Dwarven Hero's New Abilities?

[CragLord]

Hello again I think you misunderstand what I want to do Crag Lord my idea is to after a hero receives his mithril from the vets they gain another ability and the mithril icon disappears and the new ability icon appears instead unlocking a new ability I don't mean to get rid of the vet system I quite like it myself

And you are right I never said why I think this should be in the game I figure since the dwarf factions have a low hero count they need an extra ability to make up for it and this is just a way to unlock an ability without leveling up

hope this makes it easier for you understand what I am trying to say cheers 

Yes, I apologize for not understanding your proposal as whole you suggested.
So you are suggesting that when Veterans give Mithril shirt to dwarven hero, that unlocks new passive ability for that hero with some passive bonuses, and among them will be  current bonuses for mithril shirt.
So it is in basic new improved mithril shirt.
I really don't find any problem with this as slot "space", but I find a little problem in concept maybe.
Concerning balance terms, I think that dwarven heroes with mithril mail have very nice bonuses so we can consider that as 5th passive ability from which they very used. It is pretty good defensive ability which reduces all kind of damage. So why at first place you guys see this as some problem as ability in balance terms? Maybe it is hard way to unlock it, but also it can be unlocked from level 1 to level 10.
I think it is better to balance some how number of heroes instead adding more passive bonuses to unique Mithril system and make it as completely new ability.
Also with new look of Thorin III for Iron Hills I presume he will take role of hero killer, so I presume team will also reconsider fact to integrate new hero supporter in game (I find there idea of Narin as good place for improvement of number of heroes concerning Iron Hills).
Sincerely, I understand idea, and in balance terms it probably is right. But simply in concept terms I find it completely out of place. So, don't mind we wrong.
Why in core of  Mithril system idea should we implement this? (I am speaking about concept!)
Why should Veterans be able to unlock new passive abilities with specific properties on different heroes beside those defence bonuses of mitril shirt?
I understand completely as concept Mithril system, Veterans come from Khazad Dum and bring one unique and rare Mithril shirt and they give it to hero, and hero gain excellent bonuses in damage reduction. So why will Veterans be able to unlock new ability to hero as you have describe them? Where do you find proof for that in concept term? I only see there problem. That is all.

Also I spoke about passive ability of Nory, which is very wisely thought. It integrates Mithril in it in very lore wise way. So if you want to make good concept, I presume that you must polish all ideas about abilities in that way. That is my opinion about this.

Again, I find some abilities very cool and especially their titles. 

Regards,
CragLord

[Odysseus]

I share the same view as Craglord. Dwarven heroes are (arguably) the tankiest heroes in the game. They have better stats than most of their counterparts in other races. Then, basically when you give them the Mithril Mail, it is doubled. Additionally, the Mithril Mail is free if you managed to pull off the Travel Camp mechanic. The Mithril Mail is such an amazing piece of gear, that turns heroes like Thorin Oakenshield and Dain into nearly one-man armies. I think it is intentional that it takes a full slot, since it is thus so powerful. Additionally, if the hero dies, it stays when he is revived, so I think that is a positive thing.

However, the ideas in the OP are indeed interesting and nicely put together. Perhaps some heroes could use them, and some not. I think most of the Dwarven Heroes are more than fine. More doesn't always mean better.

Kind regards.

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well may be then only  1 or 2 Hereos per Faction can get New Ability with the Mithril Mail,like King Dain II and Thorin III,Lord Dain Ironfoot and Thorin Stonehelm and Thorin Oakenshield and Balin or Dwalin!?  Like the Leaders and Heirs,the most important figures in the Faction!?

Greetings!

[Odysseus]

Actually, I feel that those are the most powerful heroes and they don't need anything extra really. Ironfoot can buff his troops to extremes with his abilities, King Dain can make his troops around him invulnerable when near buildings and simply his leadership is already quite powerful, and Thorin can mass-stun/terrorise and become invulnerable himself and with Balin, he can be turned into Sauron lol.

Anyway, if any dwarven hero would receive a new ability next to the mail, I think it should be the least ''popular'' ones, so to speak, to make them more considerable to purchase. But I wouldn't really know which ones that should be myself, as they all have something great to offer depending on your strategy or the situation.

My concern is that the only way to really make this work without making the Dwarven Heroes overperformant, is to rework their abilities, but this would be irrational, in my opinion.

[Elite KryPtik]

I do not see how giving the Dwarven heroes a new ability after receiving Mithril Mail, be it passive or active, would be overpowered at all. I have played many online games with the Dwarves, and late game Mithril Mail does not make as much of a difference as you seem to think. They are still very killable, especially by leveled up heroes, and since pretty much all other factions get more heroes than them(except Ered Luin) they can just team up on your heroes and win through sheer numbers. As for getting it early game, this is impossible on 95% of maps, because people can just rush your exposed and vulnerable Travel Camp and destroy it, preventing you from getting ponies.

I think that Iron Hills and Erebor definitely need this, and I still think Ered Luin should get it too. They are the OP heroes faction, that's what they are known for.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I agree with Elite,MIthril Mail doesnt make them so OP,it just make them somewhat Tougher!But still even without Leveled Up Heroes you can kill them no to hard with Archers and Spearmans in enough Nubmers,and when amongst those Spearmans and Archers you have few Heroes it is even eiser and taking in consideration how little in Nubmers Erebor and especially IHs Heroes are,it is even easier! And indeed Camp is not something you can use in the first 10 min already!

Greetings!

[CragLord]

 I am not for adding those abilities in this way. Simply this is not as concept so good, so you can implement it in already unique concept of Mithril system. That is main problem here in my eyes. So because of that I am against idea of changing current Mithril system.
Concerning balance discussion, I just think this isn't way to fill holes also.
Change current abilities (active and passive), change armor stats, other stats and "tune" heroes. But don't change Mithril part.
Problem with number of heroes, support and help with polish of some already suggested hero concepts.
I personally think we need to suggest something smart for IH, that faction has only 4 heroes... It is in the worst situation concerning hero numbers. (no matter thay have crazy DragonSlayers)
But filling that balance "hole" and hoping that new passive abilitis will do balance job, I am a bit not convinced in that.

Also as I have said many times over, I think these new suggested abilites are nice, and there is a good material and potential in them. So, we could use them in nice way, but not in suggested one to change unique Mithril system.


Regards,
CragLord

[LordDainIronfoot]

The thing is that not everything can be Unique! Some things just will repeat themselves but yeah as I said the Team will not probably like of losing something unique so yeah little chance I guess!

Well I have suggested re-work on current Abilities and Roles in IHs with 1 more Hero but the Thread pretty much died and the Team didn't answer there so I think we should continue on this Thread since it is at least alive!

Greetings!

[CragLord]

I understand you Dain when you are speaking about "unique" term, but I really find this out of some concept in consistency term.  Also you are right, everything can't be unique, or all suggestions can't be unique, but that is no reason to change some already unique concept.
From consistency term, how you explain situation when Veterans unlock suggested ability for Gloin or Gimli? Simply there is no connection with nature (name, description,effect) of these abilities and term of Veterans.
Ok, Veterans bring mithril from Khazad Dum, but why should they unlock some specific passive which isn't related to them?
That is all.

Narin idea should be reconsidered, messanger idea, Ea already have said that it sound interesing so we should continue with polishing of that idea. Also I presume Thorin III will be hero killer, so some hero supporting role for Narin as messenger sounds pretty logical to me. There is so much potential in that idea. And we can very easily make that Narin topic "älive"!

Regards,
Crag

[KingdomofErebor]

I support these idea, even though I doubt it will be in I especially love the bofur ability !

[Sawman]

Hello again I don't really know what you mean crag lord the mithril has a unique system your right about that, but adding an ability after you get a hero mithril just makes it that more unique, something no other faction has

and thank you kingdom of erebor and most people don't like that bofur ability I'm glad someone does 

[Sawman]

Adding on to what I just wrote
Your saying it wouldn't be lore wise to do this or make sense correct?
Let's use lothlorien for an example when galadreil gives her gifts out of no where to say thrandy he gets new armour and somehow gets a extra row of palace guards to protect him? And your complaining about lore wise I don't mean for this to sound rude in any way but your argument about lore wise in this mod is irrelevant

[CragLord]

Adding on to what I just wrote
Your saying it wouldn't be lore wise to do this or make sense correct?
Let's use lothlorien for an example when galadreil gives her gifts out of no where to say thrandy he gets new armour and somehow gets a extra row of palace guards to protect him? And your complaining about lore wise I don't mean for this to sound rude in any way but your argument about lore wise in this mod is irrelevant

Yes, you understood my opinion in semi correct way.
It is completely natural that you will defend your idea, but you must try to see problem what I am pointing on.
First, about Galadriel Gift system from Lothlórien faction, you shouldn't compare these two systems, they are similar but very different. Let me explain.
Galadriel is hero, and it is unique gifting system which is based on lore facts, it is based on special gifting event during which all members of fellowship of the ring (except Ganalf) gained some special item by Lady Galadriel and Lord Celeborn.
So it is very lore wise thing. One part in this system is that gift for Thranduil, which isn't lore correlated. But it is integrated in system so Gifting system could be connected to all heroes of Lothlórien faction.
This lore "absence" in case of Thrandil is justified as I have said, probably because team wanted that Gifting system works on all heroes from faction.
This isn't reason on which you can base your idea. It is something which isn't lore justified and it presents mini "error" in system (and mod in general), for sake of system's entirety. So it is not reason to add more non lore correlated things in some lore justified and unique systems as Mithril one. That is first thing which you should understand.
Second, you are proposing abilities which are totally out of any correlation with veterans in consistency terms and mithril system in general.
If team have decided to implement Thranduil gift, as armor from movie, armor is equipement part which is correlated with defence of hero as general term and in visual also. And new ability which he gains, is wall formation ability, which is also correlated to defence of hero, or in other words to his protection. So tell me, where is similar correlation between abilities you have suggested and mithril mail  they gain as visual thing etc. Mithril mail is correlated to defence, and veterans are not able to teach Balin to ride chariots or Bofur to ride giant (which is the worst idea ever in my opinion in movies), or Murin to strengthen goat riders etc. Simply there is not consistency correlation in almost all new powers you are suggesting and Veterans or mitrhil system. That's all. And upgrading unique consistent Mithril system with some non correlated passive attributes is completely wrong thing in my opinion. Something which is perfect as concept, shouldn't be "attached" by completely non consistent terms. If you do that, new system will be "mutilated" in consistency etc. I personally won't like to see that. That would crush my experience while playing game.

I hope you luck with developing of this proposal, and take care of this correlation things, simply without them, you are suggesting some random things (in correlation terms) for sake of some "balance" reasons. I personally think there are many other ways to adjust those "balance" issues, but this proposal I see as bad try, with all my respect (don't mind me wrong but concept is something which gives me main part of experience in game). I have really tried to explain my point of view.

Regards,
CragLord

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, there is a way to find a balance here. How about instead of the ability unlocking when the Veterans give the hero the Mithril, instead the veterans can just give the hero the Mithril effect without taking up an ability slot, and the ability just unlocks at level 10? I see no issues with "correlation" or linking the ability to the Veterans in this case.

[Sawman]

I based most of my abilities off of what the hero classes are right now like gloin is a building destroyer so he would give a bonus to heros against building etc
And don't base this off the abilities that I put down they are just things from the movie that I would like to see in the game and I don't see how this is possible any other way other than to get rid of a heros current abilities