Witch King in Angmar and Ringwraiths

[Spacetyrant93]

Hello everybody!
I would like to propose a concept that I have had in mind for a while. As the title says, I would like to propose and discuss some ideas about the Ringwraiths.
Let me say this first: I already asked the Team for them all to have movie armors, and back then the answer was no, mainly for the five wraiths for the reasons that there'd be too many heroes. I understoon their motives and was content, even if I did propose something later (don't remember the details though) but I assure this is a different idea, so please hear me out. Let us start with their leader, the bearer of the Iron Crown, the Witch-King.

Witch-King


Particularly, my focus was to put on his current design and interpretation in Angmar. I mean no offense, but I don't really like his current look. Kind of too bulky, in certain ways in ridicolous amounts, and looks kind of Warcraft-esque in comparison the the more realistic armors seen in all other factions. Only Sauron can be compared in terms of over-armor (but he was a Maia of Aule, so baroque yet functional armor is due at the very least).That much exxagerated armor looks out of place in my opinion, and those shoulders...really? Plus, I know those are his signature features that make him recognizable, but I wouldn't know if this is the place for that helm-crown and the mace. Overall, he is kind of too similar to Mordor's version. Well, not exactly insensate, since it's the same damn character, but I would propose a bit of differentiation. BOTFA has recently provided us with new concepts for the Nazgul and, while those too are kinda over-the-top, I believe they are at least worth considering.


WK on the left


WK in the center

Technically speaking, now movie canon did give off something of Angmar: the armor the WK bears is probably what he wore back then, so one could assume that he's in his royal Black Numenorean (?) battle gear. Whether or not this claim is of any relevance, I wouldn't know, but now a small piece of Angmar has made it to the screen.

Now, we saw Angmar's going throu a re-work, and comparing the new designs with movie armor, they do have more similarities. Plus, the design looks more functional, at least to me. Original concepts had both the Ringwraiths and Sauron have very adherent armor and clothes, to rensemble writhed skeletons, or at least give off the idea of corpses.
So then, I would propose a compromise: unite these two designs. I would say the armor could be primarly movie's, with tweaks here and there, like the shoulders still having the three spikes of the Iron Crown, only smaller, and shorten the 'gown' to show the iron boots under which Angmar is kept. As for the cloth (since technically it has no colors) I'd say all-out Edain color scheme, with the intricate golden decorations and the black-blue cape. Only two points I wouldn't know what to do:

-The helm: I don't dislike the Hobbit's version, especially since it does seem to bear a kind of crown, and as I said before it's technically movie-canon Angmar. But, the old helm assured immediate recognicion of the black king.

-Weapons: A proposal here would be to have him use his old sword and, possibly, the Angmar Staff of the original version. Yet, as said before the flail instantly assures you that's the Witch King.

Nazgul

About the others, all I would propose would be a look upgrade for the Shadow Lord and the Dark Marshall, with some movie features here and there. uning the pictures above and this


I would just propose this

Dark Marshall: the guy with the long mace (Nazgul #3 to the right of the WK) could give some features of his armor to the Dark Marshall, whom should still keep his sword, for that mace's kind of weird (that and too many mace-fanatic villains)

Shadow Lord: 2 possibilities here:
-1: the one with the spear (left of WK), whom I believe to be from Khand, given the exotic look, and the fact that there are at least two of them with that same armor. Animators's laziness aside, Khand was said to be split, with various rulers, so a couple of them could have become Ringwraiths. And the Shadow Lord is said to have been the lord of an insignificant land before becoming a wraith, and technically few ever even name Khand;

-2: the one on Khamul's right with the Trident, almost certainly a Haradrim, and since Easterling and Haradrim can actually be on the field, and the Easterling have their king, it'd be interesting to have Harad's old ruler as well. True, the 'king of insignificant realm' is kinda out of place in this case, plus Suladan is (was?) around, but I still think it would be interesting;

Both these Wraiths have a long weapon, just to offer the possibility of a nazgul with different fighting style not yet seen in game (indeed, few heroes have spears, none has a trident).

On a side note, the wraith with the axe would certainly fit the 'insignificant king' part, given his less complex gear, but doesn't give off the 'Shadow Lord' feeling.

Now, I believe I'm finished. You might have noticed that I do like the movies, wich is totally true, but I really admire and am trying to follow the 'compromise between book and movie' the Team has going on. So, on my part, these are just suggestions, suggestions on which I would like to hear the opinion of you guys. What do you think? And Thanks for reading

[(Palland)Raschi]

I would like to hear the opinion of you guys.

My opinion to this proposal is quite clear: I don't like it at all.
I do not like how the ringwraiths are introduced in the hobbit. Their appearance does not make any sense to me. Why are they even visible, when they are wraiths and even when you can see them, they should should be presented like in the first LOTR movie on the Weathertop.
The witchking should look like the witchking and not like something...well looking weird. I have to admit that the armour of the Witchking in the Edain mod looks a little bit clumpy but I think the Team is going to change this as well.
I am looking forward for their own interpretation.

Besides I do not see any reason why this strange adaption should be introduced for the Nazgul as well. There is no justification that one needs to take that awful design.

[ringbearer]

I agree with you about Witch-king I personaly don't like this shadow lord armor and so on, i don't like these heroes.

Some time ago a had an idea to use these hobbit nazgul armours for castelans , for example one of them keeps current look and 2 others will have a different one and so on.

[Garlodur]

Interesting suggestion, and understandable you'd like the implementation. Some of those models look amazing and it's obvious that the 'costume' designers of the Hobbit movies thought everything through using their creativity to fill up the holes in Tolkien's writing.

However, with designing these costumes for the Ringwraiths they assumed that the Nazgul would in some way want to reference to their might as former rulers. This is quite strange to think because they might have realised that they were being corrupted from within, plus that their kingdom was falling apart; that is, not something you'd be proud of after 'natural' death.

So in my opinion, the way the Edain has portrayed the Nazgûl is still the most sensible combination of lore and artistic interpretation. The leader of the Ringwraiths must have some distinctive features besides the fact that he ruled over Angmar. Hence a combination of a crown and the slinger-mace (whatever it really is called). The armour around it, as introduced to us in LotR, also makes sense because he led the armies of Minas Morgul. Regarding Khamûl, he is the only Ringwraith of whom we know its name and origin, so he deserves the recognition in the form of the awesome helmet. The Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord and sweet implementations from Games Workshop for the sake of giving Mordor some single-hero Nazgûls instead of a battalion.

I am not convinced that all Nazgûl should have distinctive armour and/or weapons because there is nothing we can deduce about their history and origin.

On a final note, I believe that the Witch-King in his current look is too extravagant; too much metal, too many spikes (indeed Warcraftesque), too little mystery, too much focus on the portrayal of sheer power instead of dark magic.
Could the team tone it down a little, by hiding more of his body with cloak, giving him less armour, but leaving his boots and arms covered to symbolize his iron fist.

I hope more people agree with me on this final thing. I do think it should be changed.

[Spacetyrant93]

My opinion to this proposal is quite clear: I don't like it at all.
I do not like how the ringwraiths are introduced in the hobbit. Their appearance does not make any sense to me. Why are they even visible, when they are wraiths and even when you can see them, they should should be presented like in the first LOTR movie on the Weathertop.
The witchking should look like the witchking and not like something...well looking weird. I have to admit that the armour of the Witchking in the Edain mod looks a little bit clumpy but I think the Team is going to change this as well.
I am looking forward for their own interpretation.

Besides I do not see any reason why this strange adaption should be introduced for the Nazgul as well. There is no justification that one needs to take that awful design.

Got it. Whether these are implemented or not little changes for me, and as for the rest, to each his opinion. Their introduction surprised me, but I just enjoyed their presence. We'll see what the Team will do.

I agree with you about Witch-king I personaly don't like this shadow lord armor and so on, i don't like these heroes.

Some time ago a had an idea to use these hobbit nazgul armours for castelans , for example one of them keeps current look and 2 others will have a different one and so on.

Glad you do I just threw it for the heck of it, doesn't matter if changed or not.

Now THAT is an interesting idea. In the end they are ghastly, armored forms roaming Dol Guldur, and Castellans having their appearance would be awesome. This should be suggested more. The funny thing? You get to have nine Castellans in game XD

Interesting suggestion, and understandable you'd like the implementation. Some of those models look amazing and it's obvious that the 'costume' designers of the Hobbit movies thought everything through using their creativity to fill up the holes in Tolkien's writing.

However, with designing these costumes for the Ringwraiths they assumed that the Nazgul would in some way want to reference to their might as former rulers. This is quite strange to think because they might have realised that they were being corrupted from within, plus that their kingdom was falling apart; that is, not something you'd be proud of after 'natural' death.

So in my opinion, the way the Edain has portrayed the Nazgûl is still the most sensible combination of lore and artistic interpretation. The leader of the Ringwraiths must have some distinctive features besides the fact that he ruled over Angmar. Hence a combination of a crown and the slinger-mace (whatever it really is called). The armour around it, as introduced to us in LotR, also makes sense because he led the armies of Minas Morgul. Regarding Khamûl, he is the only Ringwraith of whom we know its name and origin, so he deserves the recognition in the form of the awesome helmet. The Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord and sweet implementations from Games Workshop for the sake of giving Mordor some single-hero Nazgûls instead of a battalion.

I am not convinced that all Nazgûl should have distinctive armour and/or weapons because there is nothing we can deduce about their history and origin.

On a final note, I believe that the Witch-King in his current look is too extravagant; too much metal, too many spikes (indeed Warcraftesque), too little mystery, too much focus on the portrayal of sheer power instead of dark magic.
Could the team tone it down a little, by hiding more of his body with cloak, giving him less armour, but leaving his boots and arms covered to symbolize his iron fist.

I hope more people agree with me on this final thing. I do think it should be changed.

I agree on everything, and have no problem with the Wk and Khamul having their moment of awesome, as for the other two, it was only a small thing for their armored forms, just to spice things in a different way, I like them as they are just fine. Actually, Games Workshop's versions of the Nazgul are my favourites, they are just that awesome.

My point exactly. Hence the suggestion of more tissue, and a cloak, to make him seem both more regal and more 'Witch' King.

I do XD

[The_Necromancer0]

No, no, no, noooooooooooo!!
I prefer so much more how the nazgul are presented in the LOTR, peter jackson shouldn't have changed their looks over in the hobbit. The WK especially, it was nice that we got some added stuff for other nazguls, but to my opinion nazguls are perfect as they are. About the weapons the team has mentioned a couple times that they wouldn't change it even if I can't remember whether it is dues to graphical bugs or just because the work would be humongous

[Spacetyrant93]

This thread was more about the Witch King in Angmar than the actual Nazgul, that was just a skin thing I threw in there. It was just a possibility. I realize it would take a lot of work, I only suggested them as a possibility, them remaining as they are is just fine.

[ThorinsNemesis]

Don't be discouraged, there are people who agree with and like your idea. And I am one of these people. 
Since seeing BOTFA I always wanted to see the Witchking and a few others' armors in Edain; and Angmar is the perfect opportunity! I also had the idea as you that maybe the Witchking could have his Hobbit armor for Angmar. And also, maybe the Shadow Lord can get the design with the spear (left of the Witchking) - I really like it, as it resembles a Khand person or a Black Numenorian. This design, together with the Witchking's, are my favorite from BOTFA and I really find your idea fitting to get these armors in the mod.
Let's hope the Edain Team finds your idea useful 

[(Palland)Raschi]

What I do not get is the fact that the wraith form of of the witch-king has changed during the Hobbit and the LoTR so extremely.
But it is obviously not a piece of armor the invisible wraith is wearing to take form during the fictional Dol-Guldur scene because it is his naked wraith form.
So how can we take this armour to cover the invisible witch-king with ?
I does not make sense to me. Either we accept the BOFA lore and therefore the witch king must not have this armour in real but only as a wraith, or we ignore it an just take the armour...just because it is suppose to look cool (what I do not think personally).
But in the second case you can not argue that it is in accord with the movies.

[Der Dunkle König]

Even though I don't really like how the Witchking looks at the moment I don't want to see the design from "The Battle of the Five Armies" in the Edain-Mod. I am sure the Edain team can find a better solution for the Witchking's model.
And I have no idea why one would change the designs of the two Nazgûl, that look absolutly brilliant. The BOTFA-designs can't compare to them.

[Spacetyrant93]

Don't be discouraged, there are people who agree with and like your idea. And I am one of these people. 
Since seeing BOTFA I always wanted to see the Witchking and a few others' armors in Edain; and Angmar is the perfect opportunity! I also had the idea as you that maybe the Witchking could have his Hobbit armor for Angmar. And also, maybe the Shadow Lord can get the design with the spear (left of the Witchking) - I really like it, as it resembles a Khand person or a Black Numenorian. This design, together with the Witchking's, are my favorite from BOTFA and I really find your idea fitting to get these armors in the mod.
Let's hope the Edain Team finds your idea useful 

Thanks for your support, I am happy that someone shares my view

What I do not get is the fact that the wraith form of of the witch-king has changed during the Hobbit and the LoTR so extremely.
But it is obviously not a piece of armor the invisible wraith is wearing to take form during the fictional Dol-Guldur scene because it is his naked wraith form.
So how can we take this armour to cover the invisible witch-king with ?
I does not make sense to me. Either we accept the BOFA lore and therefore the witch king must not have this armour in real but only as a wraith, or we ignore it an just take the armour...just because it is suppose to look cool (what I do not think personally).
But in the second case you can not argue that it is in accord with the movies.

Probably that is not his actual wraith form, as we only see empty armors, just like we see in ROTK, even if they are not solid in this case. The reasons they vary so much is something I cannot say, nor do I really give it this much importance, after all they are supernatural beings. Since when are things so radical here? I Remember the Team often reminding that the Mod unites both book and movie, and I admired the flexibility for concepts they showed up to now. I didn't say to take that armor to be 'in accord with the movies' or 'because it's supposed to look cool', what I said is just that it's probably a small exemple of movie-canon Angmar battle gear, and that it could be useful inspiration if the Team redesigns the Witch King. Whether people aesthetically like it or not is up to personal taste.

Even though I don't really like how the Witchking looks at the moment I don't want to see the design from "The Battle of the Five Armies" in the Edain-Mod. I am sure the Edain team can find a better solution for the Witchking's model.
And I have no idea why one would change the designs of the two Nazgûl, that look absolutly brilliant. The BOTFA-designs can't compare to them.

Agai, most of this is up to personal taste.
One reason could just be to try and have a variation in Nazgul design, not to see which is better or can't be compared with others.

I will be more specific with what I said before:

Inspiration for the WK comes from the fact that The current Angmar soldiers and WK movie design have small things in common, mind very few of them, but they're there.




Not that similar, true, but not always rulers look like their troops (think of Thranduil). So what I propose is just a small Inspiration to get the WK's design up and going with references to all versions. Here's a small sketch of what I mean



Well I had no ideas for his helmet, but this was just to show what I meant with my statements about the WK's look. Not too much similar to the original, possibly different enough to look separate, but still him. More blue should probably be there, as well as more decorations, as for the moment it looks like our old wraith in topless and a skirt, but this was a quick sketch. Also more blue should be considered, possibly runes on the cape (as the Team is implementing this interesting concept), but I used the WK's current Edain colors.

NOTE: I took the liberty to post The Team's images and this sketch of mine just to show what I actually mean with the idea, if this is inappropried or not permitted in any case please tell me and accept my apologies, as it is not to my knowledge.

[Melkor Bauglir]

I think there is a conceptual problem with the Angmar Witchking's appearance: Angmar heroes tend to look more like more classic fantasy video games, just look at the new Mornamarth model or Zaphragor. While this is certainly nothing bad in general as those models look pretty nice and due to these heroes being invented by the ET I am perfectly fine with such eye-catching designs: In a certain way the fact that Zaphragor is "the Arthas guy" gives him a more distinct personality. Also all of those heroe's looks are still contained and not too over the top.
However this does create the problem, that you don't wan't the freaking Witchking and the leader of Angmar to be a small unrecognizeable person next to his servants. This results all in all in the need to give him also a very heavy armored, "thorny" kind of appearance. Apart from that he has to be different from the Mordor Witchking and Angmar's iron and ice theme is pretty heavy.
Therefore and only because of all these things, I don't think the Angmar Witchking needs a model change. You are totally right about him, these spikes are probably too big, but I don't want him to become "smaller" compared to his minions.

For the rest: First of all, I was in utter disgust about the Hobbit's ringwraiths, it has been a long time, since someday destroyed the appeal of a unique concept in such a brutal way! Those ringwraiths were literally one of the Hobbit's worst design choices and I doubt I will ever be able to completely detach myself from this godawfull scene, in order to talk about your proposal as neutral as possible. But I will try!
This brings me to the point where I don't really think you can just combine any design ideas: Speaking about the dwarves the team used elements of their work (based mainly on the book) and the Hobbit movies and they were able to do so, because both ideas were totally compatible. E.g. the Hobbit dwarves were just drowning in armor and you never saw anyone's face thus looking pretty fake and showing all of those were adding in a computer. But, they were still dwarves, so after taking away some of the armor and mixing it with already known elements, they look marvelous, because the Hobbit indeed has a lot of good and creative designers who know what they are doing. Certain elements of the movies look really fine and Edain captured exactly those.

Now for the Nazgûl, I don't know how to combine anything about both interpretations because they contradict each other on a very fundamental level: Originally (book-version) the Nazgûl were even more kept in secret, they were just concealed by mysteries as you don't know where they come from, they are never really shown, wear those cloaks and are just built up as great villains. This constant "I don't know what they are or think, apart from that they wish me dead (and even this not by themselves!)" is freaking creepy. To add to this concept, they never really fight in the movies books (apart from the Witchking), but are kept in safe distance while poisoning everything with their Black Breath (?) and bring disorder, fear and chaos. This containment is what makes them memorable -heck, up to today everyone can bring monsters to life in cinema, make them jump arround and do stuff! But what truely stays as a memory? Nothing, because just watch... I don't know, a Marvel movie if you wan't villains in fancy outfits to duke it out with the heroes.
The ringwraiths and their constant cold emptyness, cut of from any free will and just being full of hate, fear and horror, are in my opinion some of the most memorable villains in history and certainly one of Tolkien's strongest ideas. (To be fair: Most of his villains are really boring -it's just said, that they are evil and that's it! )
Therefore I don't find any pleasure in the idea of combining the creative spark of those to approaches towards the ringwraiths.

Edit: In the LotR movies this concepts was broken just a little bit, because from a cinematic point of view, it is almost impossible to make them scary without them being never seen or seen fighting. (This is of course totally possible in classic horror movies, but LotR is of course none of this. ) However they were still kept in their black clothes, even the Witchking does not wear that much armor if you take away the head and shoulder parts. Therefore I can still totally see the ringwraiths, but in a "cinematic" version, where they naturally have to be different.

What I actually might agree on, is to take some of their design elements and use them, because to be fair a small amount of those do look fairly nice. (Something I haven't realised untill now, because the scene was just terrible and the Nazgûl transparent. ) For example, I just like a lot of the armor elements of the guy left from the Witchking apart from his helmet. This actually looks really good and I think that the Shadow Lord (whose theme is his robe and not big armor) would be off good with this change! Especially the cape is a nice addition, because it veils him behind even more cloth and robes.
For the Dark Marshall, I personally don't like his current helmet, as it seems to heavy for a Nazgûl, so I would enjoy perhaps one of those lighter helmets, eventhough tuned down. E.g. again the helmet of the Nazgûl to the Witchking's left looks decent if some of the ornaments are removed.

To bring closure to this post: I guess my points are made rather clear. I like some of your ideas which is a wonder because as you may have realised I detested the Hobbit's Nazgûl design. However talking about your original point, I am fairly uncertain about changing the Angmar Witchking.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: I have to say, Spacetyrant93, that this is one of the most thought out design propositions I have read in a long time. Often they are just: "Well, I liked this. How about adding it to the game?". Compared to that, your idea was very well written and explained. My compliments for that.

[Spacetyrant93]

About Angmar, you nailed it Melkor, and that honestly is the main problem I have with Angmar's heroes: I was never fond of can-armors, hence why I usually don't dig to deep into Warcraft or Warhammer whose characters are lost in pieces of rmor (shoulderpieces mainly, have you sen those things?!)
Yet, indeed having the WK look 'less' than his minions would look wrong and out of place, after all his was the iron hand that created Angmar, yet to me the answer would simply be to downplay said heroes just a small bit. The main can-armor guy would be Zophrargor, but since all Angmar is going through a redesign, I do hope they change him for the best. A butcherer needs appropriate battle gear, but I oppose to TOO much battle gear. Mornamath for exemple is fine at the moment, so no problem for me. Also, when compared to other factions, can-armor does really look out of place. That's just my view, but still.

I truly thank you for your effort, and I understand it's not easy for you I'll be honest, I too was baffled and confused by the scene, and it didn't completely feel right, but in the end I just enjoyed it. It was good to have the wraiths back, even if I admit they were barely recognizable, yet I always enjoy new variations in concepts.
Well if there is a race that is justified drowning in armor that would be the Dwarves XD And that's what I'm saying: true, most of the movies's designs and choices were a bit over the top, yet still valuable and even better if used and interpreted in different way.

As for the Nazgul, I did propose something like this to the Team sometime back, and they answered that the main feature of the Nazgul was that they are cursed creatures, robbed of their identity and true feelings, turned into pure shadows, as such them being not completely recognizable was the right answer. While I do agree, since the WK is pretty defined for reasons we know, and Khamul still retains his name ans maybe status (he does seem to still command Easterlings), it might be fun to go on with it for the others. Also because technically we already do with the Shadow Lord and the Dark Marshall, so why not? what I say is simply to alter their battle form, not the base form or the ringhunter form, so everyone can choose their favored form for the Nazgul, just like it is now. And I agree on the villainry part

You preceeded me on that answer XD Sure, and that is exactly what I liked: we could identify him, but his cape was a reminder of his status as a wraith. And this is also true for Khamul, whom has his shoulder pads and helmet, but that's it.

On the possible Shadow Lord, I agree, the body armor looks more like cloth (which is totally plausible), and it's both exotic and skeletal. I actually don't dislike the helm, which could be interpreted as a sort of mask, but I suppose a hood as well would do, and having all those layers of cloth and the cloak would really give off the Shadow Lord feeling.
About the Dark Marshall, I share your view, and I'd also say that if there is any Nazgul that needs good battle gear, that'd be him, so I'd say to take elements from what we have.

Your points are clear and sound To each his own view of things, but I really enjoyed your reasoning. About that I'd say to wait for the next Angmar releases, so that we may have a better idea of the faction, as at the moment it's still quite nebulous.

Thank you, really I just feel that a suggestion need good and justificate reasons behind, even if it's 'it's just cool' XD

[WarOfTheRingVeteran]

Okay, I'll offer my own opinion starting with Mordor: I honestly would like to see them having the armour from the BOTFA, but only when unveiled, like Khamûl. But I definitely wouldn't like to see Mordor Witch-king changed in any way.

Concerning Angmar WK, I do agree that the certain parts on the current model should be decreased, but personally I don't excessively like him in The Hobbit, but I'm gonna leave that up to Edain; I'm actually indifferent about it I also never liked him having a mace, he was supposed to be a sorcerer, killing enemies mainly with his magic, while using more agile weapon (e.i. sword) for close combat (or physical one), since he is substantially a mass-slayer. As for an Angmar hero, in case someone didn't get it.

[ringbearer]

I don't find WK armor too "extravagant" , but what i really miss and don't understand is edains decision to give him his mace from LOTR movies and War of the ring era.

In original ROTWK he has this "thing" which to some visual degree represents "Iron" Crown and his attack which deals damage to everyone his cruelty and desire to rule but any means.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_medium/9/95816/1632637-lotr_bfme2_rise_of_the_witch_king_wallpaper_01.jpg

 

[Odysseus]

Yes, his sceptre. It does indeed symbolise the Iron Crown, but I don't really see a problem myself. Either that, or the mace. No problem on my end.

[ringbearer]

To further explain myself. His armour look is good and a solid differentiation from mordor one, but his blade&mace attack and 3 abilities same as mordor version is too much imo. Angmar WK is absolute ruler of the faction, unlike in mordor, and i personally don't feel that he is that + hundred of years younger version with a quite different agenda.

But hey , it's just my own preference plus i doubt that edain deasn't have some surprise for us concerning WK and Angmar as well.