Mordor concept (New)

[Azog The Defiler]

Please read
Before commenting any further, the concept has been reworked.

So i decided to rework this concept completly, for several reasons, but mainly because of constructive critique which i thank you for:) And to make it more reasonable.

Now this is a lot of text, but a lot of it is pictures videos and descriptions of designs, the actual changes wouldnt be that much.

Mordor at the moment is perfect concerning units and balance. Its mostly unit desings that worry me. If you are a big fan of the Minas Morgul army as most people are then the faction is more than perfect. But if you, like me want to have a Dol Guldur army like in the movie the faction feels as if the Dol Guldur part is a little left out.

So heres what i propose to give all the players who liked the army in the hobbit an army they deserve.

And im not expecting any of this soon (or ever) But maybe when all factions are out, it could be a nice little project:D


Mordor concept

Now this concept does not affect the game play in any way. That is a statement i want to make, so there will be no changes concerning balance to make for this change to be able.
The concept is mainly about changing unit desings to give the player more feeling when playing the faction. And the the other changes dont change balance but i think youll find them pretty awesome!

The idea
In the beginning of the game you choose between Dol Guldur and Minas Morgul as if you chose between two subfactions.
But the only thing that changes are the designs of your units to fit the army you want to build. And the other things that change dont really change the balance, which is one new unit, but you will see;)

Heroes
-Minas Morgul - Gothmog
-Dol Guldur - The general of Dol Guldur
-I will come to his design later


Troll cave
Works as normally with Saurons influence
If Minas Morgul is chosen
-trolls have the classic armor they have now
If Dol Guldur is chosen
-trolls have the armor they have in botfa

Orc pit
-The orc pit is now able to build Overseers from the very beginning, but they are weaker than they are now.
-Now when you use Saurons influence on the orc pit you unlock orc captains, which have the same effect as the overseers they are only stronger, but they have different designs based on which faction you choose
-Minas Morgul: Minas Morgul Captain
-Dol Guldur: Dol Guldur captain
-The captains are more expensive than the overseers and work as usual with the slave camp bonus.

-Dol Guldur captains have the look of the orc in front of azogs army
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/ORC13.jpg

-Minas Morgul captains would have the look of Guritz http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/4b/Crew_of_Guritz.png/revision/latest?cb=20121127120505

Dol Guldur
-The Dol Guldur orcs get a slight rework, mainly concerning helmets, swords, spears and the armor they have on their backs in the movie, and the variation in shields.
-They also get the same animation of the Minas Morgul orcs, instead of the normal orc animation they have now.


The General of Dol Guldur
-The general of Dol Guldur would be a leader hero instead of Gothmog if you choose Dol Guldur in the beginning
-He wil practically have the same abilities as Gothmog but with a little tweaks to fit Dol Guldur army better.
-Level 1 Dol Guldur reinforcements, Summon a unit of Dol Guldur orcs (this ability gets better as he levels up)
-Level 2 Mount up
-Level 4 Leadership
-Level 6 Commander of legions, The general can give experience to units in a medium sized area
- Level 10 Come forth my armies, The general gives all the orcs a large increase in damage and movement speed

Now moving on to his design. Now i dont know if many will oppose this design, but i think it is perfect.
So there is a art design for Azog with a helmet. I want to give Azogs battle armor to this character with the helmet. And give the armor a Darker colour to fit the Dol Guldur orcs better. He would of course have two hands so you dont confuse him with The Defiler.
And to make it clear, they arent the samne character in the game. The General of Dol Guldur just wear Azogs movie armor with a couple of tweaks.

I think this is a good idea because since The Defiler is a part of MM, it is a little weird for him to have armor in class with the troops from Mordor. So the defiler stays the way he is and gets no extra armor. This way it interferes even less with the lore.

http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfa1/t51.2885-15/s306x306/e15/10949006_432542910242073_1101637886_n.jpg Heres the helmet for him, which i think looks epic! the one to the left or in the middle is good.

http://www.artofvfx.com/HOBBIT3/HOBBIT3_WETA_ITW_06.jpg

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/HobbitBFATrailer2n.jpg

http://www.larpinn.co.uk/images/orclongsword.jpg
http://pre00.deviantart.net/c34d/th/pre/i/2015/177/9/1/skyrim_orcish_greatsword_by_doublezerofx-d8yv9ff.jpg
These would be cool weapons for him, but bigger, or more broad.

The General of Dol Guldur would ride the same warg as Gothmog, but a black one instead, to really differ him from the Defiler.

So with this design he wouldnt look anything like The Defiler, exept his size, but other than that nothing alike, so the Dol Guldur orcs would get a worthy leader.


IMAGES AND VIDEOS:
Dol Guldur trolls:
http://r58.imgup.net/Trolls9240.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHHrPA80j7E

Dol Guldur orcs:
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/ORC13.jpg
https://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v3/media/galerie/hobbit001/dos_trailer2/dos39-cb210126.jpg
I like the design on the armor on their backs in this and the following one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THu4gwA2GQA at 0:25 Also that is a great war chant for the orcs!
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/peter-jacksons-the-hobbit/images/0/08/The_Battle_of_Five_Armies_04.png/revision/latest?cb=20151017173805 heres the different shield i was talking about
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/pjmidearthfilms/images/0/06/Azog's_Lieutenant_3.png/revision/latest?cb=20150609023812 this helmet is pretty cool
http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/874/873509/Gundabag_concept_art1.jpg


Come forth my armies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW-IgJHM3cY  Also in this clip we can see the orcs have two different kinds of shields, i think the swordsman troop should have both shields at random.

[The_Necromancer0]

With all the due respect: No.

This is a great idea and you have thoroughly explained it but I'm getting a serious MM vibe from the Dol Guldur part. And you haven't done as much work on the Minas Morgul part which really makes it rather unbalanced.

Mordor has a variety and mass of different troops, however, are weaker in direct fight

The number of troops is a key strategy for Mordor, all of its units are weaker then their equivalent in other faction (even though free orcs is definitely a plus) along with that they have very little upgrades and no armor upgrades, where as Isengard can push forth pretty far with uruk paired with shields and upgraded to level 5, once you've paired orcs with overseers that's pretty much how far you get for permanent boost combos.
Without the witch-king, Mordor loses its most powerful hero killer (apart from gorthaur), without Khamul it is severely cut on the building destruction side. Along with that the Dread visage will lose some power as all the nazguls can no longer be recruited.
Drummer trolls, while vastly underused, can be effectively used to power up troops, taking them away, along with the heavily armored Minas Morgul units will seriously cut back on the damage Mordor can inflict.
As for the siege that's too many trolls, the Defiler would be the first hero present in two factions permanently, the were-worms are much more iconic to MM then Dol-Guldur who prefers to slowly spread its corruption.
Overall it's too much like MM, although we know little from it. And finally (a final grain of salt) how can something be more complete if we split it in two? The sub-factions complement each other one based on raw power and the other on magic and cunning trick of deceit. Your ideas are very well presented and thoroughly researched but I think you are targeting the wrong parts of the mod.

Sincerely,
The Necromancer

[Walküre]

Sorry, Azog, if I might seem to be always categorically against your ideas or unappreciative.
But, as the Necromancer made very valid counter arguments, this proposal doesn't convince me either.

The main reason is that I don't really understand the purposes behind these changes; plus, I kind of notice some similarities both in content and in intentions with your previous MM suggestion.
I think you are still concerned about how giving Azog his commander motive of BOTFA and looking for a representation of Dol Guldur much closer to the one of the Hobbit (while it already is very similar, I would say) 

I have the feeling that Mordor would be unnecessarily fragmented, and have its conceptual essence divided, taking also into consideration that Mordor itself is indeed characterised by a wide diversity, kept together though by the authoritarian and terrible leadership that Sauron represents and uses to convey all his desires and plans of dominion.

The Dwarves can rely on this system – the subfactions – given each realm's independence and autonomy regarding various aspects.
It's true that Mordor would remain the core faction, but I don't understand why one subfaction should exclude the other, when they can easily coexist as in the current system 

[Azog The Defiler]

Well most of my ideas are made because of the next reasons:

When playing Mordor as of now, im a huge fan of the evil army in botfa (most of it)
And seeing as of now Mordor is the only faction providing any material from the movie, the MM faction only provides only the leader, Azog going as the defiler, and even he is not part of his own army, the Dol Guldur army.

And the only thing from the botfa army in the game is the Dol Gudur orcs, but its not really the same as you have them mixed with all the stuff from Minas Morgul, such as trolls, catapults, Grond etc.

It would be really awesome to be able to choose wether youre in the mood fro some lotr or hobbit battles.

A better idea
Maybe a better idea would be to choose in the beginning between the two but neither one gets removed, just things like designs get changed.

So playing as Minas Morgul it would be exactly the same as it is now, and playing as Dol Guldur would have some of the changes i mentioned but you would still have the ability to have both fortresses, you would just get more bonuses for either one based upon which faction you choose to play.

[Fredius]

Well I wouldn't consider Azog as part of Dol Guldur, he is the leader of the Gundabad orcs (or Moria orcs during the battle of Azanulbizar) Gundabad/Moria = Misty Mountains. Edain aims to be more true to the lore than to the movies; for that reason Azog does not belong to Mordor, because he didn't have anything to do with Mordor or Dol Guldur.

Furthermore, in the mod, the Defiler is not Azog, the team only took his title and appearance. So it wouldn't make sense to transfer the Defiler to Mordor as he is the leader of Gundabad, not Dol Guldur.

I find Mordor to be one of the most enjoyable factions in the game, it doesn't need these changes imo.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

little question guys :

as far as i know the dul guldor's orcs are from The Misty Mountains just like azog and they came to dul guldor to make un Alliance with The Necromancer .

is that info right ?

[Fredius]

Yeah (in the movie then ).

[The_Necromancer0]

little question guys :

as far as i know the dul guldor's orcs are from The Misty Mountains just like azog and they came to dul guldor to make un Alliance with The Necromancer .

is that info right ?

WHO SUMMONS ME? I SHALL SMITE ALL IMPUDENT.... what do you mean not me? ahhh the other necromancer, my bad, carry on.

While this is correct according to the wiki, the same wiki also states that this is non-canon since it comes from the movie. Also while it is true that they come from the MM the Team has customized them to adapt them to the poisonous aura of Dol Guldur.

[Azog The Defiler]

Yes in the movie it was Moria orcs that gathered in Dol Guldur, and probably from other parts also. Gandalf talks about the army as "ranks and ranks of moria orcs".
But yea thats only the hobbit, i nthe book there was no allience between them and Dol Guldur.

But does anyone see my point, that the faction only supports a Minas Morgul army, the Dol Guldur part of the faction feels a little left out, since you can only have the orcs, and not the epic trolls etc.

It would be nice to be able to have atleast the trolls from the hobbit besides your army.

[The_Necromancer0]

The trolls could be an interesting addition, this would most probably help with the current troll problem, supplying the player with heavily armored trolls ready for combat instead of the mountain trolls that should serve as portable sieg but get shot down too fast. Adding some sort of troll is definitely an idea I support

[Azog The Defiler]

Glad to hear you liked something of it:DD

But i made a few changes for the concept, perhaps a little bit more resonable, now nothing changes for the ones who already liked the faction, but for those wanting a little bit more hobbit would get their minds blown!:)

[Melkor Bauglir]

Yes in the movie it was Moria orcs that gathered in Dol Guldur, and probably from other parts also. Gandalf talks about the army as "ranks and ranks of moria orcs".

Which makes me believe PJ actually completely forget the first trilogy, because it makes absolutely no sense, considering the Moria orcs looked like how orcs / goblins are supposed to look (small & degenerated) and not like the 3m high, battle-crazy, hulking behemoths of the Hobbit.

And calling most these trolls "epic" is something I couldn't agree less. The first step in the creative process of creating these trolls probably was something like: "Well, we have some special effects budget left. OK, these trolls look just too realistic. Well, first let's increase the size of the trolls by 20... no, that's too small... ok, 100%." And so, the BotFA trolls came into this world.
This of course doesn't apply to the normal armored trolls of the Hobbit, they looked fine. But things like the Trolltapult or the Battering Troll were all scenes when I was just laughing hysterically in the cinema.

However speaking from a gameplay sense: Mordor has already the biggest roster of troops of all the factions. So what's the point in adding more trolls? I remember that way back in the past when Edain was massively more random, Mordor had a total of 5 different types of trolls, 3 of them were mostly the same. There is a reason why the ET was able to tune it down to 2 trolls without actually losing something gameplay wise.
Also historically, that's what Mordor is... Shoehorning Sauron and Dol Guldur into the main antagonists of the Hobbit was already dumb enough as it is (because it opens a whole new meaning to the term "bad planning"). It also means that it wasn't Mordor which attacked in the BotFA, so design Mordor according to something, that isn't Mordor? The orc models are an exception to this because the Misty Mountains already have a Gundabad design, Dol Guldurs design is of course unknown, so these orc models were basically just lying around.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Azog The Defiler]

Well the only "new" troll unit would be the siege trolls and they would only be if you chose Dol Guldur in the beginning of the game to add a litle bit more "hobbit" into your gameplay.
The other armored trolls is just a different design your trolls get as you choose your theme in the beginning of the game.

And the trolls would be normal sized, as i stated in the begining, bringing only the good stuff from the hobbit:D

And Dol Guldur launched an attack on the Elves at practically the same time Minas Morgul launched their attack on Minas Tirith, there is just no material of that. But the orcs and trolls probably had a very different armor there than in the regions close to Mordor.

Also fun fact, i think PJ mentioned at some time that he had no idea what he was doing when he did the Hobbit movies.. The lotr trilogy he planned for several years before he made it, so that probably why he fcked up so badly.

[Hamanathnath]

Before I go into my opinion on this idea, I would like to say that I'm pretty sure it is impossible to have different spellbooks for subfaction (which is why all 3 Dwarven Subfactions have the same Spellbook powers).

I do like a lot of the ideas suggested, but I'm not a fan of the major idea of changing Mordor like this.  However, it would be cool to see some of these elements added to the Misty Mountains faction itself.  Maybe a Spellbook that allows the faction to summon Dol Guldur orcs and/or Siege Trolls would be pretty cool.

Also, I do agree that the Dol Guldur outpost is overshadowed by the Minas Morgul outpost, because Heavy Armour for orcs is just a more useful upgrade then the Poison Blades in my opinion.  However, I don't really see a way to change this without just adding more units to Dol Guldur or weakening the Minas Morgul orcs, both of which I strongly don't want to happen. 

I do like the ideas presents here though, and would love to see some of them expanded on. 

Yeah, after I really think about it, Sauron summoning Moria orcs to attack Erebor from Dol Guldur in PJ's Hobbit Trilogy doesn't really make much sense, especially since they look NOTHING like they do in the Lotr Trilogy.   

[Walküre]

Before I go into my opinion on this idea, I would like to say that I'm pretty sure it is impossible to have different spellbooks for subfaction (which is why all 3 Dwarven Subfactions have the same Spellbook powers).

Correct.

It's the main reason why Arnor couldn't be implemented with that switching/subfaction system as well, along with other conceptual reasons.
It's a technical issue that can't be overcome.