[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Lothlórien and Mirkwood

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DrHouse93:
Ok, after having read both the answers, here's my opinion about Neto's idea:


* Mirkwood castle/campI mainly agree with Adrigabbro on this point. I also hated the Dwarves' mountain in 3.81, and I hope not to see it again, both because I don't like it and also for one practical reason: the Halls of Thranduil were built INSIDE the Mirkwood Hills with the help of the Dwarves. So, I don't think the Elves would be so capable of replicating the Dwarves' work, as well as being nosense that random hills would spawn out of nowhere (similarly to what the team said to people who wanted rivers to be boundaries of the Elven castle/camp)
So, I think that the current design is fitting, and maybe just the building options can be changed

* BuildingsI like the way you implemented Mirkwood's outpost buildings inside the main camp. However, I do believe that Troopchambers should grant the Commandpoints bonus (therefore replacing the Border Guards Quarters), while the Feast Halls should give the Recruitment Speed bonus (therefore replacing the Galadhrim Quarters)
The Vault of the King is the place where there would be the first main difference from Lothlorien. In the castle version of the Vault of the King, you can research not only its standard upgrades, but also the units upgrades. Also, building more Vaults of the King would reduce the cost of upgrades (I will explain later why this choice). The Wine cellars would then remain as they are: producing resources, lowering the price of heroes, healing nearby units and producing 50% more resources when the upgrade Wine from Dorwinion is researched.

* SettlementsThe options you proposed are pretty good^^ The only thing which I'm not conviced of, is the first upgrade proposed by Neto: "Forest of Illusions". I think the illusion and sickness feeling inside the forest was mainly because of Dol Guldur, and not Thranduil's job

* UnitsNow it comes a new idea. I stick with my opinion that having armored units from the beginning would be OP, for the Elves atleast. So, to my previous units options, I would like to add another concept: Heavy Armor. Why this?
- Because we saw that Mirkwood units can be both agile and fast as well as heavily armored with golden armors
- To mark another difference with Lothlorien
- To compensate the absence of the Lembas of Lorien units. So, Lorien units would have the Lembas, but not Heavy Armor, which would be an exclusive to Mirkwood units and would also change their design to the currently implemented models. So:

1. Mirkwood 3.81 swordsmen + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood 4.2 swordsmen
2. Mirkwood 3.81 archers + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood 4.2 archers
3. Mirkwood new spearmen + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood Palace Guards

* HeroesHere, I like both Neto and Adrigabbro's proposals, with some modifications:
- Legolas is unchanged. Everyone is happy with him
- Thranduil is fine as it is now. However, if most people likes this idea, I think it could be some kind of Citadel upgrade like Denethor until the Mobilisation Order upgrade is purchased. Of course, this would cause a reduction of Thranduil's price (until the uprade is purchased) and an increasing of the Mobilisation Order's price. (I don't have any ideas though for Thranduil as Denethor, sorry^^). Also, he could get his armor through that upgrade, rather than through Galadriel (I didn't never like the fact that Thranduil will wear his armor only if Galadriel gives it to him, sorry)
- About Tauriel, I still think she should be scout at first, then, when the Mobilisation order is purchased (another reason to make it an expensive key feature) she would take on Haldir's role as Adrigabbro suggested

* OutpostLast, but not least, the outpost options would be pretty the same as those proposed by Neto, but with just some changes to the Lorien Fortress:

From here, you can recruit Galadriel, Celeborn, the Galadhrim, the Caras Galadhon Guards, the Singers and the Silverthorne Arrows. Why this? Because these ones are all key features of Lorien. Replacing them with some Mirkwood counterpart would diminish Lorien's role, importance and uniqueness[/list]

NetoD20:

--- Zitat von: Celebrimbor am 25. Dez 2015, 10:34 ---I just dont like this resource settlement that you choose...
I think the Mirkwood gets his Money from trading resources

--- Ende Zitat ---

I understand, and I ask myself how couldn't I remember that Mirkwood uses a lot of commerce. Still, I personally don't have any concept for a trading outpost kind of building for Mirkwood resources, but if someone does, please do share :D Bear in mind that in my initial concept I wasn't proposing to change Lothlórien's resource gathering system or recruitment system, that's why there are only five build plots inside the Mirkwood castle in my proposal, and all the buildings should generate resources.
Also, I don't quite understand how you meant that the Mallorn Tree could be a small trading post.


--- Zitat von: Adrigabbro am 25. Dez 2015, 11:37 ---I will try to give my honest opinion on such a massive idea.
As a kind of disclaimer for myself, I'll just say that I'm currently happpy with the Lorien faction and the Mirkwood appearance in Edain, but I understand why some people want to see more of Thranduil's realm. I will only talk about Neto's ideas because, in my opinion, if and only if the team is willing to do such an important overhaul of Mirkwood (just like they did for the Dwarves after all :D), it would be a pity to work that much for a couple of maps. However I'm not saying DrHouse's ideas are bad. :)

That being said, let's get started:


* The Spellbook I agree with you: the current spellbook has been thought to fit both Lorien and Mirkwood, no important change needed.

* Mirkwood Castle The idea is good but personally, I hated 3.8.1 dwarven castle: it felt out of place, not very handy and ugly. Now, I don't understand what you said about the worldbuilder objects, but I think there is another way to recreate that cavernous and closed from the outside look.
To make it clear: Mirkwood castle should be a mix between Mirkwood current outpost (cavernous, closed from the oustide) and Lorien castle (all buildings connected to the central building) and I would completely trust our favorite team to make the best of it.
Just a final note: I really like the idea of "non garrisonable walls" and "walls extensions" ; especially the walls extensions: everything you said about the Overlook is so cool! (execpt the Ent throwing rocks: there is no Ent in Mirkwood)

* Mirkwood castle buildings The Feast hall is a nice idea for a fourth option, but you shouldn't be able to recruit Lorien heroes from there. Leave them in the corresponding outpost. Instead, give the Feast hall the command points option and give the Troopchambers the training speed (something like that is very important because from a competitive point of view, you need the command points and with your idea you would have no choice but building two Troopchambers: one for training speed and one for command points).

* Mirkwood Camp I'm having a hard time picturing Mirkwood camp given that I already barely see what the Castle would look like, so I'll just say I leave that one to you guys.

* Settlements The Entmoot and the Beorninger Hut should definitely stay and as you rightfully stated, some kind of new economic building should replace the Mallorn. I like your idea of another Tree because after all, Mirkwood is an impregnable forest just like Lothlorien.

* Heroes Here is unfortunately one of the point I disagree the most with you. I like Isengard system with Saruman and the Citadel but I like it unique and I don't think anyone else in the game, Thranduil included, should have access to this very interesting mechanics.
Legolas and Thranduil unchanged and Tauriel "taking" the role of Haldir is how I see things. On the settlements, you have access to Grimbeorn, Quickbeam and Treebeard. On the outpost, you have access to Galadriel and Celeborn. As for the scout hero, some kind of similar system to Iron Hills' ram riders, with some ideas I don't currently have, could be the place for Elkriders in Edain (I gotta admit I never use Elkriders in 4.2.1, I don't like the way they are implemented at the moment).
All in all, Mirkwood would offer just as many heroes as Lorien. If you start with Lorien, you can't play with Tauriel but if you start with Mirkwood, you can't play with Haldir and his brothers.

* Units That's the second point I disagree. I think a certain unit should have the same exact damage and armor no matter if you start with Mirkwood or Lorien. As you rightfully pointed out, Blue Mountains/Erebor begin with heavy units and have access later to cheaper but faster units in Laketown/Dale. Of course some units would have to be tweaked (I'm thinking about Palace guards who would have to make up a bit for CG guardians). Once again, I would completely trust the team to release a balanced faction.
Also, just like you, I won't mention Dorwinion units because I don't know if the team has plans for them.

In the end, I'm just gonna say that this proposal is very interesting and well-thought, but it would require a massive amount of time to do it right.


EDIT: I still think that whether or not you start with Mirkwood or Lorien, you should still be able to build the corresponding outpost. (what if you want to use only Lorien units? or only Mirkwood units?) Even though they are meant to complement each other, you might want to go full Lorien/Mirkwood depending on the game.
More generally, what if you hold several outposts?

EDIT2: I didn't see your post, @Celebrimbor. You are right that trading was an important aspect of Mirkwood in the Desolation of Smaug, but I would rather see it included as a building in the Castle/Camp.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Yes, I feel that same way about the old 3.8.1 dwarven castle, using it as an example was my only way of trying to explain how Mirkwood castle could be created. I couldn't imagine how Mirkwood castle could be with garrisonable walls, but it needed to be defensive, so I came up with that concept. I too completely trust the Team (if they ever want to implement any of this) to create Mirkwood castle the way they feel is right, that was just my cue at it. About the Ent thing, well I totally understand that you or anyone else don't like that, I it added because I felt that one archer battalion per overlook was small protection (remember that each overlook is kind of distant from each other as they extend into different directions from out of the castle like the points of a star, so most of the time only two archer batallions can get at one target where their overlooks are more close to each other), and as a defensive faction Mirkwood would need to defend itself properly agains siege. And the way I envisioned and explained overlooks above it isn't possible to put ents from the Ent Moot in it, so I tried to come up with something. Plus, I thought it was a good throwback to BfME II. Again, I trust the Team or the rest of the people in this thread to come with better ideas of how Mirkwood can defend from siege.

About the Feast Hall, yes, I prefer your idea much better than what I wrote above. I felt I needed to adress the hero problem, so put that idea up about the Lothlórien heroes reinforcement, someone had already mentioned it on ModDB, I think. I could totally play Mirkwood with only three heroes at the castle and the Avari or Elk Rider scout units as you proposed, but I'm not sure that's going to be a populat notion amongst the other fans or the Team.

About the units, yeah, most of the suggestions I did up there were for the sake of balance, and I'm not very confortable with them either. About the outposts, I don't know, but I think you're right, you should be able to be full Mirkwood or full Lórien if you want to, but as the outpost are supposed to have slightly different units than the castle (like shield swordsmen and non-shield swordsmen) I don't know how that would work, but it can be done.


--- Zitat von: FG15 am 25. Dez 2015, 12:16 ---This is not possible.
There can be only one base built at castles/camps for each factions. Therefore, there can't be completly different ones.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I don't wanna be the unpleasant guy who discusses with the Forum moderator, and I don't really understand much about modding. But... well I obviously didn't mean that there should be two castles built at the same time at the same spot, just clarifying that up, because the way you worded it gave the impression that that is what you thought I was proposing. Second, as the Dwarven realms work right now, the base is built and then you choose your desired realm. But I remember playing RJ mod back there and when you played the elves you started with that rock/castle ruins thing (the same one that exists in Edain from where you conquer new castles when there's too few players in a map with many player slots, the same one that appears at the begining of the game a few moments before your castle builds itself up) clicked on it and that chose Lothlórien or Rivendell, and the chosen base started to be build. I may be completely wrong, and I will search for a screenshot of the rock/ruins object I'm talking about, but I still think it's technically possible.


--- Zitat von: DrHouse93 am 25. Dez 2015, 12:33 ---Ok, after having read both the answers, here's my opinion about Neto's idea:


* Mirkwood castle/campI mainly agree with Adrigabbro on this point. I also hated the Dwarves' mountain in 3.81, and I hope not to see it again, both because I don't like it and also for one practical reason: the Halls of Thranduil were built INSIDE the Mirkwood Hills with the help of the Dwarves. So, I don't think the Elves would be so capable of replicating the Dwarves' work, as well as being nosense that random hills would spawn out of nowhere (similarly to what the team said to people who wanted rivers to be boundaries of the Elven castle/camp)
So, I think that the current design is fitting, and maybe just the building options can be changed

* BuildingsI like the way you implemented Mirkwood's outpost buildings inside the main camp. However, I do believe that Troopchambers should grant the Commandpoints bonus (therefore replacing the Border Guards Quarters), while the Feast Halls should give the Recruitment Speed bonus (therefore replacing the Galadhrim Quarters)
The Vault of the King is the place where there would be the first main difference from Lothlorien. In the castle version of the Vault of the King, you can research not only its standard upgrades, but also the units upgrades. Also, building more Vaults of the King would reduce the cost of upgrades (I will explain later why this choice). The Wine cellars would then remain as they are: producing resources, lowering the price of heroes, healing nearby units and producing 50% more resources when the upgrade Wine from Dorwinion is researched.

* SettlementsThe options you proposed are pretty good^^ The only thing which I'm not conviced of, is the first upgrade proposed by Neto: "Forest of Illusions". I think the illusion and sickness feeling inside the forest was mainly because of Dol Guldur, and not Thranduil's job

* UnitsNow it comes a new idea. I stick with my opinion that having armored units from the beginning would be OP, for the Elves atleast. So, to my previous units options, I would like to add another concept: Heavy Armor. Why this?
- Because we saw that Mirkwood units can be both agile and fast as well as heavily armored with golden armors
- To mark another difference with Lothlorien
- To compensate the absence of the Lembas of Lorien units. So, Lorien units would have the Lembas, but not Heavy Armor, which would be an exclusive to Mirkwood units and would also change their design to the currently implemented models. So:

1. Mirkwood 3.81 swordsmen + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood 4.2 swordsmen
2. Mirkwood 3.81 archers + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood 4.2 archers
3. Mirkwood new spearmen + Heavy Armor -> Mirkwood Palace Guards

* HeroesHere, I like both Neto and Adrigabbro's proposals, with some modifications:
- Legolas is unchanged. Everyone is happy with him
- Thranduil is fine as it is now. However, if most people likes this idea, I think it could be some kind of Citadel upgrade like Denethor until the Mobilisation Order upgrade is purchased. Of course, this would cause a reduction of Thranduil's price (until the uprade is purchased) and an increasing of the Mobilisation Order's price. (I don't have any ideas though for Thranduil as Denethor, sorry^^). Also, he could get his armor through that upgrade, rather than through Galadriel (I didn't never like the fact that Thranduil will wear his armor only if Galadriel gives it to him, sorry)
- About Tauriel, I still think she should be scout at first, then, when the Mobilisation order is purchased (another reason to make it an expensive key feature) she would take on Haldir's role as Adrigabbro suggested

* OutpostLast, but not least, the outpost options would be pretty the same as those proposed by Neto, but with just some changes to the Lorien Fortress:

From here, you can recruit Galadriel, Celeborn, the Galadhrim, the Caras Galadhon Guards, the Singers and the Silverthorne Arrows. Why this? Because these ones are all key features of Lorien. Replacing them with some Mirkwood counterpart would diminish Lorien's role, importance and uniqueness[/list]

--- Ende Zitat ---
[/spoiler]

I didn't know the dwarves helped build Mirkwood, wow o.o Did the dwarves helped with the creation of Menegroth too?
About the castle's natural wall feeling replicating hills, yeah I knew this would be challenged. Well, one idea could be to remove the feeling of it having natural stone walls, but maintaining the non-garrisonable walls and overlooks, just make it feel it is elven mansory. Personally I think that creating a replica of Minas Morgul when playing Mordor is even worse than spwaning natural features likes hills, and rivers, because I would atribute that to elven magic. But that's just me, and I totally understand why people and the Team don't like it.
I like your ideas on units, even though I don't exactly remember how Mirkwood units looked like in 3.8.1 and if that visual can be integrated with the golden armour. But I really like your heavy armor concept, it's similar in a way to my shielded swordsmen and non-shield swordsmen.
On the heroes, I too don't like the idea that Thranduil only wears his armor when Galadriel gives it to him.

Odysseus:
I'll share my thoughts as well.

I mostly agree with Addrigabbro and FG15. The amount of work necessary for this overhaul for a certain maps is quite large and it is questionable if it is necessary. The thing is, most of these posts regarding Mirkwood arise because, somehow, the thought that Mirkwood is subjected to Lothlorien, because they are on the outpost, is present. I believe this to be the case, but the team made it quite clear that Three Elvish realms in their diminishing 3rd Age is overkill. Men are the most important.

Also, I believe we can do same trick, by making a couple of simpler and easier adjustments instead. I am going to post a seperate thread about this; it will concern as many details as possible regarding the dynamics between the two.

That said, I enjoy reading the suggestions made if they are fleshed out so nicely. Well done and keep posting!

Odysseus:
Good day people of Edain mod,

Over the last couple of weeks, I have been noticing posts arguing that Mirkwood is just as significant as Lothlorien and that it should deserve a better place than the Outpost and that Mirkwood being ''subjected'' to Lothlorien is wrong. Personally, I both agree and disagree, but that is not exactly what I will suggest here.

I would like to suggest a couple of things that can make both intertwined factions more unique towards each other, while still maintaining their ties and iconic game mechanics. My idea is to create a kind of feeling where you are basically playing 2 factions at the same time, but it would be the best to have both operate independently, unless you are in a dire situation. Since I am not suggesting some kind of massive overhaul, what do I suggest then?

Well, this:
1. My first concern is the Mirkwood Outpost. I believe it could be made more into a castle, like Lothlorien. You pay a bit more, say 1500-2000, and then it becomes like a Fortress in itself, instantly garrisoned by Mirkwood Archers and also able to build your default troops. Then, like the Lothlorien Castle/Fortress, it becomes a unique 2nd castle, instead of a second outpost like the Lothlorien Outpost. Similar to Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul, but cheaper and with build plots. This way, you would choose for a cheaper extension via the Lothlorien outpost, or go for a heavier playstyle with the Mirkwood Fortress. I will also propose a few changes to the buildings that are currently implemented, which would then be  needed to accompany my proposals if we wish to create more uniqueness between the two, but more will follow down here.

2. Secondly, I believe that all leadership abilities should not overlap and be respective to their own realms only. For instance, Thranduil's first ability, King of Mirkwood, should only affect Mirkwood units. Similarly, Haldir's armour buff should only apply to the Galadhrim around him, or Lothlorien's basic units (that is debatable). This way, blobbing your troops together is less effective, and there is more authenticity and accuracy. What I see often is Mirkwood and Lothlorien's units being massed together, which would still be possible according to my suggested revisions, but it would be much less cost-effective. It would be thus more cost-effective to have both armies only join the battle together if you need more ''Firepower'', but otherwise, it would be more cost effective if both armies fought seperately during an actual game, on multiple fronts.

3. Thirdly, I am concerned about Palace Guards. Lore-wise and gameplay-wise, I do not think they are in a good spot right now. They feel and function too much like Tower Guards but without the Shield Wall Formation. As we all know, Tower Guards are a unique Gondorian unit and they should remain exclusive that way. I propose to replace them, with a cheaper alternative.
This: http://www.moddb.com/mods/rc-mod/images/heavy-mirkwood-spearman
Since you already have Valaquenta's/NewErr's Mirkwood Swordsmen and Archers models, I believe it would be logical to include this one too. At the cost of 300, they shun heavy armour, and are more affordable on the field. That is Mirkwood's job after all, to have a sustainable army on the field that can transition into late-game, akin to some kind of Elven Gondor. Mirkwood's units do less damage in general compared to Lothlorien and that is good, since they are more defensive and do much better in slugfests with their unique formations.

However, Mirkwood's glaring weakness is of course cavalry, and I think Palace Guards are too slow to protect your archers effectively. With the Mirkwood Spearmen, that comes with a unique formation, like the other Mirkwood units, you can get two of them out at the price of 1 single Palace Guard squad and they can form a line.

Furthermore, unlike the White Company and the Regiments of Tower Guards that would accompany royal members of Numenorean descent into the field, Palace Guards did no such thing. I believe Thranduil would have them protect the hall from the evils of the forest at all costs, unless given an explicit order to do otherwise. As such, Palace Guards would not be removed, but re-allocated to a Fortress ability in the upgrades.

This formation I would like to call the Deflector Formation, where you can block incoming arrows and cavalry in a narrow/small path, and protect units if you place them behind the Spearmen that are in formation while the Spearmen take 25-30% less ranged and trample damage. This is obviously reminiscent of the BOTFA movie, and it should make it easier for Mirkwood archers to be protected, if they stand behind them. Anything simpler is also welcome.

4. Elk Archers. While I am aware that they are non-cannon, I think that the idea is genuinely interesting, however it would be interesting to expand on them a bit. They become the Elite unit of Mirkwood, tied to a new structure, since Mirkwood loses it Palace Guards as purchasable troops. It also emphasises the archery nature of the Silvan Elves.

5. The changes to the buildings I mentioned, I would do as follows:
a. The Vault of the King is replaced by Elk Stables. Elk Archers become the Elite unit of Mirkwood instead. Instead of Elks coming out of the castle, it would be interesting if the Mirkwood castle thus had some kind of Elk pasture to hold them. It is not unheard of, having elk domesticised. They are ideal forest grazers. They also appear in the halls of Mirkwood of The Lego Game version of The Hobbit and Thranduil's throne seems to be made out of the horns of the extinct ''Irish Elk'' (Which is what his mount is based on). Surely, an Elk Stable does not sound so strange. Their cost could be increased if needed, to 700 or so, and they can stealth in trees to make them stand out a bit more compared to the Rohan Horse Archers. Each additional Elk Stable on a Mirkwood Fortress build plot, reduces the cost of them by 20%.
b. The Troop Chamber is replaced by the Mirkwood Forge/Armoury. Since the default troops have been moved to the default Fortress, reducing their costs would be unneeded, I think. Instead, the forges of Mirkwood now reduce the upgrade costs of Mirkwood's Silverthorns and Master Blades, since I doubt Lothlorien's forges would provide for Mirkwood. So, in that sense, Lothlorien's forges and camps reduce
c. The Wine Cellar remains the same.
d. The Upgrades that were in the Vault of the King, should be moved to the Mirkwood Fortress by default.
The Quick Recruitment ability remains the same.
I believe the Mirkwood Fortress should also get Silverthorn arrows as an upgrade, just like the Lorthlorien Fortress, if the cost increase is incorporated.
Now, The Palace Guard ability could be made into an active ability, where you research it, and then, like the Recruitment ability, you can temporarily summon several Palace Guard creeps around every building connected to the Mirkwood Fortress that will repel enemies. Some decent cooldown afterwards, of course.
Wine from Dorwinion (1000CP) upgrade should also increase CPs by 200-300, apart from the resource increase, just like the Outpost of Lothlorien.

6. The only leadership in the entire two realms that can affect each other, is the one from Lady Galadriel as a Ring Hero. Both Good and Evil. She is the most splendid Elf in Middle-Earth after all. She brings the two factions ''together'' so to speak, even though Celeborn and Thranduil negotiated after the conflict.

A final note: I am sure I missed a couple of things, but these are some of my thoughts on how to tackle the issue of Mirkwood being ''subjected'' to Lothlorien. The factions share similar mechanics, but with some key differences, the most notable one being the exclusiveness from each other's Realms, with the leaderships and the cost reductions. Also, all their ''Outpost'' can be turned into Elven Fortresses, which seems quite a logical way for the Elves to expand, if they would. Don't take these suggestions too seriously though, I enjoy Lothlorien and Mirkwood's current dynamic quite a bit as well and I type this simply for discussion material. Still, any thoughts or remarks are more than welcome.

Odysseus out.
 

Finrod_(Felagund):
I am sory but this may not happen because the map system is unique for arnor and other wise this wont be unique anymore and the beginning choice is unique for the dwarves and every faction needs to be unique so I am totally against this in every way posible

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