Orc overseers

[Azog The Defiler]

Orc overseers
Heres an idea for the overseers, which cause many problems, being too difficult to use to be effective. Plus i dont think that Mordor would breed a special kind of fat orc to whip all their troops.

They would still be unlocked by saurons influence and require orc barracks level3.
But instead of recruiting them and then pairing them up, they are instead an upgrade like banner carriers.
This way all the different troops can have a different overseer.

Mordor overseer: the fat orc
Morgul overseer: Morgiz, the orc with a head on his head in rotk, with the scythe
Guldur overseer: Azogs general, the orc with the centurion helmet and halbeard/shortspear

[Gnomi]

One thing that sometimes bothers me with Mordor is that on some maps you cant get your Morg and DG orcs, cause there arent any outposts, and on many maps you get them really late or not at all.

Wrong. Every map has outposts. If not, then it's a bug, but as far as I remember every map has one. (most have multiple outposts)

It would be nice if there was something to give you your cooler troops a little earlier, or a way that you could use them in all maps.

You mean something like Cirith Ungol Orcs from the settlements or Evil Men from the spellbook?

The units from the outpost buildings won't appear in the normal fortress. They will stay there.

[hoho96]

I remember back in the old ages (a couple of years ago) suggesting to Edain the complete opposite to this, i.e. how not to have all kinds of orcs from the main base like it was in 3.8 

Anyway, besides that it doesn't make much sense in game, what would happen  to the outposts? if Mordor (which is already OP, for real) can get everything from its base, then what's the point of expanding and skirmishing the enemy around outposts and settlements (besides denying them to the enemy)? ALL factions have something on the outposts that they can not get any other way. that's the whole point of creating those points of interest.

[Hamanathnath]

In terms of balancing, I think that this is not a good idea because of how Mordor's orcs are free.  All you would have to do is hold off the enemy with your free units until you can get the upgraded troops, and they you would be able to spam the VERY strong units to no end.  Having them as outposts makes the player have to expand in order to get their better units, because if you don't have good control of the area around where you want Minas Morgul/Dul Guldur, you have a chance of losing it, costing you ALOT.

ALL factions have something on the outposts that they can not get any other way.

(Looks at Rohan and hopes they get a new outpost)

[Azog The Defiler]

Im pretty sure that i have played maps without outposts, but that was a long time ago, i just stopped playing those maps. But for example Mount Gundabad is or was one of them.
But yes i usually go for maps with multiple ones!:D

And yes Gnomi, something like that indeed!:D

Hoho, i see your point and i too was against the old system. But i usually try to go for the DG or Morg orcs as early as possible and when ive gotten them the game is usually won or the other scenario is that i lose so hard i dont even get to build either fortress. So usually the only troops i get to use are normal orcs so i whish there was a way to use the DG and Morg orcs more.
The other factions have their "cool" troops recruited directly from the base and can enjoy using them all game long. While i rarely get to use the "cool" units of Mordor.
And as i said, sometimes i stall the game on purpose to get to use them, but that gets pretty boring:/

[Tirano]

i think it will be nice that Minas morgul and Dol guldur have powers
Minas morgul: passive: all enemy in a radius get less defences
active: increase the speed of recruitment (a light like the film will come out of the fortress)
Dol guldur: passive: a aura of unsighted that hide allies
active: get a range of visibility for some time (or something like the movie that withers the forest and weakens the enemies)

[Morgul Orc]

I like your idea, but I think it needs a little bit of a tweak.

I also think that it doesn't make sense that you can have both morgul orcs and dol guldur orcs in the same battle field. I also think that it would be nice to be similar to the dwarves where you can choose Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur.

Here's how the factions will work:


Minas Morgul:

Khamul will cost extra.

You will recruit Minas morgul orcs from an orc barraks inside the base (Morgul swordsmen are not free).

You will recruit Mountain trolls and Drummer Trolls from the Troll cage.

You will recruit Catapults and Battering Rams from the Great siege works.

You can recruit cheap mordor orcs from orc camp in the settlement, they are the vanilla weak orcs.

Instead of the Minas Morgul fortress in the outpost, there will be an outpost like the morgul tower which effects the entire map, for every morgul tower the enemy is weakend 5% or 10%. You can't build a lot since there isn't many outposts plus it's expensive.

And the other Outpost will be Cirith Ungul outpost instead of the normal barraks.
You can also recruit the Cirith Ungul heroes from there.

That's it for Minas Morgul.


Dol Guldur:

Witchking will cost extra

You will recruit Dol Guldur orcs from the an orc barraks inside the base (Dol Guldur swordsmen will not be free).

You will recruit Dol Guldur trolls from a Troll cage a long with These trolls which are bigger and more powerful http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/Violence-troll-controlled-by-hooks-in-eye-sockets-3-as-Bofur-mounts-him.jpg

I am not sure about siege... maybe catapult trolls? I think they're with the goblins. or maybe a mountain giant.

You can recruit Gundabad orcs from orc tents in the settlement, they are weaker than Dol Guldur orcs.


The outpost will be similar to minas morgul tower but, instead of weakening defense of enemies, it increases the damage of orcs by 5%. And for the other outpost as The Defiler metioned, you can recruit warg riders, castellians and spiders.

That's it for Dol Guldur.


What do you think of that? 

[Azog The Defiler]

Tirano, i definetly like the powers idea!

Morgul orc, Intresting idea of the Morgul tower, but i feel like it would be better with it on a settlment maybe? If all it does is weaken enemies, the outposts are often very important for your development in game so if all it does is weaken enemies i feel a settlment would do fine:)

And for the Minas Morgul part, i feel like the base should be settled around Mordor, since its the core of Sauron at this part and time of middle earth, and its quite fitting to have Minas Morgul on outposts with the Witch King, since it was exactly like this in the movie and then Cirith Ungol on settlements since it didnt play that big a part of the faction.

But Dol Guldur on the other hand, i feel should be settled around Dol Guldur because it was a stronghold far away from Mordor and at this time, Sauron himself dwelled there.
I do like the connection with Gundabad!
Maybe like you said on settlements there could be a Gundabad orc tent, which can recruit Gundabad hunters, that come to aid you, but these are not the fierce Gundabad warrior orcs that can be seen in the MM faction, but like i said hunters.

Edain does not like the amputee trolls, so they wont be implemented. And im not really a fan either..

But yes it would also here be nice with a building to give bonus damage for your orcs like you said! And both Nazguls should be available at ahigher cost.

Do you agree on any of that?

[Kili]

I honestly would have a big problem with splitting Mordor into two faction although i understand the intention behind it. You want to create Mordor from two different time periods, in which case the one (Dol Guldur) couldn't be considered as "Mordor".

So i would focus on the visual rework only and not really try to do total conversion of the faction.

[Morgul Orc]

As I mentioned, the idea of the Morgul tower to be an outpost is because it effects the WHOLE map and not just the units near it. If lets just say we made it in the settlements and every settlement weakens the defense of of enemy units by 5 or 10 percent than that would be OP, UNLESS you have limits like you can have up to 3 Morgul towers as settlments. And the other problem if it was a settlment is that you will have many options for settlements, Cirith Ungul barraks, Morgul tower, cheap orc barraks and 2 resource buildings (Slaughter house and Orc farm). Not to mention that you won't have any special Outpost building since Cirith Ungul and Morgul towers will be in the settlements. I wanted Cirith Ungul to be in the Outpost since they are the strongest and with the change in Mordor that you can now have Morgul orcs from the start, it balances it this say so you won't have many strong units from the start. And don't forget that the Morgul tower will add to other weaken abilities like the nazgul's passive ability and since it effects the whole map, it should be hard to build one, let alone many.

As for Dol Guldur. I agree that the amputee Troll is kind of ridiculas and hard to make but you have to have a siege unit other than the battle trolls. Mountain giants are an option since Troll catapults are goblin exclusive.

I am trying to think about the gundabad orcs. I think we can rather make the settlement recruit only spiders. And the special outpost building can be Gundabad base and from there you can recruit, Warg riders, Orc pike, Orc archers and Orc swordsmen. And instead of castellians you will have orc berserkers. Bolg will be recruited from there. The other Outpost will bill be a Dol Guldur building that will increase damage of orcs by maybe 5 or 10 percent, it also effects the whole map.

The idea of the change is that the main Dol Guldur army is Sauron's Dol Guldur orcs and not Gundabad. Gundabad hunters can be Gundabad orcs but without the armor upgrade.

So now both Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur have 2 special Outposts that are similar to each other. And also have a balanced number of settlement buildings.

Minas Morgul settlments:

Orc farm

Slaughter house

Orc tent


Dol Guldur settlements:

Spider nest

Slaughter house

Orc farm


And btw Morgul riders can now be recruited from the main base settlement. Same goes with the castellians they can now be recruited from the main base.

One of the things I dislike and I think should be removed imo is the Orc whipper, I think he's unnecessary and is annoying to combine him every time with other orcs.
We can have a special upgrade called orc discipline without him being in the battalion.
   

[Morgul Orc]

And I think now we should think about how the necromancer would effect the buildings of both sub factions.

I think the current powers  need not a big change but maybe replace summon shelob with summon goblins from Goblin town, shelob can be only summoned through the Cirith ungul Outpost.

[Azog The Defiler]

As much as a visual rework of the faction would be awesome, i still feel like Mordor could be splitted into 2.
Since Dol Guldur now has enough material and purpose to become an own faction now that the hobbit movie came out with this much material.
And often the faction is a little untidy and does not support a Dol Guldur army.

But i dont think that there should be a Gundabad outpost, that would not be very fitting. My point is just that it needs a cheap spam factor from outposts, and since the small connection with Gundabad there could be a Gundabad tent. But maybe a more fitting idea is orc cave, and it would be orcs from different regions of the north, gundabad swordsmen, mount gram pikes, moria archer, that all vary in looks.

and yes spiders should definetly be settlments. But the wargriders would not be Gundabad, its dol Guldur orcs riding the wargs of the north like seen here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SGengnqNIM  at 3:12

And maybe a better idea for the passive of buildings would be the powers tirano talked about, and they would work from the main base?

ANd the orc whipper i dislike too, my idea for that is that the darkness power is a passive that gives your troops formation

[Morgul Orc]

I kinda disagree with Gundabad being a settlement, they are a big part of Dol Guldur, that's why I suggested a big outpost fortress. And besides, there will be too much settlment options for Dol Guldur.

As for the towers, hmmm... I don't know maybe the necromancer can unlock that upgrade since the nazgul upgrade is now a ring power. But the thing is the effect of the towers is OP if it is easily acquired. And the other thing if it's from the fortress then it can only have one effect either 5 or 10 percent. And lets not forget that if Gundabad orcs come from settlement building and Dol Guldur tower power was from the main base, then they wouldn't have a unique Outpost building, same goes with
Minas Morgul if Cirith Ungul building was in the settlement and the Morgul tower power came from the main base.

And the warg riders are both seen with Gundabad and Dol Guldur as seen in the first Hobbit movie.

And I want to add something regarding these two subfactions. Would Morgul orcs be the same regarding being more defensive and Dol Guldur orcs being offensive? Because in my opinion I rather use Morgul orcs than Dol Guldur orcs since they die fast and not worth it most of the time. do you think that should be changed? Maybe to balance that, the towers of both subfactions can increase their weakness, Morgul orcs will get an increase in damage and the Dol Guldur orcs will get an increase in defence.

I'd like to add something regarding the Trolls of both factions, I think the Morgul Trolls should be strong in attack but weak in defence, the Guldur Trolls should be more defensive than attackers.

[Fredius]

I kinda disagree with Gundabad being a settlement, they are a big part of Dol Guldur, that's why I suggested a big outpost fortress.

They are not, Edain is following the lore of the books, not the movies. In the lore Gundabad and Dol Guldur had no connection at all.

I really agree with Arador; why not just give the Dol Guldur orcs just a visual rework. Also Azog you had a great idea about the Mordor Trolls in one of the other threads, that would make them unique and fun to play, and also give us the chance to have the armor from the Battle of the Five Armies without sacrificing the armor from the Return of the King. What happened to that proposal?

[Morgul Orc]

You have to explain what do you exactly mean by "visual rework"?

It doesn't make any sense having both Dol Guldur orcs and Morgul orcs at the same time.

I would rather split Mordor into two and have 2 subfactions which makes sense, than having units like Gundabad orcs with the goblins. The goblins can have their entire faction but I don't like the idea of having Azog and Gundabad orcs with them. They can have cave trolls, ogres, catapult troll and goblin units which is enough imo.