Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey improvements

[DrHouse93]

Greetings, companions of the Edain!

Today, I'd like to show you some ideas I've got to improve two heroes that concern me, these being Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey. What I'd like to suggest are some concepts regarding those two heroes, which can be summarized with some peculiar skills. Going into details:

Aragorn concept v1.2

Aragorn, even if a lone warrior, is an inspiring figure for all those fighting with him, who are proud to fight with him. Other than that, he's also the prophesied king of Gondor and Arnor, returned after centuries of stewards ruling the reign. However, right now Aragorn is just a pure Hero Killer, which becomes a not so good unit supporter on later levels and also losing some peculiar hero killing skills. I think that, given his price, lore, courage and impressive fighting skills, he should have a hero/unit supporter from the start, although very slightly at the beginning, of course, other than his hero killer role. So, this is my new idea for Aragorn:

Strider

As Strider, Aragorn will keep his main skills intact, because they're more than appropriate, but he will also have a passive hidden leadership (similar to the one of Gandalf the Challenge Master, which heals nearby units, even if it doesn't have a palantir slot) which is the following:

Chieftain of the Dunedain - Strider is a powerful lone warrior, other than the leader of the Dunedain of the North. His figure inspires other heroes. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +15% damage. Hobbits and non-combatant units - such as Corrupted Theoden - will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +15% armor. Passive skill
This ability represents Aragorn's inspiring figure even if he's still a lone warrior who hasn't accepted his fate yet. Of course, the buff should be low for balancing reasons

Aragorn

When he receives Anduril and leaves the path of the Ranger, Aragorn receives an improved leadership:

Mighty warrior - Aragorn is powerful warrior, who also wields Anduril, the sword forged by the pieces of Narsil. His figure inspires other heroes and standard units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +25% damage. Hobbits, basic units and non-combatant units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +25% armor. Passive skill
As you can see, the leadership is now more powerful, and also affects basic units like Gondor Soldiers, or Rohan Peasants. This is to show the trust the Rohirrim have gained in him after the brave resistance he did in the Battle of the Hornburg

Aragorn the Heir

When he becomes Aragorn the Heir, he also gains the ability to mount on Brego, his powerful warhorse from Rohan (another sign of the trust and friendship of the Rohirrim). However, he loses an important hero killing skill, which is his Knife Throw, which I think is more useful for killing heroes than chasing them while riding on enemy troops, and I really can't see Aragorn at level 7 used as a scout thanks to his newly gained riding ability. To compensate that, his Elendil skill will be improved and will now weaken enemy heroes' damage by 15% (Eowyn at level 10 has a similar ability, while Celeborn's damage grows the more heroes are around him, so the ability is not OP). Aragorn the Heir's new skills will therefore be the following:

On foot
- Anduril
- Athelas
- Elendil
- Brego
- The Heir of Isildur: Aragorn has finally accepted his fate as the prophesied King of both Gondor and Arnor and the only hope for Men, leading them to whatever end. His figure inspires other heroes and units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +33% damage. Hobbits, non-combatant and all other units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +33% armor. Passive skill

On Brego
- Decapitation: Aragorn wields Anduril, the flame of the West, forged by the pieces of Narsil, which permanently grants him +60% damage and +30% armor. Passive effect - I don't remember if this is the default passive effect of Anduril. Anyway, this one remains unchanged - The ability can also be casted on enemy heroes and single units. The former ones will be heavily damaged, while single units (such as Berserkers or Beornings) will be instantly killed

This ability is taken from the extended scene at the Black Gate, where Aragorn decapitates the Mouth of Sauron, and it's also a way to not leave Aragorn vulnerable to enemy heroes when he's mounted on Brego (fighting with a sword is harder while riding an horse, that's why I think his hero killing skills should be limited to when he's on foot). Thanks to ziging for the suggestion
- Athelas
- Final Stand: Aragorn's courage inspires the hearts of the men following him, even if he's leading them to death. He talks to them, biding them to do the final stand against the enemy.

All allied units in a wide radius will only receive 10% of the normal damage for 20 seconds and become fearless. For the duration of the skill, Aragorn and all allied heroes in his proximity will become invulnerable. This ability can't be casted if Aragorn is fighting. When the ability is casted, all nearby units and enemies as well will stop fighting to hear Aragorn's words. The effects of the ability will be applied at the end of the speech
This ability represents Aragorn's inspiring figure at his peak: when the Army of the West is surrounded by the forces of Mordor at the Black Gate, and he's able to make his men charge the enemy despite it was basically a suicide. The button images for the ability could be one of the following:



- Unmount Brego
- The Heir of Isildur

While Final Stand is active, the skills Anduril, Decapitation, Athelas and the promotion to King Elessar are disabled, while his Elendil skill is replaced by the following:
Charge - Aragorn and all nearby units under the effect of the Final Stand will charge at the enemy, dealing increased trample damage. Left click on the enemy units
Of course, this has his drawbacks: trample damage means that the units charging will get recoil damage (just like cavalry). Furthermore, since not being cavalry, the trampling will end to just the first row of enemy units
This is the button for the charge ability:

And this is the sound effect:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/58y4xw52soqrknz/AragornFinalCharge_Sound.wav?dl=0

After the effects of Final Stand are over, Aragorn's skills will have to reload as if they've been just used. This will give the player an hard choice: does he need a powerful but temporary boost for his army, but having to renounce to Aragorn's skills until they're reloaded, or does he need Aragorn at his full potential?

King Elessar - On foot

- Anduril
- Athelas
- Elendil/Charge
- Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Aragorn has finally become the King of Gondor and Arnor. Heroes will now cost 15% less to recruit or revive. His figure inspires other heroes and units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +33% damage. Hobbits, non-combatant and all other units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +33% armor. Also, units from the fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth can be recruited from the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill
The final leadership of Aragorn, which is finally visible in the palantir, fully shows Aragorn's newly gained status and importance for Men

King Elessar - On Brego

- Decapitation
- Athelas
- Final Stand
- Unmount Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom

All in all, I think this new concept of Aragorn would give the player a small buff (I know that Gondor has already a lot of leadership, but let's be honest: the only one who grants an armor bonus is Boromir, which is not enough for, e.g., the Soldiers of Dol Amroth or other units, since most of the times they die nonetheless. Atleast, this happened to me quite many times) while being more lore-wise and by not distorting too much Aragorn's role

Gandalf the Grey concept v1.1

Concerning Gandalf the Grey, I think he's underused, too, mainly because, given his price and skillset being exactly the same as for Gandalf the White, most players just buy the 2pp spellbook power as soon as possible to immediately turn him to Gandalf the White. Therefore, a good way to use both of its forms, without forcing the player to purchase the spellbook power, is to use a mechanic similar to the one present in the Hero Submod in the Edain 3.81.

Therefore, Gandalf the Grey will cost 2200 resources, and will have the following abilities:

- Wizard Blast
- Lightning Sword
- Mount
- You Shall not Pass: Gandalf emits a powerful shock wave, which slightly damages and stun nearby units and also inflicts moderate damage to nearby buildings
- Battle of the Maiar: Gandalf faces his final test: he fights a Balrog of Morgoth. This Balrog may be summoned only if there are no nearby enemies, and he will attack Gandalf. He has to defeat him (his skills will reload faster). ALL Nearby units will be terrified by the clash and will not interfere. The Balrog can also be attacked by Gandalf, only. Should he be able to defeat him, he will die nonetheless for the effort and for the wounds, but after two minutes he will return to the closest citadel as Gandalf the White

This represents, to me, a more lore-wise way to show Gandalf's prowess and his return as the White, which is the most powerful rank an Istari may achieve. Also, since the ability can be cast in any moment, it gives the player a more challenging way to upgrade Gandalf: if he summons the Balrog while on lower levels, there's the risk he's not able to defeat him, therefore vanquishing his efforts and having to revive him as Gandalf the Grey (of course, the Balrog will disappear if Gandalf isn't able to defeat him). If he summons the Balrog while on higher levels, he will likely defeat him and get the free upgrade, but the enemy will have gained more time

What do you think about it?

[VectorMaximus]

I absolutely agree that King Elessar's leadership needs to be reworked, and I like the way that you suggested it. I think the idea of the charge could be a good idea, but I'm still kinda iffy on it.

However, I feel that Gandalf's abilities are iconic and should remain. In addition, people would still choose to get Gandalf the White as soon as possible, in case they got the ring (at least I would; does anyone want Corrupted Gandalf over Gandalf the Challenge Master?). So I don't believe there is any reason to create a different set of abilities for Gandalf the Grey vs Gandalf the White.

I don't know if making Gandalf need to die is a good idea though. It feels like an extra arduous step, that while lore accurate, just isn't worth it. Would Gandalf be free for the revive, or instantly revive, or what?

[Saeros]

I cannot express any opinion concerning Aragorn because I think that the balance of the game will change, and he will become way to powerful, although I like your suggestion in general.
Concerning Gandalf the Grey I totally agree with you, since this was something that was troubling me too, although I would like to see his moveset change and become exactly as the dwarven Gandalf (the Lightning Bolt should be changed with the Pine Cones and the Light of the Istari with the Dragon Firework, just as his last move to become as you proposed)
The price reduction, if Gandlaf is to be nerfed then it is obviously logical to happen, but the death and resurrection thing is not very functional.
To turn him to Gandalf the White in order to have some more depth and lore- friendly use I could think of turning him into lvl 8 thus his ultimate move (as Gandlaf the Grey) is unlocked and then after using it for the first time he will turn to Gandalf the White (assuming that the player has purchased the respective Power)

[DrHouse93]

Concerning Aragorn, I think his leadership is one of the most useless (again, not talking about the hero reduction cost), simply because it's not so likely to fight on a nearby statue. And you're right, the balance would change, but I don't think it would become too overpowered, since overpowered leaderships are already present (someone said Nazgul? Or the Witch-king?)
As an example, to balance Aragorn's leadership, Faramir's one could be nerfed, even if I love it, but I think Aragorn should definitely have a more important role when he becomes the Heir and the King of Gondor, other than hero killing

As for Gandalf, the idea of having him die was a way to make Gandalf the White available not so soon (which also included turning him more powerful), but I must say I like Saeros' idea that, when casting his "You shall not pass!" skill once you have purchased the spellbook power, it will turn Gandalf the Grey to White
Also, Vector, you're right about the Ring matter (Gandalf the Challenge Master is definitely superior than the Corrupted), but keep in mind that Gondor has another Ringhero, and by making Gandalf the White less available will give the player an harder choice on who to give the Ring, once he acquires it

[radagasti01]

I agree with your ideas about gandalf, cause follow the role too.
But i don't agree so much about Aragorn. I think Gondor just have 2 really good leadership with Faramir and Boromir, 3 good bonus is a lot.
If you nerf or change Boromir or Faramir abilities that thing of Aragorn is ok.
Like change Boromir like a pure tank and not unit supporter.

[Linhir]

Remember also about my old idea of carriage instead of shadowfax.
This is "must implement" thing.

[Melkor Bauglir]

I strongly advise against giving King Elessar a real leadership. Gameplaywise he doesn't need one, also it is a conceptual nightmare to grant absolutely central abilities that late: The defining abilities should always be reached rather quickly, because they are the reason for you to buy the hero in the first place. Otherwise you get a problem the old Ered Luin dwarves had: They had zero leadership spells untill Thorin reached level 10 (which is still the case if I'm not mistaken, yet that might be changed) while the other realms had a leadership (spell) directly at level 1 of their respective Dain which was stupid. However at level 10 Thorin gave +75% damage to all nearby units, making him probably the strongest support in the entire game aka god. This creates a horrible design flaw where faction XY basically has to be designed to be strong enough without spell Z (because it's completely unreliable coming that late in the game), yet the faction gets essentially a ridiculous buff upon getting this spell.

Therefore a little leadership like now doesn't blur Aragorn's role, gives a nice nod towards his status as King of Men and requires no rebalancing of Gondor. I guess, nothing speaks against a minor improvement, but he shouldn't directly buff any nearby troops -maybe reinclude his "making Gondor only united kingdom again"-theme, granting access to the fiefdoms (and DA) via the regular barracks, stables and archery ranges.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Walküre]

Regarding Gandalf, fair arguments have been raised about Gandalf the Grey and his status and overall role in the faction, taking account of the possibility that the player has to turn him into Gandalf the White.
A significant reminder, though, is necessary to be made.

It's quite out of question that Gandalf the Grey's powers could ever be changed.
There are various statements of the Edain Team throughout the forum that clearly reaffirm this fact/boundary, and some threads have been consequently closed for this exact reason.
Gandalf the Grey's abilities are too much iconic (a fundamental memory of the very BFME1) to be ever modified; along with that, Gandalf in the Dwarven factions has to be necessarily different from his counterpart in Gondor as one follows the Hobbit timeline and the other the War of the Ring timeline.
I don't know if the Edain Team is willing to change idea in the future, but this has been the common praxis so far.

I agree though that the 'resurrection motive' that characterises Gandalf the White should be more prominent in the game (if we manage to come out with some suitable proposals).
Gandalf the Grey dying in order to be resurrected as Gandalf the White doesn't personally displease me so much.

[Elite KryPtik]

I really like the idea around Aragorn, and give it my support for what its worth.

I was, however, about to make my own thread with a similar but different idea, I will post it here instead.

So, I think that Aragorn's "Demand of the King" does not fit in with his role as a hero killer AT ALL. You already have a full blown Army of the Dead summon with 10 power points, and I would much prefer to not have a redundant ability that does pretty much the same thing for Aragorn. So this therefore is my idea proposal to completely REPLACE Demand of the King.

Ability Name: Either "Hour of Wolves" or "For Frodo"
Description: "The strength of Aragorn's will can inspire men to perform incredible feats for the love of their King, and march into certain death if need be. All nearby units gain complete fear resistance, +50% armor and damage, and -50% movement speed for 2 minutes, while all nearby heroes gain +25% armor and damage for 2 minutes" Please note, this is an ACTIVE ability, not a passive leadership.
Sound: Aragorn's ENTIRE speech at the Black Gate, beginning with "Stand Your Ground!" and ending with either "I bid you STAND! Men of the West!" or "For Frodo"

Now, my thinking behind this is that Gondor is an extremely defensive faction. This ability would play further into that strength, making your units incredibly resilient but slowing them down a lot too. This would represent the final stand of the Men of the West at the Black Gate, and could be used to excellent effect while defending a castle, but perhaps not so much while attacking an enemy. Now, since this ability gives fear resistance, the passive leadership he has at level 10 would have to have the fear resistance removed so that it wouldn't be a redundant ability.

For a final note, PLEASE folks, keep in mind that most factions in the game have some means of removing leaderships: Mordor has Nazgul, Dwarves have Ravens, Isengard has Crebain and Grima, and Rohan has Eomers Monument ability. The only opposing factions who cannot debuff enemies is Lorien and Gondor, and since Gondor mirror matches are so rare they don't really matter. Lorien doesn't need to debuff as they can just stand back and shoot you with arrows while your units are super slow, or use Galadriels level 10 power to make all units INVULNERABLE (yeah, because that Isn't OP at all ) So this would NOT be overpowered, it would just have to be timed well when your enemy has used up their debuffing abilities, or the enemy would have to play well to counter it. I think this would make a lot more sense in terms of what he does in the Film as well as the Lore of Aragorn in general, being such a great leader of men. I really think that Demand of the King is a redundant ability that should be replaced.

[ziqing]

Similar proposals concerning roles of Aragorn have been brought about several times by different people during the past year, so far with no real progress. I hope this time it will bring some well-deserved attention.

[Adrigabbro]

To be fair, I'm more concerned about Gandalf than Aragorn. While the latter is present in most MP games and accepted as one of the strongest heroes in the game, the former has yet to be seen. Plus, playing with him is more frustrating than anything else: you get one wizard blast before retreating immediately in the middle of your troops, putting him on defensive stance and waiting for the cooldown. I think Gandalf needs more attention than Aragorn right now.

[Hamanathnath]

Concerning Aragorn, I do agree Demand of the King does not fit his Hero Role, BUT it does fit his Character Role, so I don't agree with Elite KryPtik that it should be replaced.  However, I think that Aragorn should get a "Final Stand" sort of Ability, so here is my proposal.

I think that Demand of the King should be a One Use Only Ability.  After its cooldown timer is over, it will be replaced with an Ability similar to the one Elite KryPtik suggested.  I think this is the best way to add an ability like this is because not only does it allow Aragorn to have both Abilities, but it also makes sense because once the oaths of the Oathbreakers are fulfilled, I'm pretty sure lore-wise Aragorn can't just keep summoning them to protect him.  And Demand of the King can be made a little stronger if needed, considering it can only be used once.

But I agree with Adrigabbro.  Aragorn is already one of most useful heroes in the game.  I would say that Gandalf does need more attention right now, but I'll be honest, I can't really think of something that will fix the problem with Gandalf.  His High Risk/High Reward play style was something I would say he always had, so maybe it really isn't problem.   

[ziqing]

I basically agree with your concern about Aragorn's role and that now his role in game doesn't represent his experience in lore well. Edain team designed him to be a pure hero killer with almost the best 1 vs 1 ability among heroes of all factions, I assume that's why they refuse to give him any useful leadership for the previous version. I have proposed the idea a long time ago that he could gradually change his role through his path from ranger to king, focusing on hero killing for early stage(ranger and rohan form)and on leadership and tank for late stage(heir and king). So the player will think more and choose whether to let him go to the next stage(since he will lose his hero killer aspect) in one game, depending on the situation.

Previous thread concerning this:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31281.0.html

[DrHouse93]

So, after having read all your opinions, I'd like to improve my previous concept^^

Aragorn

When Aragorn becomes the Heir and the King of Gondor, he will have a dual role. While on foot, he will remain the hero killer. While on Brego, he will become unit and hero supporter. His skills will therefore be the following ones:

Aragorn the Heir - On foot
- Anduril: same as default
- Athelas: same as default
- Knife Throw: same as default
- Brego

Aragorn the Heir - On Brego
- Glory of the Dunadan: Aragorn is the prophesied returned Heir and King of Gondor. Wielding Anduril, the Flame of the West, forged by the pieces of Narsil, combined with his impressive fighting skills, make him able to face every situation with courage, also inspiring the men following him. Aragorn permanently receives +30% armor, while units and heroes around him receive +15% damage and experience. Passive ability

This ability is meant to show Aragorn's fighting skills and the capability to inspire others due to his backstory and well-known sword, as well as not leaving him vulnerable to enemy heroes
- Athelas
- Final Stand: Aragorn's courage is able to inspire the hearts of the men following him, even if he's leading them to death. For 20 seconds, all friendly units in a wide radius receive +50% armor and become fearless. Aragorn and nearby heroes become invulnerable
- Unmount Brego

King Elessar - On foot

- Anduril
- Athelas
- Knife Throw
- Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Heroes will now cost 15% less resources and will deal 25% more damage. This buff is also applied to Aragorn. Units will receive a +30% armor boost. Units of the Fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth may be recruited in the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill

King Elessar - On Brego

- Glory of the Dunadan
- Athelas
- Final Stand
- Unmount Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Heroes will now cost 15% less resources and will deal 10% more damage. Units will also receive +25% damage boost, and are fearless. Units of the Fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth may be recruited in the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill

This way, Aragorn the Heir/King can be seen in a double view: while riding Brego, his powerful horse from Rohan, he's the leader and the King that Men were waiting for. But Aragorn is before anything an excellent fighter, capable of facing the worst situations, shown when he unmounts Brego and fights his enemies with courage


Gandalf the Grey

As for Gandalf the Grey, a good way to use both of its forms, without forcing the player to purchase the spellbook power, is to use a mechanic similar to the one present in the Hero Submod in the Edain 3.81.

Therefore, Gandalf the Grey will cost 2200 resources, and will have the following abilities:

- Wizard Blast
- Lightning Sword
- Mount
- You Shall not Pass: Gandalf emits a powerful shock wave, which slightly damages and stun nearby units and also inflicts moderate damage to nearby buildings
- Battle of the Maiar: Gandalf faces his final test: he fights a Balrog of Morgoth. This Balrog may be summoned only if there are no nearby enemies, and he will attack Gandalf. He has to defeat him (his skills will reload faster). ALL Nearby units will be terrified by the clash and will not interfere. The Balrog can also be attacked by Gandalf, only. Should he be able to defeat him, he will die nonetheless for the effort and for the wounds, but after two minutes he will return to the closest citadel as Gandalf the White

This represents, to me, a more lore-wise way to show Gandalf's prowess and his return as the White, which is the most powerful rank an Istari may achieve. Also, since the ability can be cast in any moment, it gives the player a more challenging way to upgrade Gandalf: if he summons the Balrog while on lower levels, there's the risk he's not able to defeat him, therefore vanquishing his efforts and having to revive him as Gandalf the Grey (of course, the Balrog will disappear if Gandalf isn't able to defeat him). If he summons the Balrog while on higher levels, he will likely defeat him and get the free upgrade, but the enemy will have gained more time

[ziqing]

I like your design, also I am thinking about changing Athelas to "hands of healer" while he is mounted, this would be passive leadership which could protect allies nearby from poison and heal them slowly while not in battle. The idea of yours, in my understanding, is to give Aragorn the role of leader instead of lone warrior while he is mounted, right?

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, this proposal is a little bit tuned down, I guess, but my points still stand and therefore I don't really agree with this concept. Its still a huge buff which would be essential for Gondor's theoretical strength and it would appear ludicrously late in the game seemingly out of nowhere (and having "Final Stand" before the ghosts would be an anachronism), which is not the thing usually described as a small buff or "nice to have"-addition (except of course the reincluded fiefdoms ).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Adrigabbro]

But I agree with Adrigabbro.  Aragorn is already one of most useful heroes in the game.  I would say that Gandalf does need more attention right now, but I'll be honest, I can't really think of something that will fix the problem with Gandalf.  His High Risk/High Reward play style was something I would say he always had, so maybe it really isn't problem.

Well, I know it is controversial, but I've always thought than Gandalf, especially when he is The White, should have some kind of leadership, so that he would still be usefull even when he retreats in the middle of your army. I know he got that leadership from the ring of fire and the latter is carried by Cirdan in Edain, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied by the absence of leadership.
The first concern would be : what leadership could he use, since Gondor is already full of different leaderships ? And wouldn't it be too overpowered? Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership. To balance it, Faramir leadership could be turned down, and in the same time the Ranger camp could be cheaper, so that buying Faramir is still a thing (it would give more credits to Rangers by the way, they are rarely used).
The second concern is: Gandalf already got 5 abilities, most of very iconic. Well, it may be a matter of preference, but I think he doesn't really need the light ray that much. I can very well see a leadership replacing this ability.

Tell me what you think please.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership.

If I am not misaken, this is impossible for technical reasons.
(The thing that nullifies the leaderships is something called an "Anti-Category" which is present in the Nazgûls' debuffs. Edit: Correctly speaking it is an entry inside their .ini which is an additional description of their aura, but I guess this is just for the one's really interested in this^^ *Edit end* Now all leaderships carry the line "IgnoreIfAntiCategoryActi ve = Yes" which results in them being shut down once the unit also suffers from an AntiCategory. I have zero idea what happens, when you add the same line to the Nazgûls' debuffs, but even if it would nullify their debuffs (which I am not certain, it will) it is still a regular AntiCategory, meaning all friendly leadership should be gone as well. Again, one needs to test this a little more in depth, but I am pretty sure it won't work as intended. Sorry.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: From a technical point of view, you never have to sacrifice a button for a passive ability. Practically everytime this is usefull (in that complex passive abilities require a certain explaining) or serves the balance (in that a leadership is of course an ability, meaning it should cost a slot), but the slot in itself is EVERYTIMES not necessary. If it's just for really small buffs (like Gloin being able (still?) to attack fortresses or Zaphragor healing really fast), this can just as well be done via their recruting text or somewhere else.
Therefore, if Gandalf the White would, say disable fear effects / make nearby allies resistant to fear, this wouldn't take away a slot, it could just be mentionend in the spellbook power. I don't really know, what the Team thinks about this, but since there are certain effects (enemies fearing Sauron and Nazgûl, the leadership of Gandalf the Blessed (definitely the wrong name, only know the german word right now; I'm talking about his bright Ring form ), ...) that do not appear directly inside the hero's palantir, this might be an option.

[DrHouse93]

The idea of yours, in my understanding, is to give Aragorn the role of leader instead of lone warrior while he is mounted, right?

Exactly.

@Melkor, the problem is that, ironically, Aragorn from level 7 and forth is not so efficient in hero killing as he is at lower levels. When he becomes Aragorn the Heir, he loses the Knife Throw, which, together with his impressive damage, is what makes him (and Celeborn and Eowyn as well) an awesome hero killer: the capability of dealing heavy damage to an hero even if he's running away. At its place, he gains Brego, which is a useful ability, sure, but I think that throwing a knife at an enemy is more efficient than chasing him rushing inside enemy troops, and I really can't see Aragorn at level 7 used as a scout with Brego. Also, the Elendil/Demand of the King abilities aren't so useful in late game: when you have higher levels heroes and units upgrades, they can deal a lot of damage to Aragorn before he's able to cast one of the two skills (since the casting time is quite long). Furthermore, Demand of the King won't certainly kill an escaping enemy hero, and as Elite Kryptic said, it's kinda repetitive, since Gondor has already access to the Army of the Dead through the spellbook.

That's why I'd like to give to Aragorn a dual role on higher levels: when mounted he becomes a little more tank and supporter (therefore making his Brego ability more useful and giving Aragorn more useful skills), but when on foot he keeps his menacing hero killing skills. Of course, to balance this out, Faramir's and Dol Amroth soldiers leadership could be slightly debuffed, but I'd prefer not, because there are even more powerful things in the mod right now (e.g. all the Mordor debuffs combined with their huge numbers can make it almost impossible to defeat it. The same applies with a fully upgraded army of Dwarves with Thorin's leadership and a lot of Khazad-dum Veterans. Not to mention Nenya's Invulnerability, the Star of Ealendil or the Enchanted River, which can decide battles when combined with Silverthorne arrows)

[Hamanathnath]

Well, I know it is controversial, but I've always thought than Gandalf, especially when he is The White, should have some kind of leadership, so that he would still be usefull even when he retreats in the middle of your army. I know he got that leadership from the ring of fire and the latter is carried by Cirdan in Edain, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied by the absence of leadership.
The first concern would be : what leadership could he use, since Gondor is already full of different leaderships ? And wouldn't it be too overpowered? Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership. To balance it, Faramir leadership could be turned down, and in the same time the Ranger camp could be cheaper, so that buying Faramir is still a thing (it would give more credits to Rangers by the way, they are rarely used).
The second concern is: Gandalf already got 5 abilities, most of very iconic. Well, it may be a matter of preference, but I think he doesn't really need the light ray that much. I can very well see a leadership replacing this ability.

Tell me what you think please.

I don't know if you ever have played the first Battle for Middle Earth game, but Gandalf used to have a very powerful leadership, but was cut from Battle for Middle Earth 2 (replaced by the ability to change stances). 
As for the suggestion, I am totally for Gandalf having a leadership.  A Debuff Nullifier would be interesting, but I would suggestion just making Allies fearless, which I think would fit Gandalf's role in the Movies (and I'd assume the books). 
What ability would be removed for this leadership?  None.  My suggestion would be to put it as an extra benefit on the Spellbook Power, Gandalf the White.  This would allow Gandalf to keep all his abilities, and I don't think not allowing Gandalf the Grey to have the Leadership is bad. 

[Melkor Bauglir]

@DrHouse93:
I'm afraid, you didn't really get my point. It is not about the fear of making Gondor too strong and I definitely understand the idea of giving Aragorn a more supportive nature (at least on later levels), since he is basically the free people's greatest hope and their prime leader once he acts as Gondor's king.
My problem I have which this is solely the fact that these abilities would come extremely late while being extraordinarily powerfull. Not this sounds like a dumb thing to say since spells like Word of Power are pretty strong and come pretty late -that's again not my point. However, spell's like WoP don't come out of nowhere: Gandalf is a mass-slayer directly from the start, as much as Galadriel has a supportive nature, therefore ultimately justifying her final ability. Aragorn however starts (and stays long times!) which no attributes resembling those of a support and technically he only deserves this from level 7 onwards.
I guess, I'll repeat my Thorin example: The problem is that Gondor's gameplay is severely changed after a discrete point in time which is not at all guaranteed to happen at all in an ordinary game. For example, Boromir's and Faramir's leaderships are fairly reliable because you're given access to them pretty fast. Owning a level 10 Aragorn is nothing easily achieved, yet it would give Gondor a hefty buff.
This is just bad gameplay-design, because it's basically the famous "reach point A to win the game" and in this case it's a point which really comes out of nowhere.

Let's make a counterexample to make this clearer: Suppose Aragorn would be a hero-killer- / support-hybrid from level 1 (not just Athelas^^). If both these roles got gradually stronger, I wouldn't see something negative about it. Since this isn't the case, the points mentioned above do apply.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[DrHouse93]

Ok, now I get it^^

Personally, I see no problem on changing Aragorn's role later on, but I think that a nice mechanic to correctly show the "lone-but-heroes-and-later-units-supporter-warrior" nature of Aragorn can be found

I'll think about it^^

What do you rather think about my Gandalf "hero submod" concept?

[Elite KryPtik]

Melkor Bauglir, your talking about Reach Point A to win, I'm afraid that is already present for most factions in the game independently of heroes. Once you have upgraded tower guards as Gondor, you have won. As Isengard, once you have upgraded uruk hai with captains and shieldbearers, you've won. As Dwarves, once you have Veterans of Khazad Dum and heroes with mithril, you've won. As Lorien, once you have Galadhrim with silverthorns, you've won. As Mordor, once you have Minas Morgul/Dol Guldur and call the horde, you've won. Do you see my point here? That's not even taking heroes into account at all. I do not understand your reasoning at all. Aragorn's current role ALREADY changes once he levels up, he just doesn't have many useful abilities for his supporting role. Even his heal skill isn't working properly, its supposed to heal all nearby units and heroes, but only affects heroes. We are just trying to get him an ability to actually make him useful as a unit supporter at level 10. Now, I do not agree with giving him a passive leadership, but I see no issue with an ability which buffs units for a set time and then has to recharge.

For my part, I totally agree with having Gandalf the White nullify debuffs if it can be accomplished in the engine.

[Hamanathnath]

@DrHouse93:  I don't agree with many of the changes in your concept for Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey.

Aragorn:  Now I like your concept for Final Stand, though I think that adding it to just the Mount Form of Aragorn is a bit odd.  I know your are going for Unmounted Aragorn to be a Hero Killer, and Mounted to be a Supportive Hero, but still, Aragorn is already argueably the best hero killer in the game, so giving him Knife Throw Unmounted might be a little too much.  Another problem is that if you keep it Final Stand as Mounted only, the player can just use it, and then switch back Unmounted, where he will have access to both Anduril AND Knife Throw.  This would make him way too powerful in my opinion.

Glory of the Dunedain also seems like an ability that is not really needed.    Gondor has enough leaderships for their units, as well as Beregond's leadership for heroes, and if Final Stand is added along with this Ability, it will be too much.  If you want Aragorn to be more supportive while Mounted, he should keep his Elendil ability on his horse.  And if you don't think that's enough, maybe adding a debuff to Enemy Heroes to Elendil would be interesting, showing that they too also fear that ability, but not to the point where they will run away.

I will finish this post later, talking about Gandalf the Grey.  Ran out of time

[DrHouse93]

Just wait a little. I'm modifying my main post for an improved version of Aragorn, who will have supportive skills from the beginning^^

EDIT: I've changed the main post, so it's more easy to read^^

[Saeros]

Since there is so much talk about Aragorn, I'll make my proposal too..
In the Arnor faction there is a hero recruitablr from the ranger tent (can't remember his name now sorry).
The player gets to decide what his path will be followed, the ranger, or the king path.
Why not apply this to Aragorn also?
The ranger path will contribute mainly in his hero- killer role, with a supportive ability and the king path will contribute mainly in his supprotive role, with Anduril (his most iconic ability)
The abilities of each path should be as DrHouse93 had in mind and presented, with some small changes , because as I stated before some of them althogh not so OP in first place, if they will stack with the rest awsome leaderships of Gondor will make it invincible.

P.S leave Faramir alone he is one of my fav characters, don't mess with him 

[Hamanathnath]

I was going to edit my original post, but this post will be very long and I don't want to add an edit that's longer then the post itself.   

Gandalf the Grey:  I am against the changes presented for Gandalf.  I find Battle of the Maiar to be a very cool concept, but extremely not gameplay friendly.  What I mean by that is to get Gandalf the White, you gotta get Gandalf away from enemies, and fight a Battle that will most likely talk all your attention.  The enemy could use this opportunity to attack your other forces or your base, and they will have the advantage because your focused on Gandalf and the Balrog.  And if you take your focus away from them to deal with your enemy, there is a chance Gandalf is killed by the Balrog.  Over all, this would be way too complicated to handle.  As cool as seeing an ability like this would be, it would just be too much for the Gondor player to do.  And even if you do win, Gandalf dies and you have to wait for him to come back, which put you at a disadvantage of not having Gandalf available for a long time.

I would like to see Gandalf the White to have some sort of Leadership with Fear Resistance or a Debuff Nullifier, but other than that, I would say Gandalf is fine.

Aragorn 1.2: I do like the changes to better then the other, but I still have some concerns.  The main one is that Aragorn having that sort of Leadership would make Gondor too powerful.  Boromir is the only one that can give units a bonus of Armour.  Denethor's Promotion also give the groups of the improved banner carriers more Armour.  And if you think that is still not that much, you must realize that Tower Guards already are insanely hard to kill once they are upgraded.  Making Aragorn that leadership would make Tower Guards pretty much Unkillable.  And that's not even taking into consideration that Final Stand will make them also incredibly strong.  It's just too much.

I do like Charge, but I don't exactly know why it isn't just added in with Final Stand.  There isn't a reason not to use it with Final Stand, so adding them together would just make it more convenient.  And I think that Final Stand should also be able to be used Unmounted, and Elendil should be a mounted skill.  The reason for this is that Aragorn yelling Elendil would most likely take more of an effect if he is higher up, becuase the enemy would be able to see it better, and would be able to realize that Aragorn wields Anduril. 

I do like the ability Decapitation, though the passive buff to Aragorn seems kinda pointless.  But I do think that maybe, if Decapitation kills the target, nearby enemies would be likely to cower, showing that they are in fear of how their hero was killed.

I do like how much effort you put into thinking about this topic. 

[Elite KryPtik]

I am still completely against any changes to Gandalf, his abilities are far too iconic. The only acceptable one in my view is that he receives a nazgul debuff nullifier without an ability if it can be done in game. I would like to point out that Gandalf has a leadership in bfme2 that doesn't have a button, you can see units light up when you walk him near them, here is the information.
http://www.gamereplays.org/battleformiddleearth21.08/portals.php?show=index&name=men-unit-info-angelsfan&tab=7261360

As for Aragorn, I like your concept, but the problem here is that the abilities are so insanely powerful. As has been said, Gondor already has 2 leaderships from Boromir and Faramir, adding Aragorn on top of those 2 passive will make your army unkillable unless its debuffed, and it just isn't necessary for Aragorn to have a passive leadership. For Final Stand, its far too strong of an ability, and basically a copy of Thorin Oakenshields Gleam of the Arkenstone. Making all nearby heroes invulnerable in addition to those unit buffs is stupidly strong for a single ability.

I just don't think he needs a complete overhaul, that's asking for far too much from the team and its very unlikely to happen in my view. Just a couple changes, like replacing Demand of the King with a final stand type ability, or letting him use it 1 time and then replacing it, and maybe making the passive at level 10 a little bit better by allowing units of the fiefdoms to be recruited at the barracks or something, without making it a direct leadership.

[Hamanathnath]

I just don't think he needs a complete overhaul, that's asking for far too much from the team and its very unlikely to happen in my view. Just a couple changes, like replacing Demand of the King with a final stand type ability, or letting him use it 1 time and then replacing it, and maybe making the passive at level 10 a little bit better by allowing units of the fiefdoms to be recruited at the barracks or something, without making it a direct leadership.

Yeah, just to clarify, if the team were to leave Aragorn the way he is right now, It would be perfectly fine.  He is already a very useful hero.  If there is one change I would want, it would be making Demand of the King a 1 time use, and replace it with a "Final Stand" ability.  But I do like Aragorn the way he is now. 

[DrHouse93]

I have to disagree with you, guys. Aragorn is certainly a useful hero, but he becomes less powerful and efficient at level 7, when he becomes the Heir. I mean, as much as I like his Brego ability, what is its purpose? Even compared to other hero killers, Celeborn at level 7 gains the Squall ability, which protects him by arrows and nearby enemy units, Eowyn gains the Shieldmaiden ability, which decreases the damage taken by heroes and even more the damage taken by enemy units. What about Aragorn? He gains a mount ._.
So, while I'd not wish to see his Brego skill gone, I think it must be atleast more useful than granting Aragorn more speed movement. Furthermore, I think that his role as a leader and only hope for the survival of Men isn't shown at its best

That's why I'd like to see it changed a little. From a technical point of view, his leadership will just give a small armor boost, which, combined with Boromir's one, is still inferior to  the damage boost granted by Faramir + Dol Amroth soldiers (+75% damage against +63% armor) and will mainly affect units not bulky enough (such as Dol Amroth soldiers). It's true that Tower Guards will be much more resilient, but right now there are a lot of ways to counter them (Freezing Rain, all the Mordor debuffs, or even heavily armored Uruk-Swordsmen with the sword upgrade from the Steelwork and buffed by Lurtz. Not to mention the Dwarves elite units)

Finally, the Final Stand ability will give yes a powerful boost, but just for 20 seconds (I was inspired by Theoden's Glorious Charge for the effects). Furthermore, Aragorn's hero killing skills are disabled during the effect and will have to reload when it ends (forgot to mention that in the main post, I will fix it). This will make the player to choose: does he need a powerful but temporary boost for his troops, or does he need Aragorn at his full potential?

On the other hand, I agree with you about the Demand of the King ability. I think it's a bit repetitive, since Ghosts are already present on the spellbook

[Elite KryPtik]

There is something you are overlooking about Aragorn drhouse, he can use Blademaster WHILE mounted on Brego. No other hero in the game has both a mount and blademaster, except Eowyn, but hers only gives armor, and only small armor against non hero damage. Aragorns Blademaster remains one of the best slayer type powers in the game, giving a great armor and damage boost against everything, combined with a mount, makes him one of the most formidable hero killers in the game, who can also do great damage against units. Don't forget about Elendil either, scattering armies to escape or allow your armies to pick them off while they flee can be devastatingly effective, and I have used it to decide battles. Like I said before, you are asking for too much, and if you ask for a complete overhaul its not likely to happen, and frankly, it doesn't need to. He just needs a bit of a tweak for his final 2 abilities at level 10, he doesn't need a complete overhaul.

[DrHouse93]

Don't misunderstand me, I know it has access to his Blade master while mounted in the actual version, that's why I'd like to limit that skill on when he's on foot: by granting it while he's mounted too would make it a little OP

About the Elendil skill, it can be useful to send away units, but against heroes isn't so useful for a small reason: if he's fighting an enemy hero and units are interferring, while he casts his Elendil skill (let's suppose he has already used his Blade master skill), he can still be attacked by the hero. Also, the ability will take some time before its effects are applied, time in which he could be still attacked by nearby units, as well as the above mentioned enemy heroes and even ranged units (when mounted, furthermore, he's also more visible and therefore more targetable in the middle of the crowd, which will put him even more in danger)

[Elite KryPtik]

So you argue that right now he isn't a strong enough hero killer late game, and then say that Blademaster while mounted is OP? You are contradicting yourself my friend. The weaknesses you listed with Elendil are only possible if you send Aragorn in alone, which you should NEVER do. If you are supporting him with an army and other heroes, then those problems go away. You must remember that heroes (except Sauron) are not 1 man armies in the Edain mod. You have to support them with troops and other heroes, even if they are a hero killer, and then do your best to micro them while the larger battle is going on.

[ziqing]

There is something you are overlooking about Aragorn drhouse, he can use Blademaster WHILE mounted on Brego. No other hero in the game has both a mount and blademaster, except Eowyn, but hers only gives armor, and only small armor against non hero damage. Aragorns Blademaster remains one of the best slayer type powers in the game, giving a great armor and damage boost against everything, combined with a mount, makes him one of the most formidable hero killers in the game, who can also do great damage against units. Don't forget about Elendil either, scattering armies to escape or allow your armies to pick them off while they flee can be devastatingly effective, and I have used it to decide battles. Like I said before, you are asking for too much, and if you ask for a complete overhaul its not likely to happen, and frankly, it doesn't need to. He just needs a bit of a tweak for his final 2 abilities at level 10, he doesn't need a complete overhaul.

I am just curious, since you are one of the most experienced player we know, do you feel that Aragorn is an efficient hero killer when he is mounted? In the previous version I found the animation of mounted Aragorn is glitchy and laggy, his sword seems too long for mounted battle and the attack frequency is low, if you ordered him to attack some moving single units while he is mounted, he will just move and stop and move and stop...never get the chance to attack.

[DrHouse93]

Ok, maybe I've explained that bad. What I'd like is not to nerf or remove his Blade master ability. We can all agree that one is a really powerful ability. What I'd like to see is his Brego and supporting skills more useful, because right now they're not so much efficient nor useful, in my opinion (what's the point of using Anduril/Elendil on Brego, rather than on foot?). Here's the whole point of my proposal: what better way to improve his supporting abilities, while debuffing his fighting skills, than actually changing his role ONLY when mounted on Brego?

If you don't agree with my proposal amen, I'm not forcing anyone to do that. I'm just trying to explain as clearly as possible my reasons and motivations to change the current representation of Aragorn

[Elite KryPtik]

ziging, I have never had a problem with using Aragorn while mounted, but I don't do it that often, only when I need to chase down a fleeing enemy hero. Its better to have him on foot in the middle of your army to help him blend in, so enemy heroes don't focus him down.

drhouse, I agree with increasing the usefulness of his final leadership ability and giving him a better active power than Demand of the King, but I do not agree with a complete overhaul of Aragorn. He is already one of the most expansive heroes in the game in terms of how many different abilities he gets in all his different stages. I think the team would be open to tweaking his final 2 abilities a bit, but I seriously doubt they would give him a complete overhaul like you are proposing.