Dwarven Hero's New Abilities?

[Sawman]

Hello peoples of middle earth this is my first time posting something on here and I hope your not to harsh on me for my first time and I hope you enjoy

So my idea, with the addition of Nori to Erebor we know that it is possible for dwarf hero's to have mithril without the icon saying that they have it, because Nori automatically gets mithril at level 10. So I propose that when hero's receive their mithril they gain an extra ability. I will list my abilities for each hero I don't have pictures of what they could be or if they are even balanced so please bear with me 

Lets start with Erebor shall we?

King Dain:
His ability would be called "All Hail The King"
Description:
Dain is now king of the lost kingdom of Erebor Allies near Dain are filled with hope that the dwarves will be prosperous once again.
(passive) All dwarves near Dain are healed when out of combat and hero's near Dain gain 30% armor.

Gloin:
His ability would be called "Past Adventurer"
Gloin was one of Thorin Oakenshields companions on their adventure to take back Erebor
For a short time hero's near Gloin and filled with excitement that Erebor is back in rightful hands and gain 20% damage to structures and take 30% less damage from projectiles

Gimli:
His ability would be called "That Still Only Counts As One!"
Gimli encourages hero's around him to fight harder by calling out to them how many lives he has taken
For a short time all hero's near Gimli gain 30% attack speed and hero's near Gimli abilities recharge 35% faster as well

Thorin III: (E)
With Dain,Throin's father becoming King of Erebor we can assume he left his son in charge of the Iron Hills so his ability would be called "Lord Of The Iron Hills"
Now I have two ideas for this ability
One would be that he would upgrade Dains assembly barracks and allow the Iron Hills units to spawn with heavy armor and banner a carrier for free this is because the lord of the IH would send his men to help Erebor with the best outfitted units available
Second which I highly doubt would be to allow the barracks to train ram riders (I don't have my hopes set high for this one)
This ability would be placed like his runes
 
Next we shall travel to the Iron Hills

For Iron hills I had three ideas for Dain but since two of them fit in with Murin and Drar I gave it to them instead

Dain II Ironfoot:
His ability would be called "To The King!"
Dain Ironfoot looks to inspire his dwarves when there is no hope in sight
Dain selects a (IH) hero to inspire his dwarves. This hero now causes knockback with his melee attacks and dwarves near the hero gain 50%armor for a short time

Murin:
His ability would be called "Send In The Goats"
I gave this to Murin because of his "Charge Of The Iron Hills"
Murin sends in the rams of the Iron Hills to run down his foes all rams on the map gain 50%less trample revenge and 30% arrow protection for a short time

Drar:
His ability would be called the "Twirly Whirlies"
I gave this to Drar because siege/building destroyer hero and I know the ballista's from botfa isn't in the game but I am working with what I got so I suggest a ability similar to Gothmogs "Release The Prisoners"
Drar orders his artillery to fire arrow reflecting ammo, for a short time iron hills catapults near Drar deal 50% less damage but units near the catapult are resistant to arrows

Thorin III: (IH)
His ability would be called "Like Father Like Son"
Thorin and Dain fight together as father and son
When Dain and Thorin are near each other Dain gains 30% armor and Throin gains 30% damage (passive)

Now let us venture into the blue mountains

Thorin Oakenshield:
His ability would be called " Will You Follow Me One Last Time?"
Thorin realizes his greedy ways  and asks his friends to fight with him one last time
All dwarf hero's near Thorin gain 35% movement and attack speed as well as regaining all their health for a short time

Dwalin:
His ability would be called " Brotherhood Of The Dwarves"
Dwalin is a fierce warrior willing to do anything to protect his kin
For every member of Thorin's company near Dwalin. Dwalin gains 5% Armor (passive)

Bofur:
His ability would be called " Go Bofur Go"
I have no idea if this is at all possible but my idea is that when this is activated Bofur will start riding a giant from the old goblin faction in vanilla bfme2 and once he wants to dismount the giant it would have a chance to turn on him and try to attack him and you could only ever have one at a time

Balin::
his ability would be called " I Am Getting Too Old For This"
Balin rides a battlewagon(or chariot if they are added) into battle and runs down his enemy's
this battlewagon would show Balin driving the battle wagon instead of the normal dwarf who does and have increased health and constantly heals allies close to it

Bilbo:
His ability would be called "You Don't Have A Home That's why I Came Back"
Bilbo risks his life to save a company member
For a short time Bilbo choses a hero to risk his life for, the selected hero gains 25% armor while Bilbo gains 25% damage but loses 25 % armor   
     
And that about wraps it up folks I would love to hear what you think about it. I know its not all balanced but I hope you get the idea. maybe by adding a extra ability to the dwarf hero's the team can num down how good they are at the moment but any way I hope it was a good read cheers


 




   
 

 

       

[Elite KryPtik]

I fully support adding a new ability for each dwarf hero instead of having the Mithril Shirt as a button, especially Iron Hills and Erebor, due to their low hero count. As for the abilities themselves, I would largely leave that to the discretion of the team, although your ideas are very cool.

[LordDainIronfoot]

First of all welcome to MU I hope you will like it here and enjoy your time to the fullest! :-)

Now I most certainly like the whole idea of Dwarven Heroes getting a New Ability when they receive the Mithril Mail which as Elite said will compensate to a degree for the lack of Heroes for Erebor and especially Iron Hills,since Ered Luin has more than enough I think! And then of course come the fact that ET likes Unique Things and Nori Last Ability with Mithril is one of them and I kinda doubt they will sacrifice than uniqueness,but to that only the Team can answer and I hope they will have no problem with using that for other Dwarven Heroes.

Now I support this idea and I think it can cooperate really good with my Iron Hills Hero Abilities and Roles Thread and will be glad of we make something good from both!

While the Heroes in Edain has Roles and their Abilities are based on their Roles I think it will be nice if the Last Ability which they will get with the Mithril Mail would be something"out" of their Roles,but still something which corresponds with their Character,Strength and Accomplishments in Books and Movies! :-) Similar to what I suggested in my Thread for example for Lord Dain who is mainly Unit Supporter but since IHs lack in Heroes as I said there it will be nice to give them more variety and mix and thus he can get an Ability with the Mithril Mail which will represent how great Warrior  he is!Before I continue I want to know your opinion guys and we can think of Abilities,but I must say some.of those here are really cool and good but I will write about them more when I get home and read them at peace! :-)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

I support this  .

[Hamanathnath]

I support this idea, it would be nice to have an extra ability for the Dwarven heroes.  However, most of the skills you suggest would be too powerful in my opinion, but if there is one I really like the idea for, its Gimli's ability.  I think it would work better if it were used on one hero and for a set time period, both gimli and that hero fought harder to try to get more kills then the other.  Maybe, if possible, the one with less kills has a stronger effect to try to catch up with the other.   

Add the "There is plenty for the both of us.  May the best Dwarf win!" sound clip from the Return of the King film to when gimli uses it, and I would really like that skill. 

Anyways, back on topic, I hope the team considers adding an extra ability to the dwarven heros. 

[The_Necromancer0]

I agree with this a hundred percent

[WarOfTheRingVeteran]

Ow, what the hell, ya got my vote. It's actually a good idea, I see no reason to be against it.

[Sawman]

all I can say is I am really glad people like this idea  I have had it for a while now and decided to post it

As for my hero abilities I listed, they were just some abilities that came to mind I don't expect them to go anywhere

If you have any ability ideas please share because mine are very in balanced some are better and some are worse I will admit but I would love to hear yours, don't be shy we're all friends here

[CragLord]

Hello Sawman,

Welcome to forum!

I will try to be detail in this comment, so I will start from Nori as you have mention him, and mostly you based you whole idea on him.
I really don't know what members of Edain team think about your idea or about Nori case, but my personal opinion is that Nori is added as new scout hero for Erebor with unique system. What I want to say?
It is some "Rich" system which is obviously based on lore or to be precise I think on movie and lore. I presume that ET has used as motive lore fact that Thorin gave Bilbo a royal gift because of his deeds, and in general that Mithril shirt was probably designed for dwarf of royal status, high noble in other words.
And Nori is exactly that in time line of WoR. Because of his "deeds" and past works he enjoy status of rich noble dwarf. So integration of such "rich" system was very cleaver move. They simply with those lore facts filled "hole" in current Mithril system in game in very unique and clever way when we speak about Nori. In my opinion currently in game Mithril system is very unique, and I think ET love it, so I am not sure they will like to remove it. I also share opinion that system with veterans is very nice. And to be clear Rich system is also very unique passive ability, so maybe all of your proposed abilities must be passive (I presume they are), in general dwarven heroes must have passive ability to be able to unlock such bonus. Team should give some detailed answer about this, I just tried to give my objective opinion. Main problem here as I can see is lack of lore reasons to implement mithril in such passive abilities.
Why should for example Bofur, Balin, Drar etc with current description of passive abilites have mithril unlocked on 10? I tried to explain you my point of view on Nori, so can you see difference in lore side of abilities you suggested and current "Rich system" on Nori?
Btw, you are creative one with all those ability names and their content.  Personally I find your suggestions very interesting and there is a lot of potential here for some new abilities, but my personal opinion is that team probably won't change current Mithril system soon.

P.S. I liked idea about Thorin III (E) name of ability and part about barracks as some thought to think about. Also name of Balin's proposed ability is very fitting and nice. Worst thing is about riding giant in my opinion, maybe because I find that scene in movie as the worst possible one in all 6 movies so far.
Also it is really nice to see that complete newbie on forum is aware of balance things, and I also suggest you in your next proposals not to concentrate your efforts on some bonuses numbers etc, but instead on main principle of which you are suggesting. Numbers are pure problem of balance.

Best regards,
CragLord

 

[Elite KryPtik]

Crag, you got his suggestion completely wrong. What he is proposing is to keep the current Mithril system, except when the hero RECEIVES their shirt from the Veterans, they gain a new passive ability instead of having the spot taken up by the current passive "Mithril Shirt" ability, which really does nothing apart from take up space.

[CragLord]

Yes, you have right.   I looked on it maybe in wrong way from "slot" view.
But  should all dwarven heroes have one more ability right now? Is that justified for all 3 factions? Veterans give mithril shirt to heroes and heroes gain mithril to their current passive? Or unlock their passive on 10 lvl? How do you explain this new mechanism?
Is it maybe out of place that Veterans unlock completely new passive ability for hero which isn't correlated to Veteran's potential to make influence on hero so it gain completely new ability? (what did I write here )

[Sawman]

Hello again I think you misunderstand what I want to do Crag Lord my idea is to after a hero receives his mithril from the vets they gain another ability and the mithril icon disappears and the new ability icon appears instead unlocking a new ability I don't mean to get rid of the vet system I quite like it myself

And you are right I never said why I think this should be in the game I figure since the dwarf factions have a low hero count they need an extra ability to make up for it and this is just a way to unlock an ability without leveling up

hope this makes it easier for you understand what I am trying to say cheers 

[Elite KryPtik]

Every other hero in the game has 5 abilities, why is it that Dwarves are limited really to 4 each? Especially considering how few heroes they get on the whole.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I guess the Team point is that the Mithril Mail makes the Dwarven Heroes much more resistant and tough in comparison with other Heroes !BUT I too agree with Elite Mithril or not 4-5 Heroes against 6-9 Heroes is too big of a dfference and a one more Ability will even the odds just a little bit! :-)
But if we most people agree with the idea I think we should start discussing the Abilities themselves!? :-)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)

[Sawman]

Well lord Dain I agree we should start discussing abilities I have already listed mine so you can post your own or go off of mine and  maybe improve my abilities

Thanks for the support of this idea cheers 

[CragLord]

Hello again I think you misunderstand what I want to do Crag Lord my idea is to after a hero receives his mithril from the vets they gain another ability and the mithril icon disappears and the new ability icon appears instead unlocking a new ability I don't mean to get rid of the vet system I quite like it myself

And you are right I never said why I think this should be in the game I figure since the dwarf factions have a low hero count they need an extra ability to make up for it and this is just a way to unlock an ability without leveling up

hope this makes it easier for you understand what I am trying to say cheers 

Yes, I apologize for not understanding your proposal as whole you suggested.
So you are suggesting that when Veterans give Mithril shirt to dwarven hero, that unlocks new passive ability for that hero with some passive bonuses, and among them will be  current bonuses for mithril shirt.
So it is in basic new improved mithril shirt.
I really don't find any problem with this as slot "space", but I find a little problem in concept maybe.
Concerning balance terms, I think that dwarven heroes with mithril mail have very nice bonuses so we can consider that as 5th passive ability from which they very used. It is pretty good defensive ability which reduces all kind of damage. So why at first place you guys see this as some problem as ability in balance terms? Maybe it is hard way to unlock it, but also it can be unlocked from level 1 to level 10.
I think it is better to balance some how number of heroes instead adding more passive bonuses to unique Mithril system and make it as completely new ability.
Also with new look of Thorin III for Iron Hills I presume he will take role of hero killer, so I presume team will also reconsider fact to integrate new hero supporter in game (I find there idea of Narin as good place for improvement of number of heroes concerning Iron Hills).
Sincerely, I understand idea, and in balance terms it probably is right. But simply in concept terms I find it completely out of place. So, don't mind we wrong.
Why in core of  Mithril system idea should we implement this? (I am speaking about concept!)
Why should Veterans be able to unlock new passive abilities with specific properties on different heroes beside those defence bonuses of mitril shirt?
I understand completely as concept Mithril system, Veterans come from Khazad Dum and bring one unique and rare Mithril shirt and they give it to hero, and hero gain excellent bonuses in damage reduction. So why will Veterans be able to unlock new ability to hero as you have describe them? Where do you find proof for that in concept term? I only see there problem. That is all.

Also I spoke about passive ability of Nory, which is very wisely thought. It integrates Mithril in it in very lore wise way. So if you want to make good concept, I presume that you must polish all ideas about abilities in that way. That is my opinion about this.

Again, I find some abilities very cool and especially their titles. 

Regards,
CragLord

[Odysseus]

I share the same view as Craglord. Dwarven heroes are (arguably) the tankiest heroes in the game. They have better stats than most of their counterparts in other races. Then, basically when you give them the Mithril Mail, it is doubled. Additionally, the Mithril Mail is free if you managed to pull off the Travel Camp mechanic. The Mithril Mail is such an amazing piece of gear, that turns heroes like Thorin Oakenshield and Dain into nearly one-man armies. I think it is intentional that it takes a full slot, since it is thus so powerful. Additionally, if the hero dies, it stays when he is revived, so I think that is a positive thing.

However, the ideas in the OP are indeed interesting and nicely put together. Perhaps some heroes could use them, and some not. I think most of the Dwarven Heroes are more than fine. More doesn't always mean better.

Kind regards.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well may be then only  1 or 2 Hereos per Faction can get New Ability with the Mithril Mail,like King Dain II and Thorin III,Lord Dain Ironfoot and Thorin Stonehelm and Thorin Oakenshield and Balin or Dwalin!?  Like the Leaders and Heirs,the most important figures in the Faction!?

Greetings!

[Odysseus]

Actually, I feel that those are the most powerful heroes and they don't need anything extra really. Ironfoot can buff his troops to extremes with his abilities, King Dain can make his troops around him invulnerable when near buildings and simply his leadership is already quite powerful, and Thorin can mass-stun/terrorise and become invulnerable himself and with Balin, he can be turned into Sauron lol.

Anyway, if any dwarven hero would receive a new ability next to the mail, I think it should be the least ''popular'' ones, so to speak, to make them more considerable to purchase. But I wouldn't really know which ones that should be myself, as they all have something great to offer depending on your strategy or the situation.

My concern is that the only way to really make this work without making the Dwarven Heroes overperformant, is to rework their abilities, but this would be irrational, in my opinion.

[Elite KryPtik]

I do not see how giving the Dwarven heroes a new ability after receiving Mithril Mail, be it passive or active, would be overpowered at all. I have played many online games with the Dwarves, and late game Mithril Mail does not make as much of a difference as you seem to think. They are still very killable, especially by leveled up heroes, and since pretty much all other factions get more heroes than them(except Ered Luin) they can just team up on your heroes and win through sheer numbers. As for getting it early game, this is impossible on 95% of maps, because people can just rush your exposed and vulnerable Travel Camp and destroy it, preventing you from getting ponies.

I think that Iron Hills and Erebor definitely need this, and I still think Ered Luin should get it too. They are the OP heroes faction, that's what they are known for.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I agree with Elite,MIthril Mail doesnt make them so OP,it just make them somewhat Tougher!But still even without Leveled Up Heroes you can kill them no to hard with Archers and Spearmans in enough Nubmers,and when amongst those Spearmans and Archers you have few Heroes it is even eiser and taking in consideration how little in Nubmers Erebor and especially IHs Heroes are,it is even easier! And indeed Camp is not something you can use in the first 10 min already!

Greetings!

[CragLord]

 I am not for adding those abilities in this way. Simply this is not as concept so good, so you can implement it in already unique concept of Mithril system. That is main problem here in my eyes. So because of that I am against idea of changing current Mithril system.
Concerning balance discussion, I just think this isn't way to fill holes also.
Change current abilities (active and passive), change armor stats, other stats and "tune" heroes. But don't change Mithril part.
Problem with number of heroes, support and help with polish of some already suggested hero concepts.
I personally think we need to suggest something smart for IH, that faction has only 4 heroes... It is in the worst situation concerning hero numbers. (no matter thay have crazy DragonSlayers)
But filling that balance "hole" and hoping that new passive abilitis will do balance job, I am a bit not convinced in that.

Also as I have said many times over, I think these new suggested abilites are nice, and there is a good material and potential in them. So, we could use them in nice way, but not in suggested one to change unique Mithril system.


Regards,
CragLord

[LordDainIronfoot]

The thing is that not everything can be Unique! Some things just will repeat themselves but yeah as I said the Team will not probably like of losing something unique so yeah little chance I guess!

Well I have suggested re-work on current Abilities and Roles in IHs with 1 more Hero but the Thread pretty much died and the Team didn't answer there so I think we should continue on this Thread since it is at least alive!

Greetings!

[CragLord]

I understand you Dain when you are speaking about "unique" term, but I really find this out of some concept in consistency term.  Also you are right, everything can't be unique, or all suggestions can't be unique, but that is no reason to change some already unique concept.
From consistency term, how you explain situation when Veterans unlock suggested ability for Gloin or Gimli? Simply there is no connection with nature (name, description,effect) of these abilities and term of Veterans.
Ok, Veterans bring mithril from Khazad Dum, but why should they unlock some specific passive which isn't related to them?
That is all.

Narin idea should be reconsidered, messanger idea, Ea already have said that it sound interesing so we should continue with polishing of that idea. Also I presume Thorin III will be hero killer, so some hero supporting role for Narin as messenger sounds pretty logical to me. There is so much potential in that idea. And we can very easily make that Narin topic "älive"!

Regards,
Crag

[KingdomofErebor]

I support these idea, even though I doubt it will be in I especially love the bofur ability !

[Sawman]

Hello again I don't really know what you mean crag lord the mithril has a unique system your right about that, but adding an ability after you get a hero mithril just makes it that more unique, something no other faction has

and thank you kingdom of erebor and most people don't like that bofur ability I'm glad someone does 

[Sawman]

Adding on to what I just wrote
Your saying it wouldn't be lore wise to do this or make sense correct?
Let's use lothlorien for an example when galadreil gives her gifts out of no where to say thrandy he gets new armour and somehow gets a extra row of palace guards to protect him? And your complaining about lore wise I don't mean for this to sound rude in any way but your argument about lore wise in this mod is irrelevant

[CragLord]

Adding on to what I just wrote
Your saying it wouldn't be lore wise to do this or make sense correct?
Let's use lothlorien for an example when galadreil gives her gifts out of no where to say thrandy he gets new armour and somehow gets a extra row of palace guards to protect him? And your complaining about lore wise I don't mean for this to sound rude in any way but your argument about lore wise in this mod is irrelevant

Yes, you understood my opinion in semi correct way.
It is completely natural that you will defend your idea, but you must try to see problem what I am pointing on.
First, about Galadriel Gift system from Lothlórien faction, you shouldn't compare these two systems, they are similar but very different. Let me explain.
Galadriel is hero, and it is unique gifting system which is based on lore facts, it is based on special gifting event during which all members of fellowship of the ring (except Ganalf) gained some special item by Lady Galadriel and Lord Celeborn.
So it is very lore wise thing. One part in this system is that gift for Thranduil, which isn't lore correlated. But it is integrated in system so Gifting system could be connected to all heroes of Lothlórien faction.
This lore "absence" in case of Thrandil is justified as I have said, probably because team wanted that Gifting system works on all heroes from faction.
This isn't reason on which you can base your idea. It is something which isn't lore justified and it presents mini "error" in system (and mod in general), for sake of system's entirety. So it is not reason to add more non lore correlated things in some lore justified and unique systems as Mithril one. That is first thing which you should understand.
Second, you are proposing abilities which are totally out of any correlation with veterans in consistency terms and mithril system in general.
If team have decided to implement Thranduil gift, as armor from movie, armor is equipement part which is correlated with defence of hero as general term and in visual also. And new ability which he gains, is wall formation ability, which is also correlated to defence of hero, or in other words to his protection. So tell me, where is similar correlation between abilities you have suggested and mithril mail  they gain as visual thing etc. Mithril mail is correlated to defence, and veterans are not able to teach Balin to ride chariots or Bofur to ride giant (which is the worst idea ever in my opinion in movies), or Murin to strengthen goat riders etc. Simply there is not consistency correlation in almost all new powers you are suggesting and Veterans or mitrhil system. That's all. And upgrading unique consistent Mithril system with some non correlated passive attributes is completely wrong thing in my opinion. Something which is perfect as concept, shouldn't be "attached" by completely non consistent terms. If you do that, new system will be "mutilated" in consistency etc. I personally won't like to see that. That would crush my experience while playing game.

I hope you luck with developing of this proposal, and take care of this correlation things, simply without them, you are suggesting some random things (in correlation terms) for sake of some "balance" reasons. I personally think there are many other ways to adjust those "balance" issues, but this proposal I see as bad try, with all my respect (don't mind me wrong but concept is something which gives me main part of experience in game). I have really tried to explain my point of view.

Regards,
CragLord

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, there is a way to find a balance here. How about instead of the ability unlocking when the Veterans give the hero the Mithril, instead the veterans can just give the hero the Mithril effect without taking up an ability slot, and the ability just unlocks at level 10? I see no issues with "correlation" or linking the ability to the Veterans in this case.

[Sawman]

I based most of my abilities off of what the hero classes are right now like gloin is a building destroyer so he would give a bonus to heros against building etc
And don't base this off the abilities that I put down they are just things from the movie that I would like to see in the game and I don't see how this is possible any other way other than to get rid of a heros current abilities

[CragLord]

I based most of my abilities off of what the hero classes are right now like gloin is a building destroyer so he would give a bonus to heros against building etc
And don't base this off the abilities that I put down they are just things from the movie that I would like to see in the game and I don't see how this is possible any other way other than to get rid of a heros current abilities

Yes, I am completely aware of that. There is probably no way you can implement such abilities in Mithril system so it remain "unique" as concept. Because of that I was suggesting some other way for balance, maybe also changing of effects of currents hero abilities, changing number of heroes (adding new heroes, try to develop some new hero concepts etc).

Well, there is a way to find a balance here. How about instead of the ability unlocking when the Veterans give the hero the Mithril, instead the veterans can just give the hero the Mithril effect without taking up an ability slot, and the ability just unlocks at level 10? I see no issues with "correlation" or linking the ability to the Veterans in this case.

Yes, you are completely right Elite, and I agree about that.
Personally I am against elimination of that cool informative palantir button about Mithril Mail and its bonuses (it is one of visualizations of this unique system), but I agree, it could work. 

[Sawman]

Well from all this only a team member can really say how this would work either my way or another I hope the team at least looks at this
Time will only tell

[Elite KryPtik]

Getting tired of saying this

The team reads every post, even if they don't respond to them all. Chances are they've already read the entire thread.

[Walküre]

Getting tired of saying this

+1 to Elite's precious repetitions 

Sawman, comments of that kind are really not needed nor productive; one way or the other, the Edain Team always keeps an eye almost on the totality of threads of the forum 
Next time, other posts like that will be inevitably doomed to be deleted for order-aimed reasons.

[Sawman]

 K?