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#30 von Walküre am 12 Mai, 2016 01:27
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Quotation from Odysseus:Zitat
He stated specifically that being able to bend elements would take tremendous amounts of strength or longevity, akin to that of Maiar and above, or individuals possessing objects that are imbued by the power of Maiar or the inheritance and origin of their folk, like the elves.
Yes, this is the main point
Completely relatable also, in my opinion, to the Light Bringers of Imladris.
That was a really nice narration, Odysseus. Of course, I always like reading walls of text, especially when they are so much creative; fortunately, they are not a crime in this amazing forum
Regarding your suggestion, I don't want to enter deeply numbers and balance-related matters, but I think it could really be a solid beginning to start from. It seems to me a legitimate and accurate way of giving sorcerers more gameplay and lore consistency, and coming up with smarter mechanics.
Addressing Lord of Mordor: Thank you very much for having explained the basic themes you used and focused on in the shaping of the faction; the general portrait is now much clearer. I nonetheless still think that this kind of sacrifice motive is not really so closed to the main common lore that you can holistically determine in the Silmarillion and in the most lore-based passages of LOTR (even though Tolkien seems to change idea a bit, sometimes). If that quotation, though, gave you the basic inspiration for the current rendition, I am totally fine then; they are words coming directly from Tolkien, and they are completely legitimate too
By the way, now that I think about it, the iconic and common theme of the mightiest evil leader that sustains its realm and minions with its own energies is somehow already present in Angmar. The Witch King's Might of the Witch King exactly enhances heroes' abilities (Gulzar's included, of course). -
#31 von Lord of Mordor am 12 Mai, 2016 02:29
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As some have said, Gulzar already has a backstory, though it is quite old. In our original concept, Gulzar was the only genuine Black Numenorean in Angmar. He was taken from Umbar by the Mouth of Sauron and forced into servitude for Mordor, where he learned Dark Arts much like the Mouth himself had. Later, he was sent north along with the Witch-king to aid him in his mission. I quite like that story because it gives Gulzar a reason for his sorcerous powers that is in line with a magic user we already know, the Mouth. Though it does make the assumption that the Mouth of Sauron is thousands of years old - which is possible considering that he entered the service of the Dark Tower "when it first rose again", but not confirmed.
I do like the idea that Angmar's sorcerers work through lesser rings of power though. That is quite a cool idea.
Interestingly, while further researching possible magic in Angmar, I came upon two quotes in Tolkien's manuscripts as described in "The Peoples of Middle-earth", which describe the "evil folk" of Rhudaur as "workers of sorcery" and "much given to sorcery". This, however, is not repeated in the official appendices, so we can't be sure whether Tolkien later changed his mind on that.
What does appear in the appendices though, are superstitions about the Witch-king held by the men of Forochel: "And they were afraid of the
Witch-king, who (they said) could make frost or thaw at his will", and "For in summer
his power wanes; but now his breath is deadly, and his cold arm is long."
Once again, this is not definitive - while it does imply mastery of winter magic, it could also just be silly superstition. Then again, Arvedui died for not heeding the Lossoth's advice, so who knows
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#32 von Odysseus am 12 Mai, 2016 03:00
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I think it's enough to work with. You don't really have a choice in that regard anyway, so might as well go along with it.
Obviously, I prefer my story, since it makes more sense from my point of view. I mean, Numénoreans were long-lived, but not thousands of years old. What we could say is that he received a Ring of Power from the Witch-King and then travelled to Mordor, to learn sorcery?
I don't know, pick my story already, it's simpler
.
In all seriousness, I look forward to seeing that lore article being revised and eventually released to be read to our hearts' content. -
#33 von Walküre am 13 Mai, 2016 16:21
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Gulzar being a 1000-year-old and more Black Númenórean could be plausible, at an extent. What if, for example, he were given one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves in Sauron's possession?
I read once, somewhere on the Internet, an interesting theory that suggested that the Mouth of Sauron was exactly given one of the Seven, and that this might explain his probable deep knowledge of sorcery and his extreme longevity. Given that Sauron gathered back three of the Seven (while the remaining four were consumed by the fire of the Dragons), this speculation doesn't seem to violate the lore in any of its aspects, at least substantially.
Thus, Gulzar may have received too such a 'Gift' from the Dark Lord, ending up with becoming a considerable evil force, master of dark arts and terrible sorcery along with the Witch King (wielder of one of the Rings of Power too). I think this could give Gulzar the proper 'legitimation' and high status that he currently seems to lack, and that the Community implicitly 'demanded' (in my opinion) when the polls indicated him as one of the least favourite heroes of Angmar. What do you think?
By the way, I don't believe that those passages from the Appendices are really superstitions, after all. As mighty magical beings like Sauron and Galadriel always manage to modify the surrounding weather and environment of the World according to their Magic (probably, the most effective display of Magic in the Tolkien's Universe), it's not so impossible then to presume that the Witch King could have made the winter in the North bitter and colder at will too, or summoned sudden blizzards against his enemies. The lore gives us many elements to speculate concretely about this topic. -
#34 von Gm am 17 Okt, 2016 11:22
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Hello everyone. I'm quite a newby in this forum, but I liked a lot reading the discussion about the apparent conflict between Angmar's sorcerers and magic and Tolkien's lore. I'm personally quite a big fan of Tolkien's mythology (even though I can't claim to be as expert as DieWalkure) and I would like to share my thoughts about the issue.
It is definitely true that magic in Tolkien's world is something much higher and mysterious than the usual magic found in the fantasy genre (like Harry Potter or WoW), to the point that its effects are never really described in details (such as for example the actual powers of the Three Rings. What could they really do?). Furthermore, we never have a clearcut and precisely described distinction between magic and dark arts (and to me all this opaqueness of details is what makes Tolkien's world so fascinating). And I definitely agree that only beings of great power and will could wield magic, certainly not common men.
Having said that, I still think that the presence of sorcerers in Angmar other than the Witch-King himself shouldn't be considered as so anti-lore. I always had a feeling when reading Tolkien's works that the First Age was thought as a sort of mythical past, the age of legends and gods, when men were still somehow primitive, something like norse or celtic mythology. As we descend towards the Third and Fourth Age we proceed to an evolution of mankind in terms of ability to invent and modify the world. But Tolkien seems to have always been quite negative towards attempts to "modify the Creation", think for instance to Saruman's "Industrial Revolution" or his creation of Uruks. I also recently came across a writing in the History of Middle Earth in which Tolkien gave some more accounts of Numenor's dark days and at a certain point he mentions "ships capable of sailing on their own and other wonders", which reminded me a lot of steamships (and actually a steampunk ambientation for Numenor seems really great in my mind). Anyways, all this wall of words just to say that it could fit to have the Witch-King teaching men how to pervert the laws of nature and performing "experiments" such as infecting cultists with plague and sending them to Arnor in a sort of bacteriological warfare, because in the Third Age men start seeing themselves as the masters of creation and attempt to dominate it (and being misguided by Sauron's teachings). This too was mentioned somewher in the History of Middle Earth. Of course, this is really mere speculation and we cannot invent too many oddities, yet the presence of sorcerers as evil men trained in some form of "perverted science" which others would see as sorcery to me could fit quite well. Yet, I definitely agree with the suggestion of making sorcerers a semi-heroic unit, limited to 3, more expensive and also more resistant.
Just a final thought: I'm Italian and in the LOTR translation in Italian the Witch-King is translated as The King of Sorcerers, so before reading this discussion it seemed natural to me that Angmar was crawling with wizards, witches and stuff!
Well then, sorry for my bothering you and my logorrhea, have a nice day!
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#35 von Walküre am 17 Okt, 2016 18:48
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I'm personally quite a big fan of Tolkien's mythology (even though I can't claim to be as expert as DieWalküre) and I would like to share my thoughts about the issue.
Now you're seriously making me blush
Thank you for having shared your precious thoughts. There are people here with a much more consistent knowledge of Tolkien's universe and its variety of details. What I just really enjoy is speculation and getting myself involved in vast (and long!) debates about the general foundations of Tolkien's lore.
Regarding the topic, I already expressed my opinion in the previous passages of the thread. Just as Radagast pointed out, Tolkien contradicts himself numerous times in his different writings and it's thus not really so easy to draw a definitive line which clearly defines what is wrong and what is right (legitimate, more precisely). Some people are very keen on accepting even the most controversial interpretations and referring to all the Professor's sources in search of answers; others, as I personally do, prefer instead, in front of challenging issues, to look back to the 'purest' (often the earliest/oldest) sources like the Silmarillion and so try to categorise the common pillars (guidelines, boundaries,...) that sustain the whole propriety of the Legendarium.
There could obviously be many more ways to consider things and both the above-mentioned praxes present their own advantages and disadvantages. Magic is exactly one of those boundless themes one will find extremely tough to specify completely. As I view things, I think the major lore-indications offer us enough evidences of the concrete differences that divide Good Magic and Black Magic; in a closer perspective, I really believe that human Magic is always confined and restrained within certain boundaries, and I consequently oppose any kind of proliferation of human sorcerers or Elven mages that can dispose of their power so loosely (taking also into account that extreme element-bending is even something beyond to the average possibilities of the Eldar).
Nevertheless, I also acknowledge and recognise the gameplay reasons behind their presence in the game and I appreciate very much the Edain Team's endeavour to set limits to their role (making them more valuable, by the way).
P.S. Anche io sono italiano. Se non l'ho fatto prima, ti do il benvenuto su Modding Union. Il riferimento al Re Stregone come 'Re degli Stregoni di Angmar' (uno dei suoi titoli) è davvero interessante, ma non cambia la mia opinione di molto. Spero di avere ancora l'occasione di discutere con te