[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings

The History of the Noldor

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Adamin:
Very amazing Thread indeed. That is a great collection of Noldor history. ^^

I would add to your telling of Fëanors birth, that his Mother Míriel didn't just die because of the physical strain of childbirth. She was consumed in spirit and body, she was spent by bringing Fëanors burning spirit into the world.

--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor ---[Míriel:]"Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor."
--- Ende Zitat ---
That it's not just a weariness of her body is also evident in that she was afterwards given into the care of Irmo and Estë in Lórien, the place of physical healing and refreshment in Valinor, but even they couldn't help her and she passed into Mandos Halls.
So Fëanor was just so awesome (in the archaic terrifying sense), that his mother had to completely give herself up and put all of her strength into him. In a sense, she was the first to be consumed by the fire of his spirit...

Other than that, your summary is pretty spot on. You could have added some focus on the Silmarils (for example them also being a reason for Fëanor to leave Valinor and pursue Morgoth), and I would like to see a fully detailed description of the Oath of Fëanor (after all that is the most relevant and recurring motive of the Noldor), but those are just cherries. ^^
I totally forgot that the Doom of Mandos was spoken after the kinslaying and that Fëanor sneaked away with the boats! Thanks for reminding me. :)


--- Zitat ---On a personal note, I'm not quite sure when the rebellion reached the point of no return, where the Noldor, no matter what would have rebelled. Perhaps when Melkor instructed them in the making of blades? The mere fact that they made blades means they would eventually use them.

--- Ende Zitat ---
Mmmh, hard to say. Since Fëanor was the main force behind the rebellion I'd say its finally bound to him and his rage after Morgoths escape.


--- Zitat ---Feanor took the fleet with his loyal men and forced them to burn the ships even as Fingolfin led his host across the grinding ice, determined now more than ever to reach middle-earth. What drives such loyalty, and was it even loyalty? Was him saying "thou shalt lead and I shalt follow" really that important?
--- Ende Zitat ---
That's a really interesting thought! I actually think it had also something to do with responsibility. With their father dead and Fëanor turning fey (great word by the way) Fingolfin had to follow his brother and keep him in check. You could say that he really dodged that bullet. ^^


--- Zitat ---Also, just out of curiosity, if you guys could support any one Elvish Lord or King, who would you support, and why?
--- Ende Zitat ---
For me it's a tie between Fingolfin and Finrod Felagond. The first one was pretty amazing, but Finrod just sounds so damn likable in the Silmarillion. ^^
He's wise, just, and forsighted. He founded two great dwellings in Beleriand  and he was a friend to almost everyone, be it Elf, Men or Dwarf. And most importantly: He's the perfect example for someone holding to his oath no matter what.



--- Zitat ---(and you cannot pick Galadriel Walk, cause we can all see that coming a mile away. :D)
--- Ende Zitat ---
At least a thousand miles! xD



--- Zitat ---Galadriel, though, survived and remained in Middle Earth as the de facto Queen of all Elves
--- Ende Zitat ---
Except for, you know, the Avari. :P

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 20. Feb 2016, 17:17 ---
--- Zitat ---Galadriel, though, survived and remained in Middle Earth as the de facto Queen of all Elves
--- Ende Zitat ---
Except for, you know, the Avari. :P

--- Ende Zitat ---

You know, the Avari don't really matter; they are like the uncivilised and wild relatives that you would never desire to meet  :D
Anyway, I meant 'survived the War of the Jewels'  ;)

Besides, if I may, I would like to add to the debate what a not specified Messenger of Manwë (what if it were Eönwë?) says in front of Fëanor to try to confront his madness, prior to the Kinslaying and the Destiny of Mandos.


--- Zitat ---But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'
--- Ende Zitat ---
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of the Flight of the Noldor.

We can clearly extrapolate what the Valar had always foreseen about any kind of attempt to rebel against their authority.
Especially, that final line is a real wound to Fëanor's pride, I would say  8-)
Well deserved, I say, for having thought and said all those horrible things referring to the Noldor's (Eldar's) true benefactors.

VectorMaximus:
Personally I believe that Finarfin would step down for his father once he was reincarnated, but that's just my personal opinion. I don't believe that the exile automatically causes them to lose all their standing in Aman. While the Valar may be the final authority, the Noldor have a right to choice who are their kings, of which Finwe was their first chosen lord and King. In addition, Finwe did not rebel against the Valar and in fact tried to temper his people in their sayings against them.

About the Noldor never being able to defeat a Vala; Morgoth eventually becomes so weak by spreading out his powers amongst his servants that he cannot change form any longer and his body cannot heal. Combine this with the fact that an Elda (Fingolfin) was able to permanently wound him, it seems that eventually the Noldor, if Feanor had not sundered himself from Fingolfin, may have eventually been able to disincarnate Morgoth. At that point he would have been easy picking for the Valar. Now, obviously when the Valar proclaimed their warning, the Noldor stood no shot, because Morgoth was not shape-shifter locked then, and much stronger. However, no unweakened Vala could be defeated by an elf, this is true.

And Adamin, I edited in a section on the Oath.

Walküre:
What if neither Finwë nor Fingolfin never had the intention of claiming that title?
Especially – given that I always pictured in my mind Finwë forever 'assisting' his most beloved son in the Halls of Mandos – Fingolfin, the noble and valiant, would never be interested in that position anymore, because he nonetheless had to face death and the consequent redemption to be accepted again in Valinor; even though no terrible crimes can be accountable to him (at least, not to his direct will), I guess he is surely aware of the Rebellion he took part, the Kinslaying and the Exile from the Immortal Lands that later occurred.
So, I believe Fingolfin would just accept his destiny and the fact that Finarfin was exactly crowned king due to his untainted loyalty.
There are various possible speculations that we can make; this is the interesting aspect of these debates  ;)

I would take that line from the Messenger of Manwë as quite lapidary and absolute.
No Elf, Dwarf or Human could ever kill a Vala, no matter how weakened it could be.
Consider that Morgoth had already his powers seriously diminished when he fought against Fingolfin, being eventually able to kill the Noldorin King.
Moreover, even in Morgoth's ultimate moment of defeat, only Eönwë (the Chief of the Maiar of Aman) had the power to confront him and bind him with Angainor; not to mention that all the previous defeats of Melkor are accountable to Tulkas only (a Vala).
I would legitimately think that no Vala could ever be taken down by anyone else but an Ainu  :)

VectorMaximus:
Yeah, I guess its unlikely either Fingolfin or Finwe would want the position anymore to be honest, after all the grief and stress it brought them. I hadn't really thought about Finwe staying in the halls to help Feanor, but that really seems just like him, so I'll buy it.

First off, I want to make sure that when you say kill a Vala, you mean disincarnate (destroy their physical body). I guess we will just have to disagree, but I do feel like I need to clarify; even weakened, no single Elf, no matter how strong, could win against Morgoth. However, (again my personal view) if the 'mighty' among the Eldar such as Ingwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, and Elu Thingol were to unite (not likely, but theoretically) and attack as one, they could together defeat Morgoth. And it takes a lot more strength to actually bind Morgoth, in my opinion (after all, you have to fight his strength the whole time you are binding him), whereas you just need 1 or 2 lucky strikes when you are aiming to kill. Elves have killed Maia before - Gothmog, Ungoliant, various Balrogs, etc, though there is such a massive power disparity between the Vala and Maia that argument has almost no bearing. However, isn't Turin, a mere mortal man, prophesized to be the one that kills Morgoth at last forever?

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