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Angmar Balance Discussion

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Draco100000:

--- Zitat von: ringbearer am 10. Apr 2016, 10:57 ---
--- Zitat von: Lord of Mordor am 10. Apr 2016, 02:24 --- Furthermore, Mornamarth and Gulzar will now require the Men of Carn Dûrm or Sorcerer Outpost respectively so you have access to less heroes in your base.

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I don't think it's a good idea, I can't think of anyone who would choose Gulzar insted of Mornamarth. Mornamarth is strongly linked to Man of Carn Dum, makes them cheaper and more powerfull while Gulzar has his own accolytes, he doesn't need sorcerers and they don't need him. Time will tell but I bet it will end up with no Gulzar at all in games.

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I think i would use it depending in the situation, if my enemie is a spam-faction I would use gulzgar because his great poison dmg. If my enemie is armoured and lower in troops i wiould choose men of carn dum because sooner or later i will have to use men of carn dum and the reduction cost is really needed.


In my opinion the hero who should be recrutable in the outpost is durmath, I see monamarth too important hero to be in an outpost.



--- Zitat von: Hamanathnath am 10. Apr 2016, 03:35 ---

About Sorcerer's, I did not mention them in my original post because I didn't use them enough to have an opinion on them.  The main problem I have with them right now is their Command Point cost, which is dreadfully low.  I think it needs to be at least 45 CP per group. 


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I would say even 120 cp. There are units like dwarven hunters who take this amount of cp and cannot kill entire armies. As well elite archers so mages should be in this group of high cp cost units.

Elite KryPtik:
I agree with moving Wolf Breeding to level 1, because the wolf riders are an early game unit, who become ineffective in late game. I also heavily agree with requiring 2 tribute carts to make a level 3 building.

Agree with all of Hamans points in his first post.

I think moving Mornamarth and Gulzar to the outpost is a good idea, but I have a problem with Mornamarth. It takes a huge amount of time to get him to level 8, I think that the discount ability should be swapped out with another ability and unlock at a sooner level. The lack of discount really makes Men of Carn Dum less valuable until very late game, at least for me. I find that Hillmen spam combined with the Hillmen settlements can do a huge amount of damage combined with wights. Which brings me to something not brought up.

WIGHTS! Holy crap these things are strong, they just don't die. They're like berserkers on steroids. Something needs to be done to nerf them, either cost or something else, because right now you don't even need to make any barrow wight lairs for discounts. Just spam those Hillmen or Orcs until you have an outpost, then make the wight lair on that. Once you have 5-10 wights and Karsh you can take down upgraded armies of elite units with nothing but hillmen and wights. Now, with some AoE power nerfs this might not be as true, but I still think that wights are incredibly cost effective right now, probably the best single style unit do to their health steal.

Finally, I have an idea for Plague. I agree that this is an extremely strong power, and if we look in the lore it basically is what kills off the last resistance in Arnor. So I think that Avalanche and Spread Plague should be swapped, plague for 10 points and avalanche for 7. Avalanche is good, but I feel like its not quite worth it as a 10 point power, while plague feels overpowered as a 7 point power.

So those are my thoughts :)

Garlodur:
The ET's decision to lock Mornamarth and Gulzar behind the Outpost upgrades to the Men of Carn Dûm and the Sorcerer's Tower respectively, seems like a good way to balance out the amount of heroes recruitable from the fortress.

The reasoning behind Mornamarth I see as that you never recruit him without choosing for creating an army of Men of Carn Dûm, just like you want him to support those Men once you start your army to focus on the late game elite units they are.
Gulzar, also makes sense, although I agree he seems to work more on his own. But then again, all those sorcerers really do work on their own, using the acolytes. I agree that these units need to be nerfed: the most significant changes would be to increasing their recruitment time and the amount of Command Points they need: either to 45 as they are supporting/single units (comparable to Battle Wagons, Beornings and Uruk Berserkers) or 120 because they actually have the abilities to support a large army (like heroic units such as the Dol Amroth Knights, Minas Morgul Knights etc.).

Concerning Dûrmarth: would it make sense to lock his passive Seals behind the heroes that he receives them from? I was thinking of a few options:

1) As soon as these heroes (Witch-King, Karsh, Mornamarth, and Gulzar) are recruited, the passives take action respectively for which heroes are on the battlefield.
2) A combination of the first option with the requierement of levelling up Dûrmarth to specific levels.
3) Only giving the passives once these heroes reach a certain level, such as level 10. In this case, the passives should remain with Dûrmarth after those heroes die.

I understand that Dûrmarth's progress as a hero is intrinsically linked to the mightier heroes of Angmar (I imagine this is how the Fan-fiction was written?) so I believe there needs to be a more sensible way of implementing this. In addition to this, it allows the team to reduce Dûrmarth's cost and attributes to resemble more a hero that is moderately strong in Early Game, relatively weak in Mid Game, but reasonably strong in Late Game protecting other heroes and slaying enemy heroes.

Hamanathnath:

--- Zitat von: Garlodur am 12. Apr 2016, 12:44 ---The reasoning behind Mornamarth I see as that you never recruit him without choosing for creating an army of Men of Carn Dûm, just like you want him to support those Men once you start your army to focus on the late game elite units they are.

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On the contrary, I would argue, at least in 4.3, that getting Mornamarth before you get your Men of Carn Dum is actually a better idea.  The reason behind this is Blood and Iron, while it does strengthen from nearby Men of Carn Dum,  it also hurts them.  But even without Men of Carn Dum nearby, Blood and Iron can kill hordes of Weak units if used properly (again, this was in 4.3, not completely sure if this is still the case in 4.3.1).

As for all your other suggestions, especially on Durmarth, I would recommend playing 4.3.1 if you haven't already, where a lot of changes took place concerning Durmarth and Sorcerers.

Odysseus:
Hmm, I have a few points I wanted to bring about.

1: The Obelisk
How much is the debuff, the cooldown reduction and its health/armour?
Spam heavy factions (Mordor in particular) suffer greatly from Obelisks, with only Carc's ravens being a similar ability. However, the ravens are temporary and also serve as scouts. The obelisk being permanent and with a good amount of health, I feel that the obelisk should be made weaker with also a smaller debuff range.
2: I discussed this in the internal forums already, but the Carn-Dûm Pikemen's passive ability is really overpowered. How are you supposed to counter them if all attacks, even ranged, reflect portions back to the aggressors? Not to begin about how heinous the amounts of damage heroes take while trying to deal with them. Either nerf it drastically, or change it. This ability is quite toxic in design.
3: The Slayers from Mount Gram summon is very powerful. I propose it to be toned down, because I had it kill heroes with ease and it summons four hordes instead of the usual 3, for only 2 CP. Either one less horde or 1 extra CP.

We need to take a good look at all those abilities that make Angmar so incredibly powerful, especially with the Men of Carn-Dûm and their amazing abilities and the support they get.

Placing Mornamarth in the Citadel was a good change. I hope we can keep doing these kinds of changes and fine-tune the faction further.

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