[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Discussion and Feedback
Misty Mountains Speculations and Questions
Julio229:
--- Zitat von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Mai 2017, 20:49 --- Hello Fellows of Modding union xD;
Since there are a lot of discussions around the mighty Smaug, i decided to present my general (for now very raw) idea of my "ideal Smaug". Take it in the spirit of this thread: discussion and speculation no more than that (at least since MM faction will be near ). Feel free to give your own opinion about anything related to the concept of the future Smaug and what you like/don't like about mine (i repeat in general is a first raw idea without many details):
SMAUG THE GOLDEN : MY PERSONAL CONCEPT
First of all i want to make a clarification : this whole concept has been made with the spirit of the thread itself. It is not something to present (we are still far from MM) but only to speculate and discuss and, eventually, to take as a source of inspiration for future concepts.
I decided to focus the attention to the three fundamental aspect of the mighty dragon :
- He’s a very powerful weapon
- He’s greedy
- He’s very smart
Possible initial statistic values of the dragon :
- recriutment cost : 5500.
- Initial HP : 12000.
- Population cost: 30 (like other heroes).
- Initial melee attack value: 300.
- Type of melee attack: AOE.
The core of my concept.
Initially the Greatest Calamity of Middle Earth will have a weakness against arrows while flying, but with an increasing of the armor at level five. Following the lore and films Smaug has an impenetrable armor, it is practically impossible to fear him with normal weapons. Since this interpretation would be unbalance in game, it is impossible to implementi it as it is. Anyhow, the player must have (at least) more chances to survive against rains of arrows. Therefore i decided for that increasing of armor at level five.
The dragon will have two different animation in flight and on the ground like in 3.8.1 (Drogoth+Summoned dragon).
As for the fire related abilities: i don’t think fireball and fireflies fits very well with a dragon. These type of attack are more related to wizard, which are able to create such particular form of fire attack using magic. In particular we have these two abilities just implemented via Gandalf (Dwarves) and Saruman . I will explain better all the details below in the skill-set.
Smaug skill-set in flight.
Basic attack like fellbeast and eagles.
Rank 1 : "Landing" – as usual.
Rank 1: “Incinerate” – the power is no more at level 10 and so nerfed, it will be something more effective against unit, as a first mass-slayer area of effect ability, like for example is wizard blast for Gandalf and Saruman. The animation of course will remain the same of Drogoth. Personally i think Smaug deserves some more devasting power for the last level.
Rank 3: “Roar of the Beast” – the fearsome roar of the Golden one makes the enemy flee in terror.
Rank 5: “Impenetrable amour (passive)” – quoting Tolkien, “my armor is like tenfold shields”. Smaug permanently gains +50% armour against arrows.
Rank 7: “Wings like an hurricane” – Smaug uses his massive wings to create an air blast that knock back units in a wide radius dealing also medium damage.
Rank 10: “I’m fire, I’m death” – like we seen in the scenes of BOTFA during the attack of Lake Town, Smaug sets fire on the ground while flying, burning everything in a hell of fire. The crucial point of this last ability is the animation. The most fitting to resamble what we have seen in the movie, is the Dragon Strike attack. Supposing the power will be removed of the spellbook of MM of course. Just imagine this beautiful animation given to Smaug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTynrCcWYS0
Smaug skill-set on the ground
Now the basic melee attack of Smaug is fire as in 3.8.1.
Rank 1 : “Flying “– as usual.
Rank 1: "Dragon Breath": a fire attack very effective against gates. Smaug’s Firebreath opens Gates and even burns garrisoned units. I simply copied the one presented so far by the team but i make it active and not passive. Same animation of the basic fire attack. Also the flames of Firedrakes from vanilla game are very good but probably is difficut to adapt such animation to a bigger model like the one of Smaug.
Rank 3: “Roar of the Beast” – same as in flight.
Rank 5: “Dragon Sickness (passive)” – The desire of gold and treasures makes Smaug very greedy. He collects resources from fallen enemies and destroyed buildings. I think a similar ability is necessary to capture his greedy character.
Rank 7: “My Claws are Spears” – Smaug uses his legs and claws to smash the enemy units. For 30 seconds he can trample the masses swatting all on his path (just think about the amazing scenes in which he enters into Erebor).
Rank 10: “Hypnotic Gaze” – also this ability is something presented by the ET years ago. I don’t know what exactly means this ability (there’s no description). My interpretation is something related to the evil face of Smaug and his serpentine and powerful voice: the effect of his gaze and voice immobilizes enemy heroes and weaken them. (the particular scene in which his words penetrate the mind of Bilbo that takes off the ring ). This last ability if rewoked well (mine is very raw) could capture his character as evil,smart and speaking dragon.
THE GRAPHICS
I have not yet a clear idea about the palantirs of the different powers. Of course the most must be inspired by the hobbit movies in my opinion. I'm quite critic about some horrid things seen in the movies, but not for Smaug which is well succeeded in any aspect. However i will stick to the classic four legs dragons which is more lore-loyal and it avoids animation problem. The model by Aotr is the best example:
I would change only the colors, in favour of a more bright red like this miniature of gw:
But is a matter of personal tastes :)
Let me know what is your ideal Smaug for Edain 4.0 and what would you change about him ;)
--- Ende Zitat ---
I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".
The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.
--- Zitat von: Secret Keeper am 22. Mai 2017, 22:37 --- This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.
I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. Monsters are such an integral part of the BFME experience, and MM represents (at least for me) the faction where the biggest monster threats should be. Smaug is also so iconic, probably the most iconic aspect of The Hobbit, and I feel like it would be wasting his potential not to have him as a regular Hero.
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: Secret Keeper am 22. Mai 2017, 22:37 ---This is probably unpopular opinion, but I would cross Smaug off from hero list. Monsters in BFME games are so hard to operate, they always trample, suffer huge damage, few animation bugs. They are cool but they really suck in game in general, from trolls -> olyphants -> to dragons. I would rather leave ring in Bolg's hands and use Smaug as huge catastrophy you can call on others - exactly as Dragon Strike from vanilla.
I do believe that having Smaug as a regular hero and even as Ring hero will cause more problems than help and enjoyment.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It is not so unpopular actually :) Just look at the BOTTA mod Smaug for example. Anyway i prefer to stick to my idea as permanent hero: i like powerful summoned heroes too, like Balrog for example, but i think in case of Smaug we have to make him recruitable in order to not waste such a great potential. He's a complex character to be a monster, and i think is worthy to be reworked as a new permanent hero.
Monsters in general have some intrisic defects, but currently i like very much how the team reworked them (expecially trolls and ents) in 4.0 with respect to 3.8.1. There will be always a margin of improvement even for monsters ;)
--- Zitat von: Julio229 am 22. Mai 2017, 23:01 --- I really like your idea! I'd find Smaug fun to play and faithful to lore this way, even cooler if he said his quotes as he used his abilities "My claws are spears!".
--- Ende Zitat ---
Not only that but also for the other abilities we have a lot of sound material from Benedict voice (for level 10 : "i am fire,i am death " so epic would be xD xD).
--- Zitat von: Julio229 am 22. Mai 2017, 23:01 ---The cost should be maximum 3000, because AI can't recruit Heroes that are worth more, that's one of the reasons that make me think he should only be recruitable after the completion of certain tasks, as was suggested before. This would help to make up for his (probable) OPness, and would be like Isengard's level 5 fully upgraded Uruks with Steelworks upgrades: A place of advantage enemies of the Misty Mountains can't allow them to reach.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Didn't know about this problem. Now that i think how the AI usually work is quite logic: it usually wastes constantly resources to train masses of unit, so probably wouldn't recruit such an expensive hero. Some task system would be fitting combined with an initial cost of 3000. I like this idea xD
In fact i proposed that 5500 as an initial value to start the debate, without thinking about restrictions if not the high cost itself.
Odysseus:
If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: Odysseus am 23. Mai 2017, 00:23 ---If Edain somehow manages to get their hands on that gorgeous THL/AOTR Smaug, I could die a happy man. Maybe if we ask DúnedainRanger or Mathijs very nicely ^^.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Me too man :D as I wrote a brighter red wouldn't be so bad. For the rest is perfect. It's simply the model I always dream for Edain mod. A perfect match between Drogoth body and Smaug shape.
Walküre:
As Julio rightly pointed out, heroes can't cost more than 3000 resources. A sort of rule that we may not defy. It's thus imperative that values be confined within that range. Also, if I remember correctly, there are gameplay-related reasons for that choice, given that the Edain Team didn't want to make any hero that expensive (and therefore effective), as it would happen in the previous chapters of the Mod's history. The 4.0 era is generally more focused on coordinating the different characteristics of each faction and on finding a holistic strategy (rather than relying too much on single features).
Regarding Smaug's design, I doubt that the AOTR Team would gladly agree with sharing such precious model, and I would totally understand their decision. We're not talking about a general unit or other secondary characters; I think their own version of Smaug is really the prime jewel of their own vision and impressive gallery, and every project is probably supposed to retain its own unique elements. Reversing the reasoning, it would just be like the Edain Team sharing their central subfaction-system of the Misty Mountains with another project. This consideration of mine is obviously set aside from the fact that I too would love to see that amazing concept in the game; hopefully, the current model will be overhauled or the Edain Team will create another anew (though extremely difficult it might turn out to be).
Feel nonetheless welcome to develop the discussion further, since we get closer and closer to the Misty Mountains with each day passing, even if that is a quite slow process ;)
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