes that citadel will probably go down, and bigger part of base.
But that is not my point, my point is that arrow damage from structures is still too great on ents (if it is reduced anyway from previous version of game)
I will also check will those arrows deal "same" amount of damage to rams or catapults and then I will wrote some more detail comment with general comparison.

Regards,
Crag

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Five ents led by Treebeard and Quickbeam? If you can afford that, you can win by just drowning your opponent in your money. The problem is not that ents can't get stuff done, but that ents are too vulnerable to arrows from buildings. And I share that sentiment, ents are supposed to be vulnerable to pikes and elemental damage, not buildings.

[CragLord]

Five ents led by Treebeard and Quickbeam? If you can afford that, you can win by just drowning your opponent in your money. The problem is not that ents can't get stuff done, but that ents are too vulnerable to arrows from buildings. And I share that sentiment, ents are supposed to be vulnerable to pikes and elemental damage, not buildings.

With no more "quoting" and talking, that is my point also from beginning.
And in same time, rams can go into race around buildings and arrows do ~0 damage to them. And probably same is with catapults. Have to check. Simply ents are siege, not regular one as other "mechanic" but that is not reason that those arrows deal such amount of damage to them while other non living siege is almost immune to it.

Regards,
Crag

[Elite KryPtik]

Ents are not "just siege" they can also slaughter units by the dozen, whereas rams can only hit buildings. Therefore, like trolls, they should be a bit more vulnerable to all forms of damage. Anyways, whats the point in sending in a single Ent? You send them in groups to keep them protected.

[Lord of Mordor]

Ents never have to take damage from buildings if you don't want them to though, they can throw their rocks farther than any tower can shoot. So is turret damage a problem? It's easy to increase their armor, but I don't think it's a bad thing per se that you have to approach a heavily defended base differently. But I don't really mind either way, I can also see the point that siege-focussed monsters shouldn't get downed too easily by turrets. Ents actually have better armor against turrets already than most other units or monsters, but not as good as mechanical siege engines like rams or catapults.

[Odysseus]

Well, I think we are nearly there. They might just need a little bit more of an armour buff against regular or at the least defensive structure arrows. Although, arrows from defensive resource structures are much stronger than regular arrows of course, so perhaps it is somewhat fair. Ents are really powerful nonetheless. They can kick back, unlike other siege and they even have a way to fight from a safe distance when it comes to those arrow towers or defensive arrow upgrades. Being able to switch between those two modes is very versatile, and versatility is worth double. I doubt you'll really have the time to use the melee attack in competitive gameplay anyway, since there is much less risk attacking from range with Ents and they are the definition of slow, apart from Quickbeam.
Edit: Ack, I was beaten to it!

[CragLord]

Ents are not "just siege" they can also slaughter units by the dozen, whereas rams can only hit buildings. Therefore, like trolls, they should be a bit more vulnerable to all forms of damage. Anyways, whats the point in sending in a single Ent? You send them in groups to keep them protected.

I know everything you wrote here, and I still think that damage is simply overpowered.
I sent single ent randomly, because while I play game I am in search of bugs in same time and other issues, I was looking for some graphics animation bugs with ents when I observed ent while he was moving (take a look at bug section ).
And then I sent him in middle of base and noticed that.

Guys, I understand everything you wrote here, but simply in my mind, living tree shouldn't die under arrow burst no matter what you wrote here in balance terms about it.
Again, I ask you not to mind me wrong, I just wanted to point on something unusual in my opinion. Simply in logic, I don't see this justified that big walking tree is destroyed by buildings which are shooting regular arrows, that is all. But if there is no problem about this in general, I will continue using them from distance as I have done so far. I almost never use them in melee form anyway.
Again, I don't have problem with ent usage in general, I just noticed something "unusual" in my opinion, situation that arrows take down ent...
I look on this in similar way as on Flying units situation.
I have tested again today and noticed that 12 hits are needed to take down catapult (mostly wooden machine) by strong giant bird which should probably be able to take it down by 2 or at most 3 hits (I know this is probably not argument to call on in term of this game or mod, but in movie it seems that situation when nazguls take those Minas Tirith catapults is well constructed). Simply by my thinking that is also situation about we need further to discuss. I simply look on those situation in same way, and I hope you understand me when I say that in right way. Simply I am not experienced as balance tester, but those situation by my logic are not justified by any term. I just hope you can understand my view about this.

Ents never have to take damage from buildings if you don't want them to though, they can throw their rocks farther than any tower can shoot. So is turret damage a problem? It's easy to increase their armor, but I don't think it's a bad thing per se that you have to approach a heavily defended base differently. But I don't really mind either way, I can also see the point that siege-focussed monsters shouldn't get downed too easily by turrets. Ents actually have better armor against turrets already than most other units or monsters, but not as good as mechanical siege engines like rams or catapults.

I know LoM, and I always used them in "Throw rock" mode.
This was just random situation, as I have described in above, and I noticed something  very "unusual" in my opinion. From logic reasons I think this is I would dare to say "without sense". There is enough counter of ents in game, and I honesty think that regular arrows should tickle them, not to make pile of wood from them. 
Again, I am not experienced in balance or PvP games, just wanted to discuss about this in logical way mostly...

Best regards,
Crag

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, I am quite experienced in PvP games, and I can assure you they are strong enough. Any more armor and they'll be frighteningly strong, they are perfect right now as is. Again, if somebody is stupid enough to send a single Ent into your base in a PvP game, it should be killed by your defense, not be able to wreck your entire base by itself. Rams can be killed very easily in melee, this is not true of ents, they aren't even very vulnerable to Heroes anymore.

[CragLord]

Well, I am quite experienced in PvP games, and I can assure you they are strong enough. Any more armor and they'll be frighteningly strong, they are perfect right now as is. Again, if somebody is stupid enough to send a single Ent into your base in a PvP game, it should be killed by your defense, not be able to wreck your entire base by itself. Rams can be killed very easily in melee, this is not true of ents, they aren't even very vulnerable to Heroes anymore.

If this is also statement from experience of other balance or beta testers, I am completely fine with that, but as I saw some of them are not sharing that thought.
I don't wanted to point on ents overpowering in this melee situation Elite, just wanted to point on "logical" situation here.
Also it is supposed to have upgraded defensive structures (arrows type on defensive structures, meant towers) in one way, when enemy comes with 2,3 ents (or even that single one ) in middle of your base. And those upgraded arrows should wreck them not regular ones.
Again, I just pointed on situation with that one ent, and I mainly use them to do job from distance.
As I have said, if the rest of players are fine with this, I am fine also. Just wanted to point on this situation at first place.

Best Regards,
Crag

[Elite KryPtik]

I wasn't able to understand most of that post Crag

Anyways the main reason I am against this is because, to my knowledge, its impossible to increase resistance against a single type of arrow. They would have to increase resistance against all ranged attacks, which is what I am against. If this is really such a problem and the team can in fact increase resistance against specific arrow types from defensive structures, I guess that's fine.