Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey improvements

[DrHouse93]

Greetings, companions of the Edain!

Today, I'd like to show you some ideas I've got to improve two heroes that concern me, these being Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey. What I'd like to suggest are some concepts regarding those two heroes, which can be summarized with some peculiar skills. Going into details:

Aragorn concept v1.2

Aragorn, even if a lone warrior, is an inspiring figure for all those fighting with him, who are proud to fight with him. Other than that, he's also the prophesied king of Gondor and Arnor, returned after centuries of stewards ruling the reign. However, right now Aragorn is just a pure Hero Killer, which becomes a not so good unit supporter on later levels and also losing some peculiar hero killing skills. I think that, given his price, lore, courage and impressive fighting skills, he should have a hero/unit supporter from the start, although very slightly at the beginning, of course, other than his hero killer role. So, this is my new idea for Aragorn:

Strider

As Strider, Aragorn will keep his main skills intact, because they're more than appropriate, but he will also have a passive hidden leadership (similar to the one of Gandalf the Challenge Master, which heals nearby units, even if it doesn't have a palantir slot) which is the following:

Chieftain of the Dunedain - Strider is a powerful lone warrior, other than the leader of the Dunedain of the North. His figure inspires other heroes. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +15% damage. Hobbits and non-combatant units - such as Corrupted Theoden - will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +15% armor. Passive skill
This ability represents Aragorn's inspiring figure even if he's still a lone warrior who hasn't accepted his fate yet. Of course, the buff should be low for balancing reasons

Aragorn

When he receives Anduril and leaves the path of the Ranger, Aragorn receives an improved leadership:

Mighty warrior - Aragorn is powerful warrior, who also wields Anduril, the sword forged by the pieces of Narsil. His figure inspires other heroes and standard units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +25% damage. Hobbits, basic units and non-combatant units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +25% armor. Passive skill
As you can see, the leadership is now more powerful, and also affects basic units like Gondor Soldiers, or Rohan Peasants. This is to show the trust the Rohirrim have gained in him after the brave resistance he did in the Battle of the Hornburg

Aragorn the Heir

When he becomes Aragorn the Heir, he also gains the ability to mount on Brego, his powerful warhorse from Rohan (another sign of the trust and friendship of the Rohirrim). However, he loses an important hero killing skill, which is his Knife Throw, which I think is more useful for killing heroes than chasing them while riding on enemy troops, and I really can't see Aragorn at level 7 used as a scout thanks to his newly gained riding ability. To compensate that, his Elendil skill will be improved and will now weaken enemy heroes' damage by 15% (Eowyn at level 10 has a similar ability, while Celeborn's damage grows the more heroes are around him, so the ability is not OP). Aragorn the Heir's new skills will therefore be the following:

On foot
- Anduril
- Athelas
- Elendil
- Brego
- The Heir of Isildur: Aragorn has finally accepted his fate as the prophesied King of both Gondor and Arnor and the only hope for Men, leading them to whatever end. His figure inspires other heroes and units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +33% damage. Hobbits, non-combatant and all other units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +33% armor. Passive skill

On Brego
- Decapitation: Aragorn wields Anduril, the flame of the West, forged by the pieces of Narsil, which permanently grants him +60% damage and +30% armor. Passive effect - I don't remember if this is the default passive effect of Anduril. Anyway, this one remains unchanged - The ability can also be casted on enemy heroes and single units. The former ones will be heavily damaged, while single units (such as Berserkers or Beornings) will be instantly killed

This ability is taken from the extended scene at the Black Gate, where Aragorn decapitates the Mouth of Sauron, and it's also a way to not leave Aragorn vulnerable to enemy heroes when he's mounted on Brego (fighting with a sword is harder while riding an horse, that's why I think his hero killing skills should be limited to when he's on foot). Thanks to ziging for the suggestion
- Athelas
- Final Stand: Aragorn's courage inspires the hearts of the men following him, even if he's leading them to death. He talks to them, biding them to do the final stand against the enemy.

All allied units in a wide radius will only receive 10% of the normal damage for 20 seconds and become fearless. For the duration of the skill, Aragorn and all allied heroes in his proximity will become invulnerable. This ability can't be casted if Aragorn is fighting. When the ability is casted, all nearby units and enemies as well will stop fighting to hear Aragorn's words. The effects of the ability will be applied at the end of the speech
This ability represents Aragorn's inspiring figure at his peak: when the Army of the West is surrounded by the forces of Mordor at the Black Gate, and he's able to make his men charge the enemy despite it was basically a suicide. The button images for the ability could be one of the following:



- Unmount Brego
- The Heir of Isildur

While Final Stand is active, the skills Anduril, Decapitation, Athelas and the promotion to King Elessar are disabled, while his Elendil skill is replaced by the following:
Charge - Aragorn and all nearby units under the effect of the Final Stand will charge at the enemy, dealing increased trample damage. Left click on the enemy units
Of course, this has his drawbacks: trample damage means that the units charging will get recoil damage (just like cavalry). Furthermore, since not being cavalry, the trampling will end to just the first row of enemy units
This is the button for the charge ability:

And this is the sound effect:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/58y4xw52soqrknz/AragornFinalCharge_Sound.wav?dl=0

After the effects of Final Stand are over, Aragorn's skills will have to reload as if they've been just used. This will give the player an hard choice: does he need a powerful but temporary boost for his army, but having to renounce to Aragorn's skills until they're reloaded, or does he need Aragorn at his full potential?

King Elessar - On foot

- Anduril
- Athelas
- Elendil/Charge
- Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Aragorn has finally become the King of Gondor and Arnor. Heroes will now cost 15% less to recruit or revive. His figure inspires other heroes and units. Nearby allied heroes will be proud to fight with him and will gain +33% damage. Hobbits, non-combatant and all other units will feel protected and therefore they'll gain +33% armor. Also, units from the fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth can be recruited from the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill
The final leadership of Aragorn, which is finally visible in the palantir, fully shows Aragorn's newly gained status and importance for Men

King Elessar - On Brego

- Decapitation
- Athelas
- Final Stand
- Unmount Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom

All in all, I think this new concept of Aragorn would give the player a small buff (I know that Gondor has already a lot of leadership, but let's be honest: the only one who grants an armor bonus is Boromir, which is not enough for, e.g., the Soldiers of Dol Amroth or other units, since most of the times they die nonetheless. Atleast, this happened to me quite many times) while being more lore-wise and by not distorting too much Aragorn's role

Gandalf the Grey concept v1.1

Concerning Gandalf the Grey, I think he's underused, too, mainly because, given his price and skillset being exactly the same as for Gandalf the White, most players just buy the 2pp spellbook power as soon as possible to immediately turn him to Gandalf the White. Therefore, a good way to use both of its forms, without forcing the player to purchase the spellbook power, is to use a mechanic similar to the one present in the Hero Submod in the Edain 3.81.

Therefore, Gandalf the Grey will cost 2200 resources, and will have the following abilities:

- Wizard Blast
- Lightning Sword
- Mount
- You Shall not Pass: Gandalf emits a powerful shock wave, which slightly damages and stun nearby units and also inflicts moderate damage to nearby buildings
- Battle of the Maiar: Gandalf faces his final test: he fights a Balrog of Morgoth. This Balrog may be summoned only if there are no nearby enemies, and he will attack Gandalf. He has to defeat him (his skills will reload faster). ALL Nearby units will be terrified by the clash and will not interfere. The Balrog can also be attacked by Gandalf, only. Should he be able to defeat him, he will die nonetheless for the effort and for the wounds, but after two minutes he will return to the closest citadel as Gandalf the White

This represents, to me, a more lore-wise way to show Gandalf's prowess and his return as the White, which is the most powerful rank an Istari may achieve. Also, since the ability can be cast in any moment, it gives the player a more challenging way to upgrade Gandalf: if he summons the Balrog while on lower levels, there's the risk he's not able to defeat him, therefore vanquishing his efforts and having to revive him as Gandalf the Grey (of course, the Balrog will disappear if Gandalf isn't able to defeat him). If he summons the Balrog while on higher levels, he will likely defeat him and get the free upgrade, but the enemy will have gained more time

What do you think about it?

[VectorMaximus]

I absolutely agree that King Elessar's leadership needs to be reworked, and I like the way that you suggested it. I think the idea of the charge could be a good idea, but I'm still kinda iffy on it.

However, I feel that Gandalf's abilities are iconic and should remain. In addition, people would still choose to get Gandalf the White as soon as possible, in case they got the ring (at least I would; does anyone want Corrupted Gandalf over Gandalf the Challenge Master?). So I don't believe there is any reason to create a different set of abilities for Gandalf the Grey vs Gandalf the White.

I don't know if making Gandalf need to die is a good idea though. It feels like an extra arduous step, that while lore accurate, just isn't worth it. Would Gandalf be free for the revive, or instantly revive, or what?

[Saeros]

I cannot express any opinion concerning Aragorn because I think that the balance of the game will change, and he will become way to powerful, although I like your suggestion in general.
Concerning Gandalf the Grey I totally agree with you, since this was something that was troubling me too, although I would like to see his moveset change and become exactly as the dwarven Gandalf (the Lightning Bolt should be changed with the Pine Cones and the Light of the Istari with the Dragon Firework, just as his last move to become as you proposed)
The price reduction, if Gandlaf is to be nerfed then it is obviously logical to happen, but the death and resurrection thing is not very functional.
To turn him to Gandalf the White in order to have some more depth and lore- friendly use I could think of turning him into lvl 8 thus his ultimate move (as Gandlaf the Grey) is unlocked and then after using it for the first time he will turn to Gandalf the White (assuming that the player has purchased the respective Power)

[DrHouse93]

Concerning Aragorn, I think his leadership is one of the most useless (again, not talking about the hero reduction cost), simply because it's not so likely to fight on a nearby statue. And you're right, the balance would change, but I don't think it would become too overpowered, since overpowered leaderships are already present (someone said Nazgul? Or the Witch-king?)
As an example, to balance Aragorn's leadership, Faramir's one could be nerfed, even if I love it, but I think Aragorn should definitely have a more important role when he becomes the Heir and the King of Gondor, other than hero killing

As for Gandalf, the idea of having him die was a way to make Gandalf the White available not so soon (which also included turning him more powerful), but I must say I like Saeros' idea that, when casting his "You shall not pass!" skill once you have purchased the spellbook power, it will turn Gandalf the Grey to White
Also, Vector, you're right about the Ring matter (Gandalf the Challenge Master is definitely superior than the Corrupted), but keep in mind that Gondor has another Ringhero, and by making Gandalf the White less available will give the player an harder choice on who to give the Ring, once he acquires it

[radagasti01]

I agree with your ideas about gandalf, cause follow the role too.
But i don't agree so much about Aragorn. I think Gondor just have 2 really good leadership with Faramir and Boromir, 3 good bonus is a lot.
If you nerf or change Boromir or Faramir abilities that thing of Aragorn is ok.
Like change Boromir like a pure tank and not unit supporter.

[Linhir]

Remember also about my old idea of carriage instead of shadowfax.
This is "must implement" thing.

[Melkor Bauglir]

I strongly advise against giving King Elessar a real leadership. Gameplaywise he doesn't need one, also it is a conceptual nightmare to grant absolutely central abilities that late: The defining abilities should always be reached rather quickly, because they are the reason for you to buy the hero in the first place. Otherwise you get a problem the old Ered Luin dwarves had: They had zero leadership spells untill Thorin reached level 10 (which is still the case if I'm not mistaken, yet that might be changed) while the other realms had a leadership (spell) directly at level 1 of their respective Dain which was stupid. However at level 10 Thorin gave +75% damage to all nearby units, making him probably the strongest support in the entire game aka god. This creates a horrible design flaw where faction XY basically has to be designed to be strong enough without spell Z (because it's completely unreliable coming that late in the game), yet the faction gets essentially a ridiculous buff upon getting this spell.

Therefore a little leadership like now doesn't blur Aragorn's role, gives a nice nod towards his status as King of Men and requires no rebalancing of Gondor. I guess, nothing speaks against a minor improvement, but he shouldn't directly buff any nearby troops -maybe reinclude his "making Gondor only united kingdom again"-theme, granting access to the fiefdoms (and DA) via the regular barracks, stables and archery ranges.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Walküre]

Regarding Gandalf, fair arguments have been raised about Gandalf the Grey and his status and overall role in the faction, taking account of the possibility that the player has to turn him into Gandalf the White.
A significant reminder, though, is necessary to be made.

It's quite out of question that Gandalf the Grey's powers could ever be changed.
There are various statements of the Edain Team throughout the forum that clearly reaffirm this fact/boundary, and some threads have been consequently closed for this exact reason.
Gandalf the Grey's abilities are too much iconic (a fundamental memory of the very BFME1) to be ever modified; along with that, Gandalf in the Dwarven factions has to be necessarily different from his counterpart in Gondor as one follows the Hobbit timeline and the other the War of the Ring timeline.
I don't know if the Edain Team is willing to change idea in the future, but this has been the common praxis so far.

I agree though that the 'resurrection motive' that characterises Gandalf the White should be more prominent in the game (if we manage to come out with some suitable proposals).
Gandalf the Grey dying in order to be resurrected as Gandalf the White doesn't personally displease me so much.

[Elite KryPtik]

I really like the idea around Aragorn, and give it my support for what its worth.

I was, however, about to make my own thread with a similar but different idea, I will post it here instead.

So, I think that Aragorn's "Demand of the King" does not fit in with his role as a hero killer AT ALL. You already have a full blown Army of the Dead summon with 10 power points, and I would much prefer to not have a redundant ability that does pretty much the same thing for Aragorn. So this therefore is my idea proposal to completely REPLACE Demand of the King.

Ability Name: Either "Hour of Wolves" or "For Frodo"
Description: "The strength of Aragorn's will can inspire men to perform incredible feats for the love of their King, and march into certain death if need be. All nearby units gain complete fear resistance, +50% armor and damage, and -50% movement speed for 2 minutes, while all nearby heroes gain +25% armor and damage for 2 minutes" Please note, this is an ACTIVE ability, not a passive leadership.
Sound: Aragorn's ENTIRE speech at the Black Gate, beginning with "Stand Your Ground!" and ending with either "I bid you STAND! Men of the West!" or "For Frodo"

Now, my thinking behind this is that Gondor is an extremely defensive faction. This ability would play further into that strength, making your units incredibly resilient but slowing them down a lot too. This would represent the final stand of the Men of the West at the Black Gate, and could be used to excellent effect while defending a castle, but perhaps not so much while attacking an enemy. Now, since this ability gives fear resistance, the passive leadership he has at level 10 would have to have the fear resistance removed so that it wouldn't be a redundant ability.

For a final note, PLEASE folks, keep in mind that most factions in the game have some means of removing leaderships: Mordor has Nazgul, Dwarves have Ravens, Isengard has Crebain and Grima, and Rohan has Eomers Monument ability. The only opposing factions who cannot debuff enemies is Lorien and Gondor, and since Gondor mirror matches are so rare they don't really matter. Lorien doesn't need to debuff as they can just stand back and shoot you with arrows while your units are super slow, or use Galadriels level 10 power to make all units INVULNERABLE (yeah, because that Isn't OP at all ) So this would NOT be overpowered, it would just have to be timed well when your enemy has used up their debuffing abilities, or the enemy would have to play well to counter it. I think this would make a lot more sense in terms of what he does in the Film as well as the Lore of Aragorn in general, being such a great leader of men. I really think that Demand of the King is a redundant ability that should be replaced.

[ziqing]

Similar proposals concerning roles of Aragorn have been brought about several times by different people during the past year, so far with no real progress. I hope this time it will bring some well-deserved attention.

[Adrigabbro]

To be fair, I'm more concerned about Gandalf than Aragorn. While the latter is present in most MP games and accepted as one of the strongest heroes in the game, the former has yet to be seen. Plus, playing with him is more frustrating than anything else: you get one wizard blast before retreating immediately in the middle of your troops, putting him on defensive stance and waiting for the cooldown. I think Gandalf needs more attention than Aragorn right now.

[Hamanathnath]

Concerning Aragorn, I do agree Demand of the King does not fit his Hero Role, BUT it does fit his Character Role, so I don't agree with Elite KryPtik that it should be replaced.  However, I think that Aragorn should get a "Final Stand" sort of Ability, so here is my proposal.

I think that Demand of the King should be a One Use Only Ability.  After its cooldown timer is over, it will be replaced with an Ability similar to the one Elite KryPtik suggested.  I think this is the best way to add an ability like this is because not only does it allow Aragorn to have both Abilities, but it also makes sense because once the oaths of the Oathbreakers are fulfilled, I'm pretty sure lore-wise Aragorn can't just keep summoning them to protect him.  And Demand of the King can be made a little stronger if needed, considering it can only be used once.

But I agree with Adrigabbro.  Aragorn is already one of most useful heroes in the game.  I would say that Gandalf does need more attention right now, but I'll be honest, I can't really think of something that will fix the problem with Gandalf.  His High Risk/High Reward play style was something I would say he always had, so maybe it really isn't problem.   

[ziqing]

I basically agree with your concern about Aragorn's role and that now his role in game doesn't represent his experience in lore well. Edain team designed him to be a pure hero killer with almost the best 1 vs 1 ability among heroes of all factions, I assume that's why they refuse to give him any useful leadership for the previous version. I have proposed the idea a long time ago that he could gradually change his role through his path from ranger to king, focusing on hero killing for early stage(ranger and rohan form)and on leadership and tank for late stage(heir and king). So the player will think more and choose whether to let him go to the next stage(since he will lose his hero killer aspect) in one game, depending on the situation.

Previous thread concerning this:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31281.0.html

[DrHouse93]

So, after having read all your opinions, I'd like to improve my previous concept^^

Aragorn

When Aragorn becomes the Heir and the King of Gondor, he will have a dual role. While on foot, he will remain the hero killer. While on Brego, he will become unit and hero supporter. His skills will therefore be the following ones:

Aragorn the Heir - On foot
- Anduril: same as default
- Athelas: same as default
- Knife Throw: same as default
- Brego

Aragorn the Heir - On Brego
- Glory of the Dunadan: Aragorn is the prophesied returned Heir and King of Gondor. Wielding Anduril, the Flame of the West, forged by the pieces of Narsil, combined with his impressive fighting skills, make him able to face every situation with courage, also inspiring the men following him. Aragorn permanently receives +30% armor, while units and heroes around him receive +15% damage and experience. Passive ability

This ability is meant to show Aragorn's fighting skills and the capability to inspire others due to his backstory and well-known sword, as well as not leaving him vulnerable to enemy heroes
- Athelas
- Final Stand: Aragorn's courage is able to inspire the hearts of the men following him, even if he's leading them to death. For 20 seconds, all friendly units in a wide radius receive +50% armor and become fearless. Aragorn and nearby heroes become invulnerable
- Unmount Brego

King Elessar - On foot

- Anduril
- Athelas
- Knife Throw
- Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Heroes will now cost 15% less resources and will deal 25% more damage. This buff is also applied to Aragorn. Units will receive a +30% armor boost. Units of the Fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth may be recruited in the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill

King Elessar - On Brego

- Glory of the Dunadan
- Athelas
- Final Stand
- Unmount Brego
- King of the Reunited Kingdom: Heroes will now cost 15% less resources and will deal 10% more damage. Units will also receive +25% damage boost, and are fearless. Units of the Fiefdoms and from Dol Amroth may be recruited in the Barracks, the Archery Range and the Stable. Passive skill

This way, Aragorn the Heir/King can be seen in a double view: while riding Brego, his powerful horse from Rohan, he's the leader and the King that Men were waiting for. But Aragorn is before anything an excellent fighter, capable of facing the worst situations, shown when he unmounts Brego and fights his enemies with courage


Gandalf the Grey

As for Gandalf the Grey, a good way to use both of its forms, without forcing the player to purchase the spellbook power, is to use a mechanic similar to the one present in the Hero Submod in the Edain 3.81.

Therefore, Gandalf the Grey will cost 2200 resources, and will have the following abilities:

- Wizard Blast
- Lightning Sword
- Mount
- You Shall not Pass: Gandalf emits a powerful shock wave, which slightly damages and stun nearby units and also inflicts moderate damage to nearby buildings
- Battle of the Maiar: Gandalf faces his final test: he fights a Balrog of Morgoth. This Balrog may be summoned only if there are no nearby enemies, and he will attack Gandalf. He has to defeat him (his skills will reload faster). ALL Nearby units will be terrified by the clash and will not interfere. The Balrog can also be attacked by Gandalf, only. Should he be able to defeat him, he will die nonetheless for the effort and for the wounds, but after two minutes he will return to the closest citadel as Gandalf the White

This represents, to me, a more lore-wise way to show Gandalf's prowess and his return as the White, which is the most powerful rank an Istari may achieve. Also, since the ability can be cast in any moment, it gives the player a more challenging way to upgrade Gandalf: if he summons the Balrog while on lower levels, there's the risk he's not able to defeat him, therefore vanquishing his efforts and having to revive him as Gandalf the Grey (of course, the Balrog will disappear if Gandalf isn't able to defeat him). If he summons the Balrog while on higher levels, he will likely defeat him and get the free upgrade, but the enemy will have gained more time

[ziqing]

I like your design, also I am thinking about changing Athelas to "hands of healer" while he is mounted, this would be passive leadership which could protect allies nearby from poison and heal them slowly while not in battle. The idea of yours, in my understanding, is to give Aragorn the role of leader instead of lone warrior while he is mounted, right?