[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Lothlórien and Mirkwood

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DrHouse93:
Greetings, companions of the Edain^^
I'd like to partially support the idea proposed by Arteaga on ModDB some days ago. He proposed to have Mirkwood to act for Lorien like Arnor does for Gondor. However, I don't think this is a good implementation, because while Arnor and Gondor are very similar, Lorien and Mirkwood complement each other. Mirkwood has that military power that Lorien is missing, while this one have access to powerful magic and support abilities. So, my idea is, rather than replacing one of them in certain maps, to just swap the order in which they can be accessed

As an example, when playing with Lothlorien on maps like Dol Guldur, the East Bight or even Mirkwood itself, I think it's inappropriate that we can access Mirkwood units and heroes only later. So, in certain maps, Mirkwood may be the starting faction, while Lorien may be limited to the outposts, adding a button to the Lorien Fortress to make it able to recruit Lorien heroes, while on the other hand keeping its choices as they are

This way, you will still be able to control both the realms and accessing both of their features, but in a different order (which also leads to a different gameplay style and, to a certain extent, to an unique system). The starting options for Mirkwood would be those:
- The Camp/Castle is the same as Lorien. However, rather than the Galadhrim Quarters, you may replace them with the Palace Guards Quarters, which has the same effects of the former, but allows the recruitment of Palace Guards in the citadel
- As for the standard units, having to start with the current armored Mirkwood units would be OP. So, I think they could build, from the citadel, the old Mirkwood swordsmen used in the 3.81, the Mirkwood Guards summoned by Tauriel and just a new spearmen batallion.
- Nothing changes on the Mirkwood Outpost. This way, if the player wants access to elite armored units, he still has to conquer an outpost
- The Lorien Fortress would be the same, except for a new button for the recruitment of Lorien heroes
- The scout hero of Mirkwood could be Tauriel, who can use this mechanic:
    - She has low values and the default three skills of the summoned version at first. However, she costs the same amount of resources as Rumil and Orophin
    - In a second moment, she can be upgraded, either through Gifts of Galadriel or another upgrade, to raise her values and refresh her skillset to a full arsenal, while also increasing her price
- Finally, the spellbook would be pretty the same, except of course for the Summon Mirkwood Guards. This can be replaced by Summon Galadhrim, which is similar to the Rohan version, but it differs since they have a the Galadhrim armor (rather than the blue cloak) and maybe, to balance them, they're just two batallions, and, if you can't find a good role for them, maybe Rumil and Orophin can spawn together with them, already armored with Galadriel's gifts

To me, this is a mix of both the Arnor/Gondor mechaninc and the Dwarven Realms
So, what do you think about it?^^

NetoD20:
I was going to make a post about this, I'm glad someone already did start it, and is supporting the idea. But I have a different concept for it, which I would like to present here:

-DISCLAIMER- This whole proposal and discussion began from a couple of suggestions on ModDB's commenting section and with an overexcited nerd (me). The suggestions were to either make Mirkwood a realm option at the begining of the game, like the dwarven realms, or to make it a map faction like @DrHouse93 proposed above. Both suggestions implicate MASSIVE changes in the current Lothlórien faction, mainly require the creation of a Mirkwood castle and camp and quite a bit of balance tweaking. I chose to support the first suggestion in which the player would choose if he wants to begin with a Lothlórien (agressive) or Mirkwood (defensive) base. I really don't like the idea of map factions but I totally understand the Team's predicament with Arnor and the spellbook thing, and understand that there is no other way for it to be anything other than a map faction, I am not speaking against that resolution. I know my post and suggestions are HUGE and complex, but either one of these proposals are huge and complex and do require a through examination if they were to be seriously proposed. So I tried to cover every angle of everything that would change and how it could change if this proposal would be implemented. I think these ideas deserve to be discussed with the community and the Team, given that Mirkwood is as interesting and as great an elven realm as Lothlórien and (I believe) with as many fans, so it deserves to be discussed if it is possible occupy the same grand space in the faction as Lothlórien, instead of appearing ""only"" as an outpost (may this outpost be as awesome and as big as it is right now or not).

My MAIN POINT in this disclaimer is, as I mentioned before, that I know these ideas and suggestions are huge and complex and that they would demand an equally huge amount of work from the Team. And that knowing this I'm certainly not trying to demand anything from the Team upon discussing it or insisting on it. Corellon knows how they are blessed for already giving us this amazing mod- not mod, this amazing GAME, to us entirely for free, spending hours upon hours that probably amount for months when put together. So I, or anyone else not in the Team in this community, don't have the right to demand anything from them beyond of what they already present us with. And certainly not anything this huge that I'm proposing. Upon discussing and proposing this suggestions and ideas I'm just trying to geek out and improve the mod even further. I don't know whether I'm going right about it, or if it will result in anything, that's for you guys and, mainly, the Team to decide. If it actually really doesn't result in anything and technically I was wasting my time, well then, at least it was fun writing all my ideas down, because I almost never get to do that. But my expectation is that the community will like at least some of my ideas, and that maybe one day the Team may use some of them (even though this is all meant to work together as a system). -END-OF-DISCLAIMER-

Instead of having access to Mirkwood or to Lothlórien at early game as determined by map as @DrHouse93 suggested, the player would choose which faction he wants to begin playing with, and the corresponding castle or camp would then be built.
[insert initial castle ruins screenshot]

This would be a new and unique system for Edain because this new Lothlórien faction, henceforth dubbed the Elves or Elven faction, would cease to be an exclusively agressive faction to be what I will call a "situational" faction. In this concept the player would be able to choose if he wants to play an agressive faction (choosing Lothlórien castle at the begining of the game) or if he wants to play a defensive faction (choosing Mirkwood castle instead).

After choosing either of the two factions as his initial faction, the player would still have access to the other one through the outposts. The current Lothlórien castle and the two existing outposts would be the same as they are now, going largely unchanged. But the player would only have access to one of the outposts, the one that belongs to the faction he did not choose to start with.

If this were to be implemented, Mirkwood would need its own castle and camp rather than using the same castle and camp as Lothlórien with some different buildings. It needs to be unique, and Lothlórien and Mirkwood's architecture styles are too different to be integrated in the same castle or camp.

SPELLBOOK
I want to adress this first, in the concept here proposed the spellbook would remain roughly the same. And I must make clear that the Team already said that it's not possible to make the spellbook change depending on the realm you choose. But in this case I strongly belive that this would not be necessary, even if it were possible to do.

THE MIRKWOOD CASTLE
This concept is taken from the fairy brughs of english folklore from which Tolkien himself took inspiration to create the elvish cavern complexes of the city of Menegroth and the Elvenking's Halls in Mirkwood. The idea is to create a castle base for Mirkwood like the old 3.8.1 dwarven citadel:
[insert 3.8.1 dwarven citadel screenshot]

That citadel had some problems in 3.8.1 that I think can be overcomed if a similar concept were to be used for Mirkwood. The main problem with it was that the hewn-rock-like wall objects used to create the citadel were pre-existing Worldbuilder objects, they were not created by the Team to compose the citadel, they were repurposed to create a round stone fortress and looked weird because that was not what they were created for originally (I may be wrong, but I think they were mountain walls part of the EA Ered Luin map, not meant to form a round shape when put together). I'm not speaking out against repurposing objects to create new mod designs, I'm just saying that this Mirkwood castle concept should need to use new wall objects modeled to fit each other evenly in order to create a cavern atmosphere and not to look off.

That being said, I know the Team tried to replicate this cavern feeling in the first version of the Mirkwood outpost, with its stone pillars, and were later forced to change it into a forest canopy, because it didn't look right. Well, creating a Mirkwood castle instead of an outpost gives the advantage of actually creating walls to compose the cavern.

As a defensive faction befitting Thranduil's reluctance to put his people in harm's way, Mirkwood castle, as I am envisioning it, would be a killbox. The base's walls would be modeled to look like natural stone in a round format surrounded by shrubs, and trees and all kinds of greens. It would be completely sealed, without garrisonable walls (at first, read below), and having only a front gate.

Mind that this is the concept for a castle base, not a camp. It may be weird and different at first for a defensive faction's castle in Edain not to have garrisonable walls, but I will talk more about that below when I get to the Wall Extensions section.

Mirkwood Castle Buildings
All the buildings inside the Mirkwood castle are connected to its central citadel by stone bridges harboring Mirkwood archers, there are five build plots inside the castle.

-The Throne Room: Mirkwood Castle's central building, its citadel, would be Thranduil's Throne Room and would look a bit like the current central building in Mirkwood's outpost. It would be a central stone dais befringed by four stone pillars, each at one corner, with Thranduil's throne at its center. Two small entrances at the sides of the stone dais would be the places where Mirkwood units recruited in the castle would be spawned from. So this concept establishes that Mirkwood castle will use the same recruitment system currently used in the Lothlórien faction, where only one unit can be made at a time. Moreover the Throne Room can be used to sit Thranduil into his throne, where he would have different army support abilities than he has while not in the throne (his out-of-the-throne skills would be the same as they are now), see the Heroes section below to know more about enthroned Thrandy, and other heroes that can be recruited in this building.

-Vault of the King: This building would look much like the current Vault of the King in Mirkwood's outpost. It gives access to the castle's upgrades, and it allows the training of Palace Guards at the citadel. Thranduil's Mobilisation Order is moved to enthroned Thranduil. Captain of the Guards posts two palace guards at the Throne Room (instead of around the vault itself like in the outpost) that climb down the stairs to attack nearby invaders. Protect the Borders adds +1 more archer to each of the stone bridges connecting all the buildings to the citadel, this is in addition to the maximun of two archers in each bridge when its building reaches level 3, in this way Mirkwood gets more archers than Lothlórien given its killbox concept. Wine from Dorwinion works as normal, I'm not gonna mention the old dorwinion units because I don't know when the Team intends on adding them or how.

-Troopchambers: The Troopchambers allow the training of all the regular Mirkwood units at the citadel. The player also must choose if he wants to buy recruit speed upgrades or command point upgrades at the recently built Troopchamber, once the choice is made it can't be changed, another Troopchamber must be built to buy the type of upgrade that wasn't chosen.

-Mirkwood Forges: Access to all the current Lothlórien upgrades.

-Feast Hall: The Feast Hall is a new two-story building, as all the other buildings of Mirkwood, it is formed by stone pillars connected through bridges, the building consists of the wine cellars at its base and a spiral stair leads from the cellars to a upper floor where there is an elven feast (reference to the Feast of Starlight), a strip of light from a crack in the cavern ceilling illuminates the feast (like the old 3.8.1 Lightbringer building). This building heals nearby allies and from a roleplaying perspective it would be where the Elvenking receives his honored guests. People would point out that one of the problems of this Mirkwood castle idea is that Mirkwood has too few heroes to be a faction, so my idea is that the Mirkwood faction would be able to research an upgrade in this building where they can recruit allied heroes from Lothlórien. It would further integrate the two realms and solve the lack of heroes problem.

Wall Extensions
As I wrote previously, Mirkwood's castle doesn't have garrisonable walls as other defensive factions do, but it can defend itself externally through its wall extensions upgrades. In this concept there are five wall extension plots around the castle's cavernous walls, each is positioned in the same direction the internal build plots are, as if five imaginary lines extended outward from Thranduil's Throne crossing the build plots inside the castle and then reaching the wall extension plots outside. There are two extension options, the Overlook and the Secret Path:

-Secret Path: This extension creates a small crack in the fortress' natural rock walls that allows allied units to pass through.

-Overlook:The Overlook is how the brugh (Mirkwood castle) defends itself, it's supposed to look like a cliff that sticks out of hole in the cavern wall, it should have an appearance resembling this:
In the same way that the internal buildings of Mirkwood castle are connected through stone bridges to the citadel, so is all the overlooks built connected to the internal buildings of Mirkwood that lie in the same direction or imaginary line as the overlook. You can only build an overlook in a wall extension build plot if you already have an internal Mirkwood structure built in the correponding internal build plot. From the moment you build an overlook an empty garrisonable slot appears in the corresponding internal structure. When you garrison it with a batallion of units those units enter the building and then walk out in the stone bridge that connects the building to the overlook, this uses an elevator system not unlike the one in Rohan, Gondor, and the Dwarves' castles. Units garrisoned in an overlook are subject to enemy fire as normal.
After building an overlook you can further upgrade it to have an ent at its tip hurling rocks, like the old Ent fortress upgrade for the elves in the original BfME II.

MIRKWOOD CAMP
As of now in my idea Mirkwood camp has four build plots and no natural walls or extension build plots to speak of.

SETTLEMENTS
I think both the Ent Moot and the Beorninger Hut settlements are fitting to both Lothlórien and Mirkwood, but the Mallorn Tree is too specific and special to Lothlórien and I think Mirkwood deserves another resource settlement in place of the current Mallorn tree, given that Mirkwood is a special forest realm in its own right with different thematics to explore for its magical trees.

Border Guard Treehouse: This settlement is a green-leafed tree with a small elvish tree house attached to it, the bark of the model of this tree should have either a darker or more multicoloured appearance than the white Mallorn Tree to give the impression of a totally different forest, and also a more twisted trunk. I mentioned the multicoloured option because in the movies the trees in the set were wildly full of psychedelic colours to give exactly this feel to the actors, and were later darkened in post-production. So I don't know which you guys prefer, dark or coloured. This settlement would function more or less like a Mallorn Tree, but with different "melian" effects (doesn't need to be called melian):

*Forest of Illusions: A multicoloured fog (dark green, dark blue, purple, and pink) covers the area around the Border Guard Treehouse that slows enemy units' speed, doesn't affect monsters (including spiders).

*Eyes of the Elvenking: The Elvenking knows all the secret passages of Mirkwood and his eyes and presence are everywhere, augments the vision range of the tree and a elk appears grazing around it (Desolation of Smaug EE easter egg, the elk is a symbol of the Elvenking's presence in the woods).

*More ideas?

HEROES
These are the heroes recruitable from Mirkwood castle/camp:

-Legolas: remains unchanged from his outpost version.

-Tauriel: becomes a permanent hero recruitable from Mirkwood castle, but is still non-recruitable from the outpost if the player chooses Lothlórien as his initial faction. In this concept she will no longer be present at the Spellbook, and instead be replaced by a third battalion Guards of Mirkwood in that spell (clarifying: this is a global change, and I'm not proposing for the spell to change depending on what the player chooses, because I know that's not possible).

-Thranduil: Thranduil remains unchanged... actually, sort of, he is indeed the same version as the one from the outpost, but in this concept he can sit at his throne in the same way Saruman can be put atop the Isengard's citadel after the Wizard's Tower upgrade is researched. While sat he obviously can't move and his abilities to change to army support skills, see below the Enthroned Thranduil:

-Enthroned Thranduil: The skills of Enthroned Thranduil conceptually follow the Fisher King trope in which a ruler's moods and health are reflected in his realm's appearance and health. That same trope was part of how actor Lee Pace thought of and concieved his character in the movies, and I think it's a very fitting concept for both Thranduil and a defensive faction like Mirkwood. Here's some ideas for Enthroned Thranduil's skills:

*Level 1: Passive ability. While sat on his throne Thranduil takes a small fraction of damage everytime one of Mirkwood's buildings outside the castle (the settlements) take damage. But Thranduil also gains a small amount of experience everytime enemy units are killed in close viscinity to one of Mirkwood's settlements. This experience and damage are only awarded and taken respectively while Thranduil is sat on his throne. (Variant feature to make this more balanced = the experience gained through this skill only advances Enthroned Thranduil's abilities, the army support abilities being presented here, not his regular combat hero abilities.)

*Level 3: Thranduil's Mobilization Order. Unchanged from its outpost upgrade version.

*Level 5: Silvan Revelry. Thranduil orders a great feast for his people, The Feast Hall stops producing resources and all units in the viscinity of any of Mirkwood's buildings are healed much faster for a time, but are also slowed. Elven heroes are also healed, but not slowed (that's because all elven heroes except Tauriel are either Sindar or Noldor, and thus can't get drunk as the lowly silvan elves lol).

*Level 7: Wrath of the Elvenking. All units in the viscinity of a Mirkwood building get +25% attack and damage.

*Level 10: Any ideas?

-Avari Scouts: Instead of a scout hero Mirkwood has access to the Avari scout units, these are the same Avari units from 3.8.1, but they are limited to three battalions of three soldiers each. I think they would make great scouts and it's a good opportunity to bring the Avari back, their design fits well with both the Mirkwood Border Guards from the spellbook and the Elkriders.

-Other Heroes: One of the few minuses of this whole turning-Mirkwood-into-a-realm concept is its few heroes. In this concept Mirkwood would only have three heroes of its own + the Avari scouts, one fewer than Iron Hills, the faction/realm with fewer heroes. My suggestion to this problem has already been mentioned in the Feast Hall building entry above, creating an upgrade that makes it possible to recruit Lothlórien hero allies through that building. The other solution would be adding at least one more noncanon hero to the mix, perhaps Elros, the horn guy:

UNITS
The other minus of implementing this concept is how the units are currently built to work in the Lothlórien faction. As of now, the Lothlórien units and the Mirkwood units are meant to complement each other, in which you begin with the fast and weaker Lothlórien units to later get the access to the more tough Mirkwood units at the Outpost. If I remember well that's the same mechanic to be implemented in the future with the Misty Mountains faction, where you would begin with the weaker goblins of Moria to later get access to the more tough Gundabad orcs or the more specialized Goblin Town units at the outpost. I totally understand that it's a little difficult to  disturb that balance, but I think some balance tweaking should help the Team get this right so that players can begin with Mirkwood units if they choose the Woodland Realm castle and make that Lothlórien units are still useful at late game. It is not something new or impossible balance-wise in Edain for a faction to begin with tougher units and later get access to lighter ones, such is the dynamic of the current Ered Luin and Erebor realms where they begin with the more resistant dwarven units and later get access to the lighter Lake Town/Dale units.

Contrary to @DrHouse93 I don't think that begining with the current Mirkwood units would be necessarily OP, as I said it just needs a little balance tweaking. My suggestion to this matter is to keep the same Mirkwood outpost units in the castle if the player chooses Mirkwood as his initial faction, but nerf them a bit compared to the ones that can be recruited in the outpost (remember what I said at the begining of the post that, in this concept, if you choose a faction, you later don't have access to that same faction's outpost, only to the outpost of the faction you didn't choose initially). So the idea is that Mirkwood Swordsmen recruited in the castle would be a little less resistant than the ones you could recruit from the outpost (had you chosen Lothlórien as your initial faction) and they do not have their tower shields. Instead, the Tower Shield could be a special upgrade. A new unit could be created, the Mirkwood Spearmen, weaker than the elite Palace Guards and that could also benefit from the Tower Shield upgrade. Maybe the Mirkwood Archer (and that pains me a lot to propose, but I think is necessary given balance reasons) isn't so good as the Lothlórien archer, so getting the Lothlórien outpost at late game should be really useful for a player who chooses to begin as Mirkwood. Maybe Mirkwood should be the tougher faction and Lothlórien should specialize not only in speed, but also in greater damage than Mirkwood.

-Dorwinion Units: If the Team means to implement them, these could be Mirkwood's support units in the same way the Chanteuse is Lothlórien's.

P.S. I will not revise this huge text right now, I've spent my day elaborating it from ideas that I've been cooking up in my head and dreams the past two weeks (I think). I'll later edit both for revision's sake and for adding new concepts and ideas that come up later as the discussion in the thread evolves and becomes a 15 page monster. I really love this community and the Edain Team, happy holidays! (Great Corellon, I still have to write the whole Disclaimer section at the begining of the text.)

P.S.2 The [insert screenshot] things are here because currently I cannot take screenshots of the game, and couldn't find the described images on the web. It will be edited later.

P.S.3 Do I win "Biggest Proposal/Post of the Forums" or "Biggest Useless Human Being" LOL

P.S.4 Ignore the names I gave to buildings, abilities and such, while writing they were thought of to be completely provisory. I bet anyone here can come up with better names for these things than me.

Celebrimbor:
NetoD20

Wow i like your ideas!
Its an awesome idea  8-)
Im in :D

I just dont like this resource settlement that you choose...
I think the Mirkwood gets his Money from trading resources

Thats why i think we need a Mirkwood-Outpost for trading things
(A little Outpost for resources) like a little marketplace
you know what i mean?

Mein englisch ist nicht so gut also ich meine statt dem Mallorn-Baum könnte man ja auch ein kleines Handelshaus einrichten nur halt für den Düsterwald
Falls diese Idee überhaupt übernommen wird.
Ich finde aber das es ja auch den Zwergen zusteht zwischen 3 Völkern zu wählen
deswegen könnte man ja auch den Elben dieses Recht zusprechen :-)

Adrigabbro:
I will try to give my honest opinion on such a massive idea.
As a kind of disclaimer for myself, I'll just say that I'm currently happpy with the Lorien faction and the Mirkwood appearance in Edain, but I understand why some people want to see more of Thranduil's realm. I will only talk about Neto's ideas because, in my opinion, if and only if the team is willing to do such an important overhaul of Mirkwood (just like they did for the Dwarves after all :D), it would be a pity to work that much for a couple of maps. However I'm not saying DrHouse's ideas are bad. :)

That being said, let's get started:


* The Spellbook I agree with you: the current spellbook has been thought to fit both Lorien and Mirkwood, no important change needed.

* Mirkwood Castle The idea is good but personally, I hated 3.8.1 dwarven castle: it felt out of place, not very handy and ugly. Now, I don't understand what you said about the worldbuilder objects, but I think there is another way to recreate that cavernous and closed from the outside look.
To make it clear: Mirkwood castle should be a mix between Mirkwood current outpost (cavernous, closed from the oustide) and Lorien castle (all buildings connected to the central building) and I would completely trust our favorite team to make the best of it.
Just a final note: I really like the idea of "non garrisonable walls" and "walls extensions" ; especially the walls extensions: everything you said about the Overlook is so cool! (execpt the Ent throwing rocks: there is no Ent in Mirkwood)

* Mirkwood castle buildings The Feast hall is a nice idea for a fourth option, but you shouldn't be able to recruit Lorien heroes from there. Leave them in the corresponding outpost. Instead, give the Feast hall the command points option and give the Troopchambers the training speed (something like that is very important because from a competitive point of view, you need the command points and with your idea you would have no choice but building two Troopchambers: one for training speed and one for command points).

* Mirkwood Camp I'm having a hard time picturing Mirkwood camp given that I already barely see what the Castle would look like, so I'll just say I leave that one to you guys.

* Settlements The Entmoot and the Beorninger Hut should definitely stay and as you rightfully stated, some kind of new economic building should replace the Mallorn. I like your idea of another Tree because after all, Mirkwood is an impregnable forest just like Lothlorien.

* Heroes Here is unfortunately one of the point I disagree the most with you. I like Isengard system with Saruman and the Citadel but I like it unique and I don't think anyone else in the game, Thranduil included, should have access to this very interesting mechanics.
Legolas and Thranduil unchanged and Tauriel "taking" the role of Haldir is how I see things. On the settlements, you have access to Grimbeorn, Quickbeam and Treebeard. On the outpost, you have access to Galadriel and Celeborn. As for the scout hero, some kind of similar system to Iron Hills' ram riders, with some ideas I don't currently have, could be the place for Elkriders in Edain (I gotta admit I never use Elkriders in 4.2.1, I don't like the way they are implemented at the moment).
All in all, Mirkwood would offer just as many heroes as Lorien. If you start with Lorien, you can't play with Tauriel but if you start with Mirkwood, you can't play with Haldir and his brothers.

* Units That's the second point I disagree. I think a certain unit should have the same exact damage and armor no matter if you start with Mirkwood or Lorien. As you rightfully pointed out, Blue Mountains/Erebor begin with heavy units and have access later to cheaper but faster units in Laketown/Dale. Of course some units would have to be tweaked (I'm thinking about Palace guards who would have to make up a bit for CG guardians). Once again, I would completely trust the team to release a balanced faction.
Also, just like you, I won't mention Dorwinion units because I don't know if the team has plans for them.

In the end, I'm just gonna say that this proposal is very interesting and well-thought, but it would require a massive amount of time to do it right.


EDIT: I still think that whether or not you start with Mirkwood or Lorien, you should still be able to build the corresponding outpost. (what if you want to use only Lorien units? or only Mirkwood units?) Even though they are meant to complement each other, you might want to go full Lorien/Mirkwood depending on the game.
More generally, what if you hold several outposts?

EDIT2: I didn't see your post, @Celebrimbor. You are right that trading was an important aspect of Mirkwood in the Desolation of Smaug, but I would rather see it included as a building in the Castle/Camp.

FG15:
This is not possible.
There can be only one base built at castles/camps for each factions. Therefore, there can't be completly different ones.

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