Aesthetic Improvements for Lothlórien/Mirkwood

• Aesthetic Improvements for Lothlórien/Mirkwood von CragLord am 29 Nov, 2015 22:28
• Hello everyone,
  
  Encouraged by idea of my previous topic from Dwarven suggestion board, I have finally decided to open this topic in Lothlórien section.
  I am opening this topic because I expect a lot of lore discussion (I hope good one) about suggestions which will be proposed here, reasons why we should implement them in game etc. That is main reason why I want to separate it from "Brief Lothlórien Suggestions" thread. So in general, this will be a topic for "Lore wise" suggestions in the most cases which will be followed by good lore discussion and "rich" info content. I don't say that suggestions on Brief Lothlórien Suggestions topic are not lore wise or similar, just want to make difference between instant suggestion thought and longer prepared suggestions with solid lore analysis as base.
  I presume that the most of suggestions will be graphically oriented details or complete new graphical proposals which are lore justified etc. 
  
  Because of preview, I will orderly update topic with already discussed suggestions which will be collected on main page, while discussion matters will be included in other comments in topic bellow.
  
  I politely ask companions of Edain to join me on this topic and share their thoughts.  
  
  Best Regards,
  Crag
  
  
  

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  List of Suggestions:
  
  
  

  Visual and name change for this tier one power.
  Integrate in this current change:
  
  

  

  
  Official Lothlorien Herald Horn look instead of dwarven random symbol:
  
  

  

  
  And rename power to some more lore accurate name:
  "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn" or "Lothlórien Horn" or "Horn of Galadhrim".
  
  Source image: http://postimg.org/image/y6awr9vz7/full/
  
  Also one more graphics I find really fitting, maybe the best so far concerning this suggestion, is this one:
  
  

  

  
  I really find only horn really fitting because of its elegant shape, it is so fitting in my opinion for "sophisticated" elves, in this case Telerin kind which is famous for love of music in general. And with those notes, I personally think it is much better then current dwarven symbol.
  
  Source image: http://s5.postimg.org/h7b53hzj9/Horn_Notes_Source.png
  Note source image: http://s5.postimg.org/vvm1ekzzb/notes.jpg
  
  Here is "first" finished "prototype" :
  
  

  

  
  

  
  

  First of all, I think that current button set is good, but it is not correlated in consistency terms with current look of Grimbeorn in game. Because of that I have tried to create new set which corresponds to Grimbeorn better in my opinion.
  As Grimbeorn have been presented as "gray" oriented in color of bear and hair, I found some buttons a bit out of place.
  Let's take a look of current  of Human and bear form:
  
  

  

  
  So, I will start from first button, it is button for Human form/Bear form. Currently Grimbeorn is using these two buttons for this palantir slot:
  
  
  First, bear form look isn't correlated to Grimbeorn's bear form. Current one fits to Beoringer bear form in color terms. Second, Human form button also isn't correlated to Grimbeorn at all. It is Beorn human form button. So, I have prepared next buttons for this palanitir slot,
  For Bear form I have prepared this one:
  
  

  Grimbeorn's Bear form palantir button

  Button 65x65

  
  This look corresponds to gray haired bear form of Grimbeorn. I tried to find some "fierce" bear look simply because "Grimbeorn" means "Fierce bear".
  
  

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  For human form I have prepared next one:
  
  

  Grimbeorn's Human form palantir button

  Button 65x65

  
  
  I really find's current human form button out of place. It is correlated to Beorn's game look. Grimbeorn as unique hero and character deserves new one which is more correlated to his current look. I have tried to use some shotcuts from game, but sadly I couldn't create good button. I think this proposed one is decent, and it corresponds in color term very nicely to current game look. There is gray color of beard and hair as brown color of tunic which Grimbeorn wear in game currently.
  
  

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  Now, to take a look on Deadly Bite button in game:
  
  
  
  Again, I found a color dismatch here. Button is really good, but Grimbeorn is gray bear not brown one.
  So I have just tried to improve that.
  
  For Deadly Bite button I have prepared this one:
  
  

  Grimbeorn's Deadly Bite palantir button

  Button 65x65

  
  

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  And for the last button, War Cry one.
  Currently in game this button is same for Grimbeorn and Beorn. Current one is this:
  
  
  
  No matter how much epic is that german chief from Gladiator movie , I really find this picture is color terms a bit out of place for "Gray" Grimbeorn.
  So I have tried to find some picture which is similar to current one, but more corresponding in color terms. I think I have found a good one, which correpsonds to Grimbeorns better in color terms:
  
  

  Grimbeorn's Battle Cry palantir button

  Button 65x65

  
  This picture is more correlated to Old Fierce Grimbeorn then a current one. They are similar, but first one because of Black color and beard is more correlated to Beorn's lore description. This button maybe looks a bit different then Grimbeorn in game currently, but I think it fits nicely to nature of ability which is battle cry, and beside that it fit in color term nicely to Grimbeorn description.
  
  

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  Concerning palantir portrait and selective button, I have found them really unique and cool, so I haven't change them. Maybe some minor change which could be applied to them is to make bear side more gray in color. Simply small consistency change.
  

  
  

  New graphics for look of casting area of power:
   
  
  
  or this one:
  
  

  
  

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• #1 von CragLord am 29 Nov, 2015 22:30
•     I felt free to post new comment now as first official proposal on this topic and first one need to have regular space for suggestion list.
     
      So as my first official suggestion, I will start with Lothlórien's tier one power: Horn of Ñoldor.
  First what I really found inappropriate was look of area effect in game.
  That is white circle with some (I think it is dwarven) strange symbol. It is not so common for elves.
  
  

  

  
  So, I tried to find some appropriate "Horn" look for this visual effect, and I have found few good candidates but all of them were just "horns". Wooden horns, Cow looking horns, metal horns... Simply Elves are sophisticated beings and it was always strange to me that elf is able to use that kind of horn as regular war "gadget". They are more sophisticated then using animal horns similar to Rohan's one or even Gondor's "sophisticated" one. So I continue with my further search and I found one horn which is perfect in my opinion. It is official Lothlórien's horn model from Weta workshop which is used during during shooting Lord of the Rings:
  
  Source link: http://scrapbook.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/characters/celeborn/view/8568
  
  It is official Lothlórien Heraldic Horn, and I think it is perfect candidate for integration in that visual area effect in game.
  
  

  

  
  As you can see from that source picture, it is in same locker with other offical Lothlórien items such as Celeborn's Necklace, Celeborn's Crown, Galadriel's Crown and Nenya etc. So I recommended this horn as official horn in that area look. No matter for team decision I have processed it and prepared it in form for integration:
  
  Link: http://postimg.org/image/y6awr9vz7/full/
  
  Also what is nice to notice on that picture is official small banner of Lothlórien ruling house which is attached to horn, or to be precise probably Galadriel banner. Official standard of Galadriel is on that banner. I think it is one more reason to implement it in game in this way.
  
  

  

  
  that standard already exist in game on official Lothlórien banner but in a bit different color:
  
  

  

  
  Now to my second part concerning changes of this power, I have to suggest that we change title of it. Simply Horn of Ñoldor is not lore accurate. I mean, in my opinion.
  Simply Elves which inhabit Golden woods of Lothlórien are not Ñoldors. They are almost completely Telerin Elves. The Galadhrim or the Tree-people were the Elves, mostly Silvan in origin, who inhabited the woods of Lothlórien. Or to be accurate they are mix of Silvan Elves and Nandors.
  
  Official link: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadhrim
  
  For "Division of the Elves" check this link: http://elvenesse.net/elves/elves.php
  
  So in general there is no link between them and Ñoldors, except fact that Galadriel is Ñoldor in origin, and probably only true Ñoldor between them. Because of their origin and history facts (they never was in true alliance with Ñoldor, during second age and battle  Battle of Dagorlad they never fought with Ñoldors, they were always with their Mirkwood cousins. In other words, they cared about history, origin etc), I recommend that we change title of power from current Horn of Ñoldor to something like "Horn of Galadhrim" or "Lothlórien Horn" or "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn" etc
  Simply Elves of Lothlórien will probably get more inspired in battle if they hear some of their own horn then Ñoldor one, no matter their leader is Ñoldor.
  
  So, what do you think about this suggestion?
  
  Best regards,
  CragLord
• #2 von Adamin am 29 Nov, 2015 22:54
• But since Galadriel is a Noldor, wouldn't that mean for the Power that the Horn is ordered by Galadriel and works as her herald?
  
  Also the geometric symbol fits quite well to the name, after all the Noldor were very dwarf-like in their crafts and thoughts.
• #3 von Odysseus am 29 Nov, 2015 22:55
• Pretty much agree. Accurate and well-reasoned, as is often the case with your suggestions.
• #4 von CragLord am 29 Nov, 2015 23:19
• Zitat von: Adamin am 29 Nov, 2015 22:54

  But since Galadriel is a Noldor, wouldn't that mean for the Power that the Horn is ordered by Galadriel and works as her herald?
  
  Also the geometric symbol fits quite well to the name, after all the Noldor were very dwarf-like in their crafts and thoughts.
  

  
  Concerning your first part of comment,
  I can see, we probably can watch on this in way you described. In same way, Galadriel is Ñoldor, but that doesn't mean that her personal sound or "herald" should be Ñoldor's Horn. At fist place in this situation, she is holy leader of Lothlorien, in that term, her herald is probably Lothlorien horn.   But simply I think that name Horn of Ñoldor doesn't fit from many aspects. First origin, there is a lot of lore facts for those Telerin Elves wouldn't use official Ñoldor horn as their own. It is matter of their identity etc. If it is described as Horn of Ñoldor then it is Ñoldor horn...
  Would they find that horn as more inspirational sound, no matter it is " Ñoldorin herald" of their lady instead some of their own? Someone which defines their identety long before Galadriel started to be one of their leaders?
  Second, "history lore facts" they never liked Ñoldors in some special way and they never had any special contact with them. They just have Galadriel as their "holy" leader, while their main military/strategy leader is Celeborn, who is of Sindarin ancestry. I just want to say, I have suggested visual change, but firstly I wanted to change title of power. Visual proposal followed and I thought I have found perfect change because if it official stuff from movies and weta.
  Simply those Galadrim Elves have their own marks no matter about Galadriel "spiritual" influence on them.  She is only link between them and Ñoldors. But that is not reason to power of faction should be called Horn of Ñoldor.
  Simply name "Horn of Ñoldor" is too official and too general for faction which is not Ñoldorin in origin or any other way. And I hardly propose change of name of this power because of that. Ñoldor oriented faction will be Imladris, in history, origin and all other terms. So this name could be translated there in some way.
  
  I mean, we could watch it also as "herald" of Ñoldorin princess, but also in that case, not matter she is Ñoldor, I really find current name too general for Sindarin faction in origin which has complete history correlated in Telerin term. Simply in that situation we can call it "Galadriel Heraldic Horn" or something similar but not Horn of Ñoldor, it is too general for Galadrim Elves. I hope you understand core of this proposal from my aspect.
  
  Second, concerning your statement about visual change. Current one is dwarven, and personally I presume like the most of users, I don't know what that symbol presents. I agree Ñoldors and Dwarves are very similar in their crafts, but is that really reason for "Ñoldor named power" to have dwarven graphics or visual effect correlated in that way. I know dwarves build their letters from Ñoldor's one, and that runes are in origin Tengwar Ñoldorin, but again, I really don't see  dwarven graphic element to fit into Ñoldor power area look etc.
  Simply using look of letters of Tengwar Ñoldor as secondary picture effect and some other elementary things related to Ñoldors (their weapons, armour, anvil (correlated with their craft) etc) we could make very fitting graphics for the most of Ñoldor powers from power meni, which will have sense.
  But using dwarven graphics made by non lore related "vanila" game (in some ways) I am honesty against such things. With some creative ideas we could make much better for Ñoldorin Elves, but that is matter for some other time, now we are speaking about Lothlorien (And we have enough places where we use that dwarven graphic symbol in correlated dwarven palantir, so it is not eliminated at all ).
  
  Now concerning my proposal, the most accurate name (with current description of power) is "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn" or "Lothlórien Horn". New look which is more sophisticated in design to the elves and it brings that elven touch. They  were not using animals horns etc.
  But also interesting thing is that with that small banner (with Galadriel personal standard on it) look is perfect in my opinion. It is symbol of their "holy" leader, but it is oriented to Lothlórien not to Ñoldorin side of her personality (she is daughter of Finarfin, and that house have totally different sign), because of that I think that horn as new area look will be great. Standard already exist on unit banner in game, as I have pointed out. I think Galadriel started using this standard when she (with Celeborn) replaced Amroth as leader of Lothlorien. Because of that I think that new visual is totally fits this power, it is totally oriented for Lothlorien.
  
  P.S.1. That is also official name of that horn in movie. Check source link, zoom picture on bottom.
  
  P.S.2. In movies there was serious "lapsus" with those sounds, I meant why they used same sounds in general for elves(Rivendel and Lothlórien while for istance Mirkwood get new one). That reflected on this game also. PJ created fictional scene in second lotr movie and there we first time hear Lothrorien horn and after that we know it as Elven horn or to be precise Lothlórien horn. In hobbit it is also used for Ñoldor soldiers so I presume because of that you have also named this power in current way (and Galadriel ancestry was one more thing for that name).
  Ñoldor horn and Lothlórien horn should be different sounds. But that is became to official as recognizable sign, so there is no point of discussing about sound change. But in difference of that (as we are shortened by one sound in movie), we should point on those difference between Rivendel and Lothlórien faction as mostly Ñoldorin and Telerin origin in places where we could. And this small change is one of those places where we can point this out.
  And I think it is lore wise.
  
  

  Zitat von: Odysseus am 29 Nov, 2015 22:55

  Pretty much agree. Accurate and well-reasoned, as is often the case with your suggestions.
  

  
  Thanks man.
  
  Best Regards,
  CragLord
• #5 von Walküre am 30 Nov, 2015 00:03
• Very interesting debate.
  
  Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien and its 'supreme' guide.
  But, the particular thing is that she is herself an exception in her realm (compared also to other realms), being the greatest Noldo left in Middle Earth (and one of the greatest in general as a member of the original Noldorin Royal Family of Aman) yet being as well at the head of a realm mainly formed by Elves of another ethnicity and with another millennial tradition as it is the one of the Sindar.
  
  Galadriel is the source of all the holiness of Lórien and sustains its integrity against the enemies and the action of Time; but I always regarded her as someone different from all the common visions we could have of a Ruler/King/Queen/Monarch intended as the head of the realm and personification of its whole history and culture.
  
  She kind of exits these common schemes becoming indeed a real exception in Middle Earth, being not the 'regular' and traditional military and 'political' leader, but more a sort of stranger and ethereal divine being come from far mysterious lands as an Angel among mortals, and in the Tolkien I think that we have plenty of proofs that could determine this sort of exceptional condition, from the Years of the Trees to the 'current' War of the Ring'.
  
  That's why I always see Celeborn as the true traditional and political leader of Lothlórien, being himself a military and political leading figure among his people and an important figure in the Sindarin tradition as once a royal member of the court of Elwë in Doriath (and that's why he eventually meets with Thranduil at the end of the War to redetermine the new borders of the greater woodland kingdoms of Lórien and Mirkwood, symbolising indeed his 'administrative' status as a political and military ruler).
  
  Therefore, thinking that the fundamental and holy presence of Galadriel (yet consisting in an exception as written above) may infuse the realm of Lórien of any specific and particular Noldorin aspect in its history and culture would be a mistake, I guess.
  The realm of Lórien is not 'intended' to carry on or be a representative of the millennial Noldorin culture and Memory Middle Earth, nor is it really characterised by significant Noldorin traits as the past real Noldorin realms.
  
  Rivendell might legitimately be considered the 'keeper' of every Noldor-related elements left in Middle Earth, and the very few Elven settlements of Lindon as well.
  But just not Lothlórien, since it carries on the equally great and millennial tradition of the Sindar/Nandor of Middle Earth.
  
  Then, I support the change of the spell's title, currently suitable more for Rivendell than this faction.
  But, I would also oppose to any involvement of Galadriel in it.
  The strength of Galadriel and its relationship with her people is something really magical and unique, different from the other common examples that we have though great they could be 
• #6 von CragLord am 30 Nov, 2015 14:08
• Well said, Walk.
  
  I agree that Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien, and holy leader of those elves, and that Celeborn is their more traditionally oriented leader.
  No matter of Galadriel's influence on them, I really find (as I have described in detail in previous comment of mine) general title Horn of Ñoldor as inappropriate one for Galadrim Elves.
  I will just once more underline something about this.
  I think that current visual change I suggested is perfect because of freedom it gives.
  First, it is obviously "herald" of Galadriel, because of that banner with her standard. But that doesn't mean it is Horn of Ñoldor, or it has any connections with Ñoldors, no matter to her ancestry.
  In that time she is "holy" ruler of Lothlórien, so it is official horn of Lothlórien with standard of their "holy" leader. Nothing more in my opinion. Same is with their official banner. It is banner, it is not banner of Ñoldors, it is official banner of Lothlórien elves and it has Galadriel's standard on it as I have pointed out, and showed on picture.
  Lindon's (Ereinion's one also), Imladris banners those are Ñoldor's official banners in Middle Earth (just for lore comparison).
  In that way of thinking we could suggested new visual change as proper official "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn".
  
  Greetings,
  CragLord
  
  
• #7 von Walküre am 30 Nov, 2015 15:42
• Zitat von: CragLord am 30 Nov, 2015 14:08

  Well said, Walk.
  
  I agree that Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien, and holy leader of those elves, and that Celeborn is their more traditionally oriented leader.
  No matter of Galadriel's influence on them, I really find (as I have described in detail in previous comment of mine) general title Horn of Ñoldor as inappropriate one for Galadrim Elves.
  I will just once more underline something about this.
  I think that current visual change I suggested is perfect because of freedom it gives.
  Fist, it is obviously "herald" of Galadriel, because of that banner with her standard. But that doesn't mean it is Horn of Ñoldor, or it has any connections with Ñoldors, no matter to her ancestry.
  In that time she is "holy" ruler of Lothlórien, so it is official horn of Lothlórien with standard of their "holy" leader. Nothing more in my opinion. Same is with their official banner. It is banner, it is not banner of Ñoldors, it is official banner of Lothlórien elves and it has Galadriel's standard on it as I have pointed out, and showed on picture.
  Lindon's (Ereinion's one also), Imladris banners those are Ñoldor's official banners in Middle Earth (just for lore comparison).
  In that way of thinking we could suggested new visual change as proper official "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn".
  
  Greetings,
  CragLord
  
  

  
  So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
  Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.
  
  I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference 
  
  I support a graphical change as well.
  The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
  What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition 
  
  There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.
  
  

  
  
  
• #8 von CragLord am 30 Nov, 2015 21:43
• Zitat von: DieWalküre am 30 Nov, 2015 15:42

  
  So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
  Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.
  
  I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference 
  
  I support a graphical change as well.
  The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
  What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition 
  
  There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.
  
  

  
  
  

  
  That is also reasonable suggestion.
  Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin (I would say Telerin mainly) realm in the War of the Ring, of course mainly because of Lady of Light and her influence.
  I want to say, that I like also this suggestion, and I have analyzed it in some way as you will see.
  As we know first Elves who inhabited the woods of Lothlórien was mostly Silvan and Nandor elves. Later as you have said in second age, after destruction of Beleriand, many of the Sindar of Beleriand migrated eastward. Some of them inhabited woods of Lothlórien (or in that time woods of Laurelindórenan).
  Sindar boosted culture of their Silvan relatives. Even Sindarin replaced official Silvan language. So influence on those elves by Sindar was great on them.
  Later when last ruler of Sindar line die (Amroth drown in his attempt to reach Valinor), Galadriel and Celeborn guided those elves. Under their leadership, elves of Lothlórien prosper.
  So when we sum all lore facts, "citizens" of Lothlórien in time of War of the Ring are mostly Silvan in origin (mixed with Sindar and Nandor) which were firstly influenced by Sindar culture and later guided by Lady of Light (and Celeborn ofc).
  So there is enough reasons to call it Horn of Sindar but also there is enough reasons not to do so. Because of that I think that general name "Horn of Lothlórien" or similar title is the best. Simply they are mix of three Teleri families and there is no need to point out any of names of those families. They are know as Galadhrim, and they present Teleri mix. As Sindar inluenced them during second age, so Gladriel did in third age.
  My intention here was to eliminate that Ñoldor term from title of power, as it was so general in my opinion of those elves and wrong. And I tried hardly to explain why I think it is wrong in general term of it (lore and identity...).
  Now concerning visual change, I hardly disagree about Sindarin symbol. As I have said, picture I have suggested is official Horn of Lothlórien. And I think it is the best choice. First, finally I have found some horn which is elegant in shape and appearance, it is of elven taste (not some animal horn etc).
  Second, there is small banner on it with sign of Galadriel. It is her official standard as ruler of Lothlórien (as I have said it is not correlated with her Ñoldor side), and it is present on official banner of those elves. So it is hard correlated with Lothlórien, and we should watch it in that way.
  Horn look with that Galadriel standard doesn't indicate anything to Sindarin or Nandor or Silvan side of this elves, it indicates on Lothlórien as unity or them in moment of WotR.
  Also concerning Tingol's standard, I think it is wrong, simply because there is no heir of Tingol to use that standard as heritage. Celeborn was maybe member of his court and noble of Doriath, but he wasn't his heir. So I think it is wrong from that aspect to use officail Elwe's standard in any term for Lothlórien. Simply if we had some offical standard of Celeborn, we could pointed that out and so pointed out Sindar side. But using Tingol's standards is wrong in my opinion. "Similar" situation with Galadriel, she is using her own standard as ruler of Lothlórien. She isn't using nothing similar to standard of Finarfin. Good example for comparison I think.
  No matter of that opinion of mine I have created some version of this picture for "Horn of Sindar". I am against it!   
  
  

  
  

  
  

  

  
  In second version I used official standard of Tingol which is reconstructed from Tolkien scratch, that one you suggested isn't colored in right way.
  
  

  

  
  I tried to use Sindarin in that picture, and I hope it is in good form and "meaning".
  Again, I think it is not lore wise to use Tingol sign or to Sindar name about this suggestion. I have tried in first part of comment to describe that.
  Also, Horn of Sindar is better then current name, and it is more lore wise. So if my initial proposal isn't good for team, I would recall on this one. After all there is enough lore facts to integrate this but I just think that global "Lothlorien" situation is just better.
  So we have  second mini proposal also in some way about this if my statement is wrong about those Sindarin things. (Precautions from my side, I know that my knowledge about Elves isn't in your rank Walk. )
  
  Edit: My "last" work about this:
  
  

  

  
  I think that shape of horn with those notes is perfect as suggestion for this Elves who are 100% Telerin in origin, and they are known as music lovers in general, as Ñoldors were famous as craftmen etc. So I think this is my suggestion number one.
  
  Best Regards,
  Crag
• #9 von Gandalf7000 am 02 Dez, 2015 15:34
• Hello! I have a proposal about Lothlorien warriors. I think they should have not just swords but shields as well. I found this picture in worldbuilder : http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/243153-albums7922-picture104235.jpg  that indicates that there already is such a model of elven warriors with shields. I mean, c'mon even orcs have shields, but elves don't?
   I found the quote from Lord of the rings wiki about the shields of silvan elves:
  
   "Shields were also used by the Elves and highly decorated in Elf-fashion, like their armour. Not much is described regarding shields, only that they were elaborate and protected the user well. Like most shields, they could be used as a weapon as well as a barrier. Unlike the shields used by Dwarves and Men, which were short and round, the Elven shields extended from neck to shin and thus offered premium protection from weapons that could be swung and thrown/fired."
  
  http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/43/Shield.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20080707150834&format=webp
  
  It is said that elven skills at forging weapons and armor surpasses the race of men.
• #10 von CragLord am 02 Dez, 2015 16:52
• Zitat von: Gandalf7000 am 02 Dez, 2015 15:34

  Hello! I have a proposal about Lothlorien warriors. I think they should have not just swords but shields as well. I found this picture in worldbuilder : http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/243153-albums7922-picture104235.jpg  that indicates that there already is such a model of elven warriors with shields. I mean, c'mon even orcs have shields, but elves don't?
   I found the quote from Lord of the rings wiki about the shields of silvan elves:
  
   "Shields were also used by the Elves and highly decorated in Elf-fashion, like their armour. Not much is described regarding shields, only that they were elaborate and protected the user well. Like most shields, they could be used as a weapon as well as a barrier. Unlike the shields used by Dwarves and Men, which were short and round, the Elven shields extended from neck to shin and thus offered premium protection from weapons that could be swung and thrown/fired."
  
  http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/43/Shield.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20080707150834&format=webp
  
  It is said that elven skills at forging weapons and armor surpasses the race of men.
  

  
  Hi there.
  
  Well, there are nice proofs in lore (if this is true what you have said) for Silvan shield implementation. But those shields which you have proposed are shields of  Ñoldors (by weta and LotR movies). And those models of shields (almost same but whole in yellow) will be presented in Imladris faction.
  That shield which you are proposing is very similar to shield of Gil-galad, and he was High King of Ñoldor. So in general if you want some good improvement for current Lothlórien swordsmen you must suggest some model which is related to Telerin elves or Galadhrim to be precise. Currently in weta works or any of Lotr movies I haven't see those models, but we shouldn't implement shields of Ñoldors for Galadhrim, that is for sure! 
  
  P.S So or to find some really corresponding models with description in lore about those Silvan Shields, or to make them using that description. But team shouldn't use model of Ñoldorian shileds for Silvan elves (Galadhrim) for sure. That is not lore wise, and as I said, those models you suggested will be presented in Imladris.
  
  Regards,
  CragLord
  
• #11 von Walküre am 02 Dez, 2015 17:06
• Zitat von: CragLord am 30 Nov, 2015 21:43

  Zitat von: DieWalküre am 30 Nov, 2015 15:42

  
  So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
  Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.
  
  I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference 
  
  I support a graphical change as well.
  The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
  What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition 
  
  There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.
  
  

  
  
  

  
  That is also reasonable suggestion.
  Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin (I would say Telerin mainly) realm in the War of the Ring, of course mainly because of Lady of Light and her influence.
  I want to say, that I like also this suggestion, and I have analyzed it in some way as you will see.
  As we know first Elves who inhabited the woods of Lothlórien was mostly Silvan and Nandor elves. Later as you have said in second age, after destruction of Beleriand, many of the Sindar of Beleriand migrated eastward. Some of them inhabited woods of Lothlórien (or in that time woods of Laurelindórenan).
  Sindar boosted culture of their Silvan relatives. Even Sindarin replaced official Silvan language. So influence on those elves by Sindar was great on them.
  Later when last ruler of Sindar line die (Amroth drown in his attempt to reach Valinor), Galadriel and Celeborn guided those elves. Under their leadership, elves of Lothlórien prosper.
  So when we sum all lore facts, "citizens" of Lothlórien in time of War of the Ring are mostly Silvan in origin (mixed with Sindar and Nandor) which were firstly influenced by Sindar culture and later guided by Lady of Light (and Celeborn ofc).
  So there is enough reasons to call it Horn of Sindar but also there is enough reasons not to do so. Because of that I think that general name "Horn of Lothlórien" or similar title is the best. Simply they are mix of three Teleri families and there is no need to point out any of names of those families. They are know as Galadhrim, and they present Teleri mix. As Sindar inluenced them during second age, so Gladriel did in third age.
  My intention here was to eliminate that Ñoldor term from title of power, as it was so general in my opinion of those elves and wrong. And I tried hardly to explain why I think it is wrong in general term of it (lore and identity...).
  Now concerning visual change, I hardly disagree about Sindarin symbol. As I have said, picture I have suggested is official Horn of Lothlórien. And I think it is the best choice. First, finally I have found some horn which is elegant in shape and appearance, it is of elven taste (not some animal horn etc).
  Second, there is small banner on it with sign of Galadriel. It is her official standard as ruler of Lothlórien (as I have said it is not correlated with her Ñoldor side), and it is present on official banner of those elves. So it is hard correlated with Lothlórien, and we should watch it in that way.
  Horn look with that Galadriel standard doesn't indicate anything to Sindarin or Nandor or Silvan side of this elves, it indicates on Lothlórien as unity or them in moment of WotR.
  Also concerning Tingol's standard, I think it is wrong, simply because there is no heir of Tingol to use that standard as heritage. Celeborn was maybe member of his court and noble of Doriath, but he wasn't his heir. So I think it is wrong from that aspect to use officail Elwe's standard in any term for Lothlórien. Simply if we had some offical standard of Celeborn, we could pointed that out and so pointed out Sindar side. But using Tingol's standards is wrong in my opinion. "Similar" situation with Galadriel, she is using her own standard as ruler of Lothlórien. She isn't using nothing similar to standard of Finarfin. Good example for comparison I think.
  No matter of that opinion of mine I have created some version of this picture for "Horn of Sindar". I am against it!   
  
  

  
  

  
  

  

  
  In second version I used official standard of Tingol which is reconstructed from Tolkien scratch, that one you suggested isn't colored in right way.
  
  

  

  
  I tried to use Sindarin in that picture, and I hope it is in good form and "meaning".
  Again, I think it is not lore wise to use Tingol sign or to Sindar name about this suggestion. I have tried in first part of comment to describe that.
  Also, Horn of Sindar is better then current name, and it is more lore wise. So if my initial proposal isn't good for team, I would recall on this one. After all there is enough lore facts to integrate this but I just think that global "Lothlorien" situation is just better.
  So we have  second mini proposal also in some way about this if my statement is wrong about those Sindarin things. (Precautions from my side, I know that my knowledge about Elves isn't in your rank Walk. )
  
  Edit: My "last" work about this:
  
  

  

  
  I think that shape of horn with those notes is perfect as suggestion for this Elves who are 100% Telerin in origin, and they are known as music lovers in general, as Ñoldors were famous as craftmen etc. So I think this is my suggestion number one.
  
  Best Regards,
  Crag
  
  

  
  Well, I personally opted to focus on the reasons why we should choose 'Horn of the Sindar' 
  
  'Sindar' doesn't obviously imply that this faction is indeed a totally Sindarin realm, nor is it intended to be a 'mere' reflection of what the lost kingdom of Doriath used to be in the First Age.
  I chose it mainly to have another significant reference to a glorious moment of the Elven (Sindarin) History in the Ages of Arda; it's like a very symbolic memory of the past, that I definitely find more conceptual and appealing than a regular but very 'common' and generic 'Horn of Lothlórien' 
  
  And, apart from this symbolic reason, as I have already stated above, the reference of Doriath might be legitimate as well, since Celeborn was a Sindarin Prince of the Court of Thingol, many people of Doriath themselves fled to the East founding what it would have become the Golden Wood in the Third Age, and the 'ruling class' of Lórien (intended as the mightiest and noblest Elves) was mainly Sindarin.
  
  As usual, your graphical efforts are really remarkable 
  I like very much the Doriath symbol of the second version and the concept of the third version itself.
  
  As you may already know, my Mind is a bit 'antiques-based', always seeking for past lore references to include when it's possible 
• #12 von Adamin am 02 Dez, 2015 21:23
• Oh really? So a Noldorin Horn with a focus on Galadriel is bad, but a Sindarin Horn with a focus on Celeborn is okay?
  
  Why not a Silvan Horn?
• #13 von Walküre am 02 Dez, 2015 21:39
• Zitat von: Adamin am 02 Dez, 2015 21:23

  Oh really? So a Noldorin Horn with a focus on Galadriel is bad, but a Sindarin Horn with a focus on Celeborn is okay?
  
  Why not a Silvan Horn?
  
  

  
  Lothlórien is a Sindar-based realm, with a solid and ancient Sindarin 'ruling class', of which the Prince Celeborn is the apex.
  So, taking for granted that the kingdom of Doriath is definitely the most famous and legendary Sindarin realm in this woodland kin's History, a Sindarin Horn might be the wisest and most conceptual choice, in my opinion.
  
  While, although a Noldorin Horn for Galadriel could be logically legitimate, it would infer, I guess, that Galadriel is a 'common' political and military ruler of Lórien, as the other Elven Lords, and that the Noldorin warfare tradition is particularly strong and still present in Lothlórien.
  
  Therefore, as I wrote above, Galadriel is indeed the leader of Lothlórien, but she's a very special exception.
  The 'Angelic Exception' I explained above 
  
  A royal Noldorin Princess from Aman among brave Woodland Elves 
• #14 von CragLord am 02 Dez, 2015 22:03
• Or to be precise, Lothlórien is Silvan realm in basic, hardly influenced by Sindar culture (with smaller % of Sindarin then Silvan propulation), guided by Sindarin ruler and influenced (guided) by "holy" presence of Galadriel.
  One thing is certain, Lothlórien as place is completely Telerin in origin.
  Galadriel is only exception there, as Ñoldor.
  Not to complicate thing anymore, I am against any Ñoldor term in name, tried to explain above, can't write essay again.
  There are enough facts to call power Horn of Silvan, but I think there are more reasons to call it Horn of Sindar, because of that "great" influence of Sindarin Elves on those Silvan natives of Lothlórien. Also we have unique sound in game for Horn of Mirkwood which should be the most accurate place for horn of Silvan, because Mirkwood elves are almost completely Silvan in origin (and in time of WoR).
  I am against both names, simply because I look on Lothlórien as "Lothlórien", place where live all 3 Telerin families, and I shouldn't point any of names in this case.
  Because of that I was for general name : "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn" or "Lothlórien Horn" or "Horn of Galadhrim" etc.
  I was also against that Tingol's sign, I also tried to describe that in my previous comments, but I created that symbol anyway. It was fun, and it is there if team find it as more lore wise!
  In general, just to eliminate that current Ñoldor term.
  And in my opinion I think that picture with only notes and horn is the best choice so far. No ruling standards, just horn of elegant design (of elven taste) with notes (pointing of Telerin love for music).
  That is simply my opinion. 
  
  Regards,
  Crag