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Autor Thema: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts  (Gelesen 11392 mal)

aminetude

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We all wanted to know if another middle-earth movie will be made by Peter Jackson and his team, and since WB(=Warner Bros) got only the rights to LOTR and The Hobbit, it won't be very safe to presume they will make a movie about the Silmarillion, or based on any of the other books, but i guess they are two options that can be used, and probably will be used by WB to create another movie/movies,
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Mär 2016, 18:37 von DieWalküre »
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Fredius

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Re: Upcoming middle earth film/films
« Antwort #1 am: 2. Mär 2016, 23:19 »
If there were to come a new Middle Earth movie it wont be made by Jackson, because he also stated that the Hobbit was the last time he would make one. But ofcourse I would love it if they would make more ME movies, I just hope there will be a director willing to do it. For WB it should also be good because ME movies are like goldmines.

Walküre

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Re: Upcoming middle earth film/films
« Antwort #2 am: 3. Mär 2016, 01:36 »
Well, thank you for reading and sorry for the long paragraph, if you think i am just saying nonsense i wouldn't mind at all, it is just what appears to me after taking a while to think of it.

Long paragraphs are really not an issue here, fortunately  xD

Well, I too would love to see other films about Middle Earth, and, specifically, I always dream and wonder in the depths of my mind whether someone will ever make a monumental and Oscar-worthy trilogy regarding the Silmarillion (only the War of the Jewels itself).
But, I'm also definitely aware that the chances are not really so high, at least in the meantime; and, as much as I thoroughly appreciated the whole Hobbit momentum, I would really like to see a return of the epic and majestic aura of the LOTR trilogy, of which Alfrid, Hilda Bianca or the zombie trolls were not part.

Anyway, since the Appendices deal with the Silmarillion, the Second Age and the whole Third Age too, I think there could indeed be various interesting aspects and events to explore in possible films  :)

Elrond probably refers to the Watchful Peace, which started, in the lore, when Gandalf visited Dol Guldur for the first time, almost 1000 years before the actual attack on Dol Guldur by the White Council (what is shown in the Hobbit).
But, yes, given the trilogy's particular interpretation, that 'peace' could rightly refer to the relatively stable equilibrium after the end of the war in the North.

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming middle earth film/films
« Antwort #3 am: 3. Mär 2016, 23:15 »
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #4 am: 4. Mär 2016, 01:11 »
And, I would add that – beside graphical problematics – there would be the monumental scripting matters to cope with, as the plot would embrace more than 600 years (not to mention the needed references about the previous times of Arda).
It would be a very extraordinary task managing to create a decent ensemble about an almost 600-year timeline, preserving the majestic aura of these legendary events, as the standards are definitely set far higher than LOTR  :)

The connection about Thranduil and Dragons is a bit of a gamble, though, since we don't have really so much direct lore references about it.
But, I definitely think it's about the terrible facts that Thranduil had to face by participating in the War of Wrath (if some Sindar ever did it), when most of the Dragons unleashed by the Enemy were of the kind of the Urulóki, the first and original wingless and snake-like Dragons.
The Winged Dragons were unleashed only at last, against the Host of the Valar, and they were mainly slain by Eärendil and the Eagles of Manwë gathered in the sky.
I honestly doubt Thranduil had to directly fight against such evil and almost irreducible creatures (Winged Dragons); furthermore, he says Great Serpents, thus using a description very akin to the one of the Urulóki.

Besides, you are not always forced to use the spoiler feature, aminetude.
Long texts are more than welcome, here  ;)

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #5 am: 4. Mär 2016, 08:50 »
I couldnt agree more, the timeline indeed will pose the biggest problem of them all i guess, and probably a trilogy might not be sufficient, i would even say a saga won't be enough, maybe they might do better, if it were to be turner into a serie, that way they could cover alot, although i doubt it will still have the same charm as the LOTR trilogy had.

 And thanks about informing me of the spoiler thing  ;)
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #6 am: 4. Mär 2016, 14:32 »
You know, I never really liked the idea of a serie, because, as you wrote, it would diminish a lot the characteristic epic momentum and element of great films/trilogies like LOTR or the Hobbit.

A trilogy might be sufficient – more than three hours per film though – or a saga of 4/5 films too.
The key point is exactly how to manage to deal with all these years rich of extraordinary things with innovative ideas and techniques (flashbacks, flashforwards, beginning in medias res, gaps among periods,...).

Even though, I have to say that the computation of time and pretty methodical division of events in the whole War of the Jewels might indeed be proven as a very useful property.
It could be easier organising a plot around the Battles of Beleriand, the specific dates and the birth and fall of the kingdoms in the actual story.

Therefore, I believe the person who will be able to achieve said things will definitely be worthy of an Oscar or more than one.
I often make some attempts in my mind about it, but, for now, I don't really have the time to get involved in such director-like matters  :P

Who knows, maybe in the future...

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #7 am: 4. Mär 2016, 16:15 »
I often make some attempts in my mind about it, but, for now, I don't really have the time to get involved in such director-like matters  :P
I never knew you had dealings with directing Mr. Walkure hahaha  xD xD
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #8 am: 5. Mär 2016, 17:15 »
It's just my mind wandering through unexplored spaces of imagination  xD

By the way, aminetude and people who are interested, I think we could play a bit, just for our amusement, by creating a script and plot structure for a hypothetical Silmarillion trilogy/saga  :)

I had thought about three films, each having different titles, but all having the name Silmarillion as the saga/trilogy title; as Lord of the Rings is for the three chapters of the LOTR trilogy.

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #9 am: 6. Mär 2016, 15:08 »
That's an interesting idea !
You know, i myself always try to re-imagine the dol'guldur fight scene, wich will properly respect the lore, i was hoping to see the three rings more involved since we were promised that this particular scene was extremely beautifull, but unfortunetly it didnt add much material, i mean we didnt even see the strongest of the three, vilya ! I always try to think of Saruman the white using his light powers, since in the book it was by his devices that sauron was driven out of Dol'guldur, it wasnt explained if there was a fight or not, but logically why Sauron would place himself near the presence of the white council, unless he is very prepared for them, i actually think Sauron may intially had taken dol'guldur to draw the white council to him, and slaughter them. Also Galadriel in her dark form was cool, but not very lore accurate, i dont mean i didnt like her, but we know galadriel can take the dark side only if the ring was given to her, and she accepts it, but anyway i could think she was a powerful witch, and she could a lot of magic. The thing that pains me most, is we didnt see much of the lady of light, i mean she is called the white lady, lady of light... These names bind her to the light and good in the world, i actually think the battle should have gone this way ( note that i won't say galadriel will heal gandalf, since in the book he already was strong and helped them fight against the Necromencer):


HAHA this is just but a tought, i think of many possible scenarios, i just got this one in my head right now  :D
PS: this is an interesting thread, do you think we should create another appropriate post for it ?
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Mär 2016, 14:42 von aminetude »
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #10 am: 7. Mär 2016, 00:58 »
That, aminetude, really was what I call like a very intense stream of thoughts.
I understand you well, since I too often do that operation in my mind, always trying to find a stabler and more innovative concept out of my personal vision and knowledge  ;)

Anyway, I was mainly focused on the Silmarillion, as it could be an interesting and plausible choice in case something else of Middle Earth were ever brought to screen again.

I can nonetheless modify a bit the title of this thread, if you want, in order to make it a wider space for possible upcoming films and speculations based on fan-thought scripts  :)

The destiny of this topic is all in your hands, aminetude  xD

VectorMaximus

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #11 am: 7. Mär 2016, 04:15 »
I would definitely agree a Silmarillion movie would be awesome (sad it's unlikely) . I would particularly enjoy a movie that deals with the degradation and political infighting in Tirion after Morgoth spreads his lies, ultimately culminating in the Rebellion of the Noldor.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Mär 2016, 11:02 »
Dealing with all the causes that built up the Noldor's resentment and caused their Exile would be extremely fascinating.

Even though, I believe it would suitably get into a possible plot in the form of each Noldorin Prince/Princess' memories, while they are stable in Beleriand.
For example, Galadriel recalling in Doriath the moment she stood up firmly in front of all the other members of her Royal Family and advocated the 'return to Middle Earth' cause  :)

hoho96

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #13 am: 7. Mär 2016, 12:36 »
@aminetude:
And the Oscar for the best Hobbit fighting scene goes to... *drums* ...aminetude!!!  xD
I would definitely have liked this more than the weird sweaty Galadriel.

Anyway, regarding the topic at hand, a Silmarilion movie(s) are doable (forget the license for a minute), but a Silmarilion movie in a LOTR caliber is definitely NOT doable at all.
From a pure movie critic pov, the time frame and setup is not movie-friendly at all. Due to the long time scale of the story, the development of events and growth of characters will either be too rushed, or too long. Just imagine what would it be like if Boromir's fall to the ring happened right after they left Revindel, or if Boromir didn't have any screen time involving Frodo and the ring until they were on AmonHen.
As I see it, the only story from the first age that actually make sense for a movie is the tale of Beren and Luthien.

Anyway, my personal favorite is a movie about the Fall of Arnor following two close friends from Rhudaur. When the eternal winter comes (i.e the Witch King) one of them chose to join the Witch King and became one of his captains, while the other didn't forsake his people and went to join the Dunedain of Arthadain.
The movie would climax at the battle of Amon Sul where one of them kill the other.
This would make a great standalone movie while at the same time keeps the door open for more sequels (following the war in general, but through the eyes of different characters. For example the second movie can follow a ranger of Cardoline, while the final may follow the last prince of Arthadain).

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film?
« Antwort #14 am: 7. Mär 2016, 14:12 »
I can nonetheless modify a bit the title of this thread, if you want, in order to make it a wider space for possible upcoming films and speculations based on fan-thought scripts  :)
The destiny of this topic is all in your hands, aminetude  xD
I would definetly be more than glad to have you change the title to make it suitable for this rich content' discussion. I have no idea of the new title, but any Silmarillion friendly title would do the work hahaha, i know you will come up with something great  ;)

And the Oscar for the best Hobbit fighting scene goes to... *drums* ...aminetude!!!  xD
I would definitely have liked this more than the weird sweaty Galadriel.
Thanks hoho96, that's very nice of you  xD.
And i adored your idea about the two friends, one goes evil and one goes good, i would even say if they were brothers it could make it much more interesting, and the death of one of them, or both ( i imagine after one kills the other, he suicides due to regret and pain ), it would be much more appealing than the Tauriel & Kili ending ( with all my respect to the fans of these two). Just wonderful, really a wonderful and amazing tought  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Mär 2016, 14:37 von aminetude »
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #15 am: 8. Mär 2016, 10:03 »
Ok, I changed the title of the topic  :)
Now, it will embrace also our fan-made scripts, not solely related to the Silmarillion (even though this is my primary interest).

Yes, hoho, I too think something valuable could be concretely made about Beren and Lúthien only, albeit understanding that, in this case, a lot of references about the past and current (of that time) setting of the events (Valinor, the Two Trees, the War of the Jewels,...) would be necessarily left out of the plot, or mentioned in a very brief way.
That's why I think a trilogy or saga consisting of long – very long – chapters which will manage to cope with all the said cinematographic issues will be the revolutionary phenomenon of the century's motion picture  8-)

But, we must not lose hope  :D

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #16 am: 8. Mär 2016, 10:17 »
I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:

1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.

2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.

3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.

I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe.

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #17 am: 8. Mär 2016, 16:16 »
I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:

1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.

2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.

3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.

I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe.
I like this, very much ! Now we only need a competent director to take up arms and start making the movies :) hahahaha
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VectorMaximus

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #18 am: 8. Mär 2016, 19:42 »
I always imagined the story of Tuor (and Earendil) to be a very good possibility for a film adaption. If someone wanted to make a trilogy, the story could be split up like this:

1) The first film would tell the story of Tuor's journey to Gondolin, covering his youth in Hithlum and his travels through Nevrast and Beleriand, with the Orc ambush near the Sirion being the climax of the film. At the beginning, a short prologue about the Nirnaeth Arnoediad could be used to introduce the characters of Turgon and Huor and their fateful connection. The film would end with Tuor being escorted into the Hidden Valley. The main characters would be Tuor and Voronwe.

2) The second film would be about Tuor's life in Gondolin, with the battle and fall of the city being the climax. The prologue could be about Aredhel and provide the backstory for the main antagonist, Maeglin. The main characters would be Tuor, Turgon, Idril and Maeglin.

3) The third film would be about Earendil and Elwing, with Tuor fading into the background. The main character here would be Earendil.

I think those three films would work well as a cohesive narrative and would not require much background knowledge, I believe.
I like this, very much ! Now we only need a competent director to take up arms and start making the movies :) hahahaha

I fully support this, but good luck getting Christopher Tolkien to let you make it! (Course, there's always the nonprofit route, but I would rather have a full scale production for any further Tolkien movies) :D

I also feel like a really good way of doing a Silmarillion movie is having Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond telling tales of the past ages to Frodo and Bilbo on their trip westward. Have them commentate over the actions occuring most of the time, except in drastic moments such as the Oath of Feanor. This way it would be possible to maintain the more 'commentative' nature of the Silmarillion, rather than a direct story.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #19 am: 8. Mär 2016, 22:46 »
That's actually funny, because I seem to be the only one who never, ever wants another cinematic realization of Middle Earth. xD "Why?", you may ask with all the rights to do so.
I'd like to point out, that it's not because I fancy the Hobbit trilogie simply as a cinematic desaster -that is indeed true for a variety of very fundamental thoughts, much too numerous to write them down here. However it has actually nothing to do with it, it's something entirely different and I already see the cry of outrage:
I don't think that (from a dramatic point of view) Tolkien's work is that great, apart from (obviously) the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and to an extent the Children of Húrin. Now, this statement may create a number of bitter enemies, but let me at least try to explain. This will be of course entirely subjective, so I don't expect anyone to follow me with this one.

Tolkien's strength as an author lies in my opinion for the most part (see above) mainly in the complexity of his world. The fact, that his stories stretch out for entire eras involving an enormous cast of people is what makes them truely interesting. It is certainly not for their characters -there are well-written ones, but they appear mostly in the more novel-like books and not in the more tale-like books -which the Silmarillion more or less is. Nearly everyone there is pretty one-dimensional: They have kind of decided what is good or evil, they are brave or a coward and they work on one goal -that's it. The curious think is that, with all this gigantic war going on and numerous things happening technically at the time, it feels extremely linear and more or less (and I can't emphasize enough, that I'm talking about the dramatic way of storytelling, not the effort that was put into this world untill everything worked!!!) dull.
Now this sounds extremely harsh, but I'm sure everyone can agree to a certain extent to points like how there is basically no character motivation (because Melkor / Morgoth decided to be evil (because Lucipher) and so it was) or people / beings were just corrupted by evil without any specific motivation, Feanor's sons becoming absolute madmen about their oath never changing in what was literally centuries or elves and men just merrily sitting for 400 (!) freaking years doing nothing the entire time (apart from fending of two (?) assaults from Angband). Such sloppiness just stands out for me, it's a theme that again returns in the timeline of Dol Guldur when the White Counsil just does nothing -first for the ridiculous time of 960, then again for almost 400 years -I don't have to remind anyone, that Galadriel basically lives around the corner.
These (and believe me, A LOT MORE!) are all points which IMO don't really show Tolkien as a great writer -I literally think that in my circumstances, something just happens without a real cause-and-effect-relation.

Now, please note that this isn't meant as "hating" or not respecting his work. Personally, I see this basically as judging them fairly, because IMO his works are far from being perfect. His abilities to create worlds, fully functional with languages, cultures, bloodlines and their own pantheon, the known devices and so on, together with these three great stories, make him... well, a legend of literature.
This is not for all the mentioned things above, about which I could go on for a while. Again, why does this translate to me not wanting another Middle Earth movie?

It's because I basically think this sage-like stories are simply not coherent or able to be used for cinema! They offer basically nothing from a cinematic perspective and I just can't think about anythink worse then either a trilogy-long (since nowadays everything has to be a trilogy... Long live the mammon.) or something that just looses focus and becomes blurred because too much has to be added in order to work on a cinematic level.
Then I'd rather just enjoy the brilliant LotR-films, laugh about the Hobbit-movies from time to time when I just need complete non-sense delivered with the directors intention for me to care and apart from that "celebrate" Tolkien for what he has done -create a practically unparalleled complex universe. I'm simply not going to praise his works for something they aren't!


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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #20 am: 8. Mär 2016, 23:05 »
and for also all those reasons I don't want a Silmarilion movie at all. And that's why I've suggested a complete made up movie characters that would be interesting in a movie, but still fit perfectly the Middle Earth universe setup.
I absolutely don't want to see another Peter Jackson take on Middle Earth (it's becoming pretty much similar to the situation of Lucas with Star Wars).

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #21 am: 8. Mär 2016, 23:50 »
I personally would like a movie or television series about the War against Angmar (especially one that would do the story justice, after what Peter Jackson did to it in the Hobbit films). It could start at the end and focus on Arvedui and Aranarth, with appearances by Gandalf, Cirdan, (maybe even Elrond), Glorfindel and the Hobbits (there was a legend that Hobbits fought at the last battle of Fornost Erain during the War in the North), and it would have plenty of room to expound upon the characters of Aragorn's ancestors, showing Aranarth developing from a young and inexperienced prince to becoming the Chieftain of the Rangers and taking on the burden of leading his people after their homes were devastated.
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."


Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #22 am: 9. Mär 2016, 00:00 »
Ok, Melkor, that was intense  :D
And, no, I don't think any of us will really be mad at you just because you did what this forum just exists for: expressing opinions  :)

Nevertheless, albeit respecting your opinion, I reckon there is so much resentment towards the Hobbit trilogy from you, set aside its flaws and distorted aspects  :o
But, given that it's a personal opinion and that a sufficient (very sufficient) number of posts has dealt with this matter in this forum (even though, I don't know why, I guess they won't ever be enough), I don't want to discuss further about it, also because the topic involves a slightly different theme.

Let's talk about, instead, how you tried to dismantle my beloved Silmarillion  [ugly]
Since the thread doesn't address the pure and direct characteristics of the Silmarillion as the centre of discussion, I don't want to indulge very much in the issue, as we can always move to the Lore Corner or start a new thread about it, and I will thus try to answer briefly.

I honestly never thought that the Silmarillion is really so majestic for its intrinsic superb and excellent stylistic structure (actually, it was welcomed very coldly, if not negatively, by the critics at the time it was published).
Its majestic element lies essentially in its innovative and revolutionary typology, that of a Mythopoeia, resembling the ancient Greek cosmogony myths.
In this, the Silmarillion (seen in the holistic context of the Tolkien's production) is probably the sole, or the only successful 'experiment', mythopoeic book of the modern/contemporary era.
Its style is objectively sublime (almost 'disturbing' at times), I admit, but that is caused by the themes dealt with, resulting in a specific tone.
Like, for example (if you are acquainted with a bit of medieval Italian literature), the Paradise of Dante's Divina Commedia, where the matters involved make its tone far superior, higher and sublime than the one of the other two chapters (especially the fictional abominations of the Inferno).
The Silmarillion is exactly more metaphysical and superior compared to the other texts.

In very simple words, Mythopoeia is something different from novels, and absolutely more sublime than tales.
Basically, it's the creation of an entire mythical Universe (that's why cosmogony-like themes are very recurrent), with solid roots in fundamental aspects, characteristics and hierarchies that define the hierarchical and existential structure of the same Universe.
The most significant factor is that this mythopoeic creation gives birth to a world in which anything, from the smallest details to the most complicated aspects, is necessarily bound and loyally coherent to the foundations of this very Universe, ending up with the definition of that common law of the Tolkien's production I usually refer to.
Everything derived from this Mythopoeia will be deeply intertwined among itself, with order and admirable rational logic.

I think you should, then, look at the Silmarillion having in mind these aspects and this deep and pervasive coherence.
I'm sure you will find answers to your questions  :)
Picking some of them.

1. The Oath was not something so simple to break since it was sworn directly to Ilúvatar, with Manwë and Varda as witnesses.
2. The Noldor don't get immediately mad for no reasons; there are some subtle elements involved that don't refer solely to Fëanor or the Silmarils themselves.
And you, Melkor, are directly involved too in the discord among them  xD
3. Melkor is evil both by choice and by destiny.
It's a bit complicated to explain, but it's also a recurrent theme in Christianity.
Melkor chose to follow the path of the evil by his free will, but this is something Ilúvatar has always known/foreseen from the beginning with its Omniscience, and the Evil is a necessary part of the Universe just like the Good is, so that the Evil is metaphysically necessary.
Only Eru knows the final fate of all things.

Ok, it was not so brief  :D
I hope I was clear, though.

Regarding upcoming films, it is pretty taken for granted that a possible film about the Silmarillion doesn't necessarily have to follow PJ's style.
LOTR was taken as an example due to its revolutionary and majestic aspects that made it reach legend.
It would be similarly revolutionary coming out with something suitable even for the Silmarillion, and it's pretty clear that this said Majesty would certainly require the creation of the iconically monumental trilogies and sagas that we love so much (at least, the sole LOTR)  ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Mär 2016, 01:02 von DieWalküre »

Adamin

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #23 am: 9. Mär 2016, 09:30 »
I don't think that (from a dramatic point of view) Tolkien's work is that great, apart from (obviously) the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and to an extent the Children of Húrin.
I will gladly adress all your Points in the Lore Corner as soon as I have a proper Computer (right now I'm on travelling gear), because as far as I see it, everything you mention is actually explained in the Silmarillion. ;)

As you said it yourself: Tolkien was great at building worlds, and he very well knew that character motivation is also part of this world.
He was so good in fact, that he wrote the mythological legends of his world in a totally believable mythical style, as Val already said. Read the original Texts of Beowulf or the Siegfried Saga and you'll find stylistic similarities to the Silmarillion.
The "Problem" is that because of this the Silmarillion is actually hard to read, but just the same very much worth it.



On Topic:
Since there is no way that the Silmarillion stories will ever be adapted (in at least the next 80 years), I would actually like to see some "fanfiction" in movie form, so originally written tales. Why not get into some stories from earlier Third Age Stories?

Why not tell the adventures of Young Aragorn, wandering through Middle-earth as Thorongil, serving in the armies of Rohan and Gondor (where he met Theoden and Denethor by the way)?
That could be a great adventure movie, like Indiana Jones, or Pirates of the Caribbean. xD
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Mär 2016, 09:34 von Adamin »

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #24 am: 9. Mär 2016, 14:02 »
Zitat
I will gladly adress all your Points in the Lore Corner as soon as I have a proper Computer (right now I'm on travelling gear), because as far as I see it, everything you mention is actually explained in the Silmarillion. ;)
I am curious to read this. However to be perfectly honest, I doubt, that these logical problems can be explained. As I was saying: The points I already mentioned where just the ones I could remember quickly enough. ;)

@DieWalküre:
I am well aware of this mythical tone. This does however say nothing about Tolkien's qualities as a dramatic writer: As I was saying, I see the strengths and achievements of the Silmarillion and numerous other stories from Middle Earth. This does not make them particularly well written from a critics point of view who focusses on the suspense (like how it is built up, sudden reveals about a character,...).
I have read about two to three versions of the most classic Greek myths as well as a ton of German saga which enables me to say: Yes, the Silmarillion is written a lot like these stories. And again, those are really entertaining and actually surprising how intertwined they are, nevertheless their strength as well isn't (for the most part) a thrilling suspension which completely absorbs you. Again this may sound like an utterly trivial example, but if a dragon appears in such a saga, you can bet money the story's hero is going to kill it. This takes nothing away from the complexity of the story or how it is connected to the real world ("mythical" places which are explained via a legend), but it makes the suspension curve rather predictable. Again, character motivations are often pretty basic (young brave male hero who is brave by birth, does brave things and sometimes dies, often by treason -Hercules, Siegfried, even Gawain if I'm not mistaken share this characteristic with people like Earnur, Barahir or Fingon (easterlings ftw)).
Trust me, I know very well what I am talking about and again this doesn't improve Tolkien's qualities if we are only talking about the dramatic qualities of the story. OK, maybe I can further improve my point: Since I am coming to realize that these legends share the same characteristics, this makes Tolkien no bad writer since his stories are written exactly the way they need to be written. This still changes nothing about the dramatic quality of the stories themselves!

Zitat
1. The Oath was not something so simple to break since it was sworn directly to Ilúvatar, with Manwë and Varda as witnesses.
2. The Noldor don't get immediately mad for no reasons; there are some subtle elements involved that don't refer solely to Fëanor or the Silmarils themselves.
And you, Melkor, are directly involved too in the discord among them  xD
3. Melkor is evil both by choice and by destiny.
It's a bit complicated to explain, but it's also a recurrent theme in Christianity.
Melkor chose to follow the path of the evil by his free will, but this is something Ilúvatar has always known/foreseen from the beginning with its Omniscience, and the Evil is a necessary part of the Universe just like the Good is, so that the Evil is metaphysically necessary.

Well... I don't see anything really contradicting my statements. If my alter ego is destined to become evil there goes basically his entire character motivation. I realize it has to be this way and I don't really mind Morgoth as the villain, still in this case the implied religious element of Melkor vs. Manwe makes his character pretty predictable. Again: Villains like Saurons are often written extraordinarily well when it comes to their devices or the "subtle" criticism towards technology and progress, yet their motivations are extremely flat.
And yes, if I am swearing an oath in complete madness which leads to everyone hating me for doing so (especially the ones I did swear this oath to), after I than proceeded to do absolutely nothing for the enternity of 400 years in which I built up my kingdoms and enjoyed Middle Earth, if I'd than proceed to not only completely fail but to slaughter not 1 but two basically already destroyed realms, than enjoy the help of the guys I did swear this oath two saving me from destruction (all on the basis of someone I kind of hunted down...) and after that still dare to think that the oath was a good idea / Manwe, Varda and Co. even want me to continue fighting for it and continue laying waste to the ones guarding the Silmaril... Well, that's what I call determination! [uglybunti]



To conclude, I think it might be better to continue the debate about Tolkien's qualities as a writer somewhere else, in my original post I needed this thoughts to explain why I don't want another Middle Earth movie, however now we basically have a whole new topic.
Maybe you should move this debate from this post onward into the Lore Corner, DieWalküre (please not my last post, that was clearly connected to the original topic.)?


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: I indeed started the Divina Commedia / Göttliche Kömödie, yet stopped reading any further about one quarter into it. I just couldn't stand the cruelty of the basic setting which sounds rather surprising since it isn't any more cruel than say Hector's funeral ceremony done by Achilles (if you know what I'm talking about... xD), however to really explain my points it would require me to break the forum's rule and definitely the positive climate around here. ;)

Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #25 am: 9. Mär 2016, 15:47 »
Oh no, Melkor, don't tell me that you want to dismantle also the Divina Commedia, that is widely regarded as the greatest literary work of the Italian literature of all times, considered as a monumental summary of all the medieval knowledge of the past millennium  :D
Probably, you couldn't bear the abominations (as I wrote above) of the Inferno (Hell), the first chapter.
I can assure you that the situation in the Paradiso gets far holier (even though everything gets consequently so much intricate, metaphysically and theologically).
Anyway, I quite understand what you may have suffered, since many other Italian students have to face that fate given that all three chapters are mandatory in High School  xD



Ok, I will be more than happy to establish a new debate in the Lore Corner, or join another similar proposition in case one did the same thing  :)

And, Melkor, I agree with Adamin that your questions could be indeed answered if you followed carefully the rational foundations of the mythical narration.
I think your wrong (in my opinion) judgements are based on a too novel-oriented reasoning, while the nature of the Silmarillion responds to other rules.

Adamin

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #26 am: 9. Mär 2016, 21:34 »
Shame on both of you for not posting anything Topic-related. :P

I at least had one Paragraph concerning new Middle earth Movies!
Want another one?

What about the adventures of Elladan and Elrohir? The sons of Elrond seemed so super busy in the books, always being somewhere, helping the Dunedain. How about a movie concerning one of their jorneys into the wild North?

Fredius

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #27 am: 9. Mär 2016, 21:57 »
Well they had a part in the fan made Born of Hope movie.

Adamin

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #28 am: 9. Mär 2016, 22:32 »
Yeah, and I liked the movie (as well as the Hunt for Gollum), but they were just "Extras" there. I would like to see them as the main characters of a wild Adventure. ^^

Maybe a tale of how Elladan wanted to avenge his mother and thus lured his brother into the misty mountains on a Scout Mission, just to kill as many orcs as possible. Elrohir goes along at first, but realizes his Brothers pain just in time to save him from the fangs of a great beast of the mountain, and his own death.

Something like that. ^^

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #29 am: 10. Mär 2016, 23:29 »
Yeah, and I liked the movie (as well as the Hunt for Gollum), but they were just "Extras" there. I would like to see them as the main characters of a wild Adventure. ^^

Maybe a tale of how Elladan wanted to avenge his mother and thus lured his brother into the misty mountains on a Scout Mission, just to kill as many orcs as possible. Elrohir goes along at first, but realizes his Brothers pain just in time to save him from the fangs of a great beast of the mountain, and his own death.

Something like that. ^^
I actually liked these fan made movies too, even if they werent graphicly very good, but those people really did a good job trying to make them, it would be really wonderful to encourage other fans of creatins such short videos. If i had the opportunity, i would do something about the forging of the rings of power, having Celembribor, Annatar ( Sauron ), Galadriel , Elrond and Cirdan as main charachters, some dwarf lords will also add a nice touch. If only i could  :(
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #30 am: 11. Mär 2016, 00:33 »
Just to revive the flame of hope for an unlikely Silmarillion trilogy or sage, I want to share with you this great fan made trailer  :)

The initial words you can hear at the beginning are Fëanor's, referring also to the Valar.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LiYDlwg5xMc

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #31 am: 11. Mär 2016, 08:43 »
A very good combination of Narnia 3, clash of the titans, King Arthur ... I really like it  :), i do wish beyond hope to see such movie as soon as possible  :(
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Fine

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #32 am: 11. Mär 2016, 08:44 »
That's a really great trailer! Nice find :)

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #33 am: 13. Mär 2016, 16:05 »
This is very nice, a Saga following these major events would be extremly great and well welcomed by all the fans.
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozj8u7CyP3I
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJt3wu1amk0
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Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #34 am: 13. Mär 2016, 16:16 »
I know those videos.
The author has a great style in explaining things and displaying graphical features  :)

aminetude

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #35 am: 13. Mär 2016, 16:37 »
I know those videos.
The author has a great style in explaining things and displaying graphical features  :)
Yes that's very true, i am still now watching all his 29 videos about middle earth, i really like how he explains them, very simple but beautiful at the same time.
There is something i dont understand, Melkor brought Ungoliant to help him destroy the two trees, shouldn't the valar had sensed its presence before it reached the trees ?
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #36 am: 13. Mär 2016, 18:28 »
If we really wanted to be very diligent (as I'm sure we are), we should deal with the question you made in the Lore Corner  :P
But, I think I can give you just a direct answer here, as long as it doesn't widen itself in a broader discussion  ;)

As far as I know, the Valar sensed Ungoliant, but only when she entered directly the Blessed Realm (beyond the Pelóri).
The Valar, the Maiar and the majority of all the Elves (Fëanor included), furthermore, were celebrating a festivity at the top of Taniquetil, in the Halls of Manwë and Varda.

They had not sensed Ungoliant before due to the fact that she had always been hiding herself in the very Aman (obviously, out of the Pelóri like Eldamar and Araman), in the dark and dangerous shores of Avathar (that the Light of Valinor didn't reach).
When she revealed herself to attack the Two Trees, the Lords of the West were definitely taken by surprise, and the Darkness of Ungoliant, described by Tolkien as the nemesis of Light itself rather than the absence of it (a sort of 'Dark Light', like what antimatter is compared to matter), had also the incredible power to temporarily darken everyone's sight (even Manwë's and Varda's) and to hide everyone imbued with it (Ungoliant and Melkor).

Yes, Ungoliant is really a terrible Maia  [ugly]
After she killed and absorbed the vital force of the Two Trees, she becomes titanic and it's inferred in the text that she briefly became more powerful than Melkor and the Valar themselves.
In fact, she was able to defeat the Royal Guard of the Valar and momentarily block the movements of Oromë and Tulkas!

lord_ellessar

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #37 am: 15. Mär 2016, 11:33 »
i think that the middle earth world is big enough to make series of movies like the marvels :) it could be awesome to see, i dont know the fall of Arnor or the conquest of Gondor... :)
Folks of middle earth




Walküre

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #38 am: 22. Mär 2016, 23:45 »
And, it seems that someone else had my same idea of a 5-chapter saga for the Silmarillion  :D

Even though, I have to say, the titles of the chapters are not what I had in mind.
Great attempt anyway!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT-1MjThHEk

Shadowxgate

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #39 am: 31. Dez 2016, 02:57 »
Might be the best option to make a Silmarillion movie would be to divide it into the most important parts (beren and luthien, children of Hurin, the fall of gondolin) and make them all into a series of multiple movies. beren and luthien can be divided in the taking of the silmaril and in a second movie where it focuses more on the hatred between dwarves and elves, children of hurin could be divided into the phase where turin is in menegroth over to the point where he becomes an out law, etc you get the picture

not sure if that would be any good but its an idea, to make multiple movies rather than one (also peter jackson would be ok with trilogies so maybe)

Mateiyu

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #40 am: 11. Jan 2017, 16:25 »
Hi all !

I just thought (well, not really "just", I've been thinking about it for a time ^^) of something.
I've always really loved all the "Unfinished Tales",and stories or details from the "Lord of the Rings" Appendices, and now (given how much is invested by broadcasters into shows such as "Game of Thrones" to only name one) I wonder if a TV show about one or several of those "side-events" wouldn't be a good idea...

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Re: Upcoming Middle Earth film? – Possible theorised scripts
« Antwort #41 am: 7. Jul 2017, 00:24 »
Gentle attendees of this topic, do you remember when we talked about a possible trilogy for the Silmarillion to be brought on the big screen? Well, as a very fortunate coincidence, I have just found this interesting article, whose author has too envisaged a three-chapter structure: the first film will be the prologue and main presentation of the whole War of the Jewels, the second is to deal with the tale of our Beren and Lúthien (thus introducing the evergreen Sauron as villain) and the final part is supposed to represent things going down and reaching the lowest point, until the War of Wrath and the arrival of Eärendil. Here you may browse the article.

The quite appalling (in a good sense) thing is that we both have had pretty much the same ideas (a very similar scheme according to which the project ought to be ordered). Interesting...