[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Rohan Suggestions

Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas

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Elite KryPtik:
EDIT: Here is a list of all the ideas presented to help Rohans late game thus far in this thread. If any new ideas are posted I will add them to the list. Original post in its entirety untouched below for those who want to read the whole thread.

My Ideas: Firstly, to increase the cost of Royal Breeding and decrease the cost of Summon Galadhrim, to 6 and 3 respectively, and flip their spots in the spellbook, while also decreasing the cost of The 3 Hunters to 6 points to make sure the spellbook is balanced. Also, if the team thinks it would be better, perhaps the Royal Breeding power should be put on the right side of the spellbook and The 3 Hunters on left, so that people don't always go left for Ents. Now, the Royal Breeding power in this situation would be made much stronger, granting 50% health, armor, and 50% less trample revenge damage from pikes, and finally it would give 200% less trample deceleration. The idea here is that with this, Rohans cavalry could do some epic charges and trample for much longer periods of time, while taking less damage, to help them survive long enough to actually do some damage against the late game pike spam of Isengard, Dwarves and Gondor. Now obviously, none of these stats are final, and the team has the last word.

My second idea is that since the heroes of Rohan are likely riding Mearas Horses, they should have better natural speed, trample damage and less trample deceleration than any other mounted hero in the game, besides Gandalf. Therefore I would propose to increase their trample damage by at least 50%, and their trample deceleration should be much slower, and speed much higher. Mearas are the most incredible horses in Middle Earth, and I feel this is not accurately represented at the moment.

Finally, I had a minor idea to add on to Hamans idea of an economy upgrade, to give Rohan a new building for economy upgrades and let them unlock a couple of different upgrades, 1 for Flour Mills 1 for Stud Farms.

Hamans Ideas: His first idea was to buff Rohans economy by adding economy upgrades to the fortress after Théoden is cured, and allowing Rohan to get upgrade discounts if they buy more armories. His next idea was to increase the strength of Spear Throwers against heavy units such as Veterans and Tower Guards. Thirdly, he proposed that my idea for Royal Breeding should be made a standard upgrade at the stables or armory, unlocked after Théoden is cured, and to replace the 3 point Royal Breeding power with something else. Finally, he proposed that Rohan should get some defensive upgrades late game, such as Fire Arrows for their towers.

Django suggested that the strength of Rohirrim Archers against pikes should be increased, but that their weakness to archers should also be increased.

Elendils Cousin and Mandos both suggested to make the Galadhrim Summon permanent, except for Haldir.

Morwereth suggested to increase Eomers Strength late game, and redo his abilities to either be more Unit Supporter of Mass Slayer oriented, instead of a mix of the 2.

Draco100000 suggested adding some new late game units, either heavy infantry or cavalry, to help Rohans late game from gaining map control. He also suggested that some kind of upgraded discount should be added, but wasn't specific about it.

ORIGINAL POST BELOW

OK, so we all know that Rohan late game is still quite weak. We also know that the team has rejected adding more Infantry or Cavalry to Rohan's roster. So what then does that leave us with? Spellbook Powers.

Right now, the Galadhrim summon is quite weak. I would personally call it maybe a 4 and a half point power. So this is my idea: Swap Galadhrim and Royal Breeding powers in costs. Make the Galadhrim summon 2 units of Galadhrim and Haldir, and cost 3 points, and make Royal Breeding cost 6 points. To balance this the 3 hunters should be brought down from 7 to 6 points as well.

Now, for my actual idea. Let me quote the book on this one: "Gandalf: And then I was glad, for in the Riddermark of Rohan the Rohirrim, the Horse-lords, dwell, and there are no horses like those that are bred in that great vale between the Misty Mountains and the White".

Now in addition, A passage about the Mearas from the LOTR Wiki: "The Mearas were a breed of wild horses in the north of Middle-earth. They surpass normal horses in intelligence, speed and strength. According to lore, the ancestors of the Mearas were brought from the West by Béma. They were descended from Felaróf, who was tamed by the first King of Rohan, Eorl. The descendants of Felaróf would later become the mounts of the King of Rohan, and would bear no one except for the Kings of the Mark and their sons"

Now, if this is not proof beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Horses of the Rohirrim are simply beyond any others in Middle Earth, I don't know what is. So my proposal is thus: Make Royal Breeding an extremely strong power, much stronger than it currently is. At level 3 any cavalry of Rohan gain +50% health and armor, +50% resistance to pikes, and -200% trample deceleration, letting them trample much longer than any other cavalry in the game. This would symbolize the incredible nature of the Mearas horses quite well.

Now, I realize that technically Mearas are only ridden by the Royal House of Rohan, however; this is why I quoted Gandalf. He states that even the horses belonging to the peasants of Rohan are better than those elsewhere in Middle Earth. Additionally, you would still have to get cavalry to level 3 for the ability to take effect, so you would not just immediately become extremely strong right out of the gate. Every other faction in the game has some form of really strong unit for late game, EXCEPT for Rohan. This would fill the gap without requiring any new units.

Finally, since the Mearas are meant to be the most incredible horses in all of Middle Earth, I think that both the Heroes of Rohan and Royal Guard should have more speed, trample damage and less trample deceleration than any other mounted hero/hero battalion in the game, even Imrahil. The only other mounted hero with similar speed and strength to Rohans heroes should be Gandalf, due to Shadowfax being a Mearas. That is the last idea that I can come up with to perhaps improve Rohans late game, without adding new units to the game.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
I won't comment too much on your idea other than saying that initially I don't like it that much. A passive buff of that strength will force your opponent to literally build only pikes and upgrade them with forged blades. Cavalry is, by design, the strongest unic type; it counters two other basic unit types and can outrun its counter. If they are allowed to permanently (since its a passive buff) even fight their counter and roflstomp everything else it can get out of hand pretty fast. So yeah, initially I'd say no to that idea.

I do agree with your comment about Haldir though. I never get that spell until the very end because those archers are just not doing enough. So, why not buff it instead? Initially, the Galadhrim were supposed to stay on the field without a timer. It got changed during the beta though, and I don't remember why. Reverting that change would be a nice buff imo. It would give Rohan some elite archers (and temporary hero support, since Haldir would keep his timer obviously) without being anywhere close to making Rohan an archer faction, because it's still only two batallions and the cooldown is still quite substantial.

Elite KryPtik:
The thing is, everybody always just spams pikes against Rohan already anyways, because most pikes can beat Peasants once upgraded. So that really wouldn't be changing at all.

EDIT: Additionally, did not the team design Rohan to be a cavalry faction? I don't understand if that was the intent why Rohan cavalry are so weak by nature. Every other faction has something incredibly strong they can employ:
Isengard gets Shieldbearers and Captains.
Gondor gets Tower Guards.
Dwarves get Veterans, which can easily make themselves immune to trample, and, due to a bug, are immune to trample by default right now.
Lothlorien gets Beornings and Galadhrim, who can survive trample fairly well on elven wood and defensive stance, or can completely negate it with Minstrels.
Mordor gets hordes of free units, an incredibly strong debuff from Nazgul, a whole bunch of free permasummons, and finally 2(3 if u can black riders) heroic units.

Rohan is currently the only faction who does not have something extremely powerful for late game. Even Royal Guard can only trample a single unit of free orcs before getting stuck! It seems to me to be kind of counterproductive to design Rohan as a cavalry faction and give everybody very strong, cheap pike units.

Finally, obviously these stats don't have to be final or anything. I'm just proposing that the power be strengthened. There are other solutions to Rohan's late game issues, but they have all been rejected so far. At least this would require minimal effort to implement and test out, and be balanced accordingly. I'm not saying that they should completely murder pikes, but just that they gain more resistance to them, and more deceleration just to give Rohan a fighting chance late game.

DrHouse93:
I agree that Rohan's late game is weak compared to other factions, and I also agree that Rohan's heavy units should focus on cavalry, rather than infantry. The problem in a Rohirrim charge is that most of the time, when crushing against fully upgraded pikes, half of the batallion already dies. The other half will follow it soon in the incoming melee fight. This is because of the ridicolous amount of damage pikes can do on cavalry, which is good for other factions or in the early game, but it becomes bad in different cases, such as this

I once read that physically speaking, to stop a cavalry charge like that at Minas Tirith, the Orcs would have need atleast three rows of pikes long atleast 3 meters: The first line would have to lean their pikes at 45°, holding them by both their strength and by implanting them on the ground, while the two following lines would have to lean their pikes at 60°

Of course, I'm not asking to implement such an hard concept ingame, but I still find ridiculous that an army of Rohirrim fully armed and buffed by their powerful heroes are forced to miserably die against the Tower Guards or the "Phalanx Uruk-hai". My proposals are therefore three:

1. An improvement to the Heavy Armor upgrade, which applies to both cavarly and infantry (for those who prefer to use that): any unit of Rohan with this upgrade is 40% less vulnerable to its counter. Cavarly it's also slowed down more slowly

2. An improvement of Theoden's leadership, with the same effects

3. As Kryptic proposed, an improvement of the "Royal Bred Horses" power, which could be named "A red day, a sword day" (can't think at a different name, sorry xD), but the effects are the ones above mentioned

Why this stat boost? Because Rohan's infantry is already weaker than the elite infantry of other factions, while the Rohirrim die too easily against fully armed pikes. By granting them this improvement, you could avoid Rohan's units to die so easily against their natural counters (Pikes for Cavalry and Cavalry for Infantry) and therefore giving Rohan a chance to actually inflict some damage to powerful Late Game factions, like Isengard, the Dwarves and Gondor, too, while not turning the Rohirrim invincible, since the buff only applies against the units' counters

Elite KryPtik:
That seems like a fair proposal to me. You hit the nail on the head, the rate at which Rohan's units get slaughtered late game, combined with their weak economy(Rohan has easily worst eco in the game) means they just can't succeed late game. Of course, they do have a really strong early game, but many people(myself included) don't like getting map control and rushing a ram spam to win. I want to get epic cavalry charges late game, I want Théoden to hit level 10 and get Glorious Charge, but if I wait to get these late game engagements then I basically forfeit the game.
It sucks :(

So lets get this discussion going, lets make Rohan's late game better. Call to action, let the ideas flow forth!

Also, minor thing, but if Royal Breeding is to be renamed, I suggest "Muster the Rohirrim!"

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