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Autor Thema: Dwarven Ring Hero  (Gelesen 3433 mal)

The_Necromancer0

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Dwarven Ring Hero
« am: 9. Jun 2016, 08:28 »
So, as of the recent news of the 4.4 Patch it is the Ring-Heroes that now must pick up the Ring which puts Durin at an odd since he is one of the few Ring Heroes that cannot physically move over to the Ring. Therefore with the news it seems that Durin will be replaced by another hero. Now, I've never been a real fans of dwarves, too hard enslave if you ask me  :P, but if there was one thing I loved about them it was Durin, he was a both innovative and fun to play with, so I was quite sad when the news came around that he will probably no longer be a ring hero. So I've got a couple concepts, both my own and from reading comments, that I've gathered about in an attempt to keep Durin the Ring Hero.

First we have to clear any "unit picks up the ring and brings to specific building", it has been stated by the team that this is not possible. The only possible way, as of the recent news, is for a Hero to pick up the Ring and then a specific action will occur either becoming the Ring Hero, summoning him, ect... This still leaves a great number of possibilities for the community. So what does that leave us with:

A Spell
Of course a possibility is a spell that summons or allows the summon of Durin or of an incarnation that can pick up the Ring to become Durin. It was something that was mentioned but however I'm personally against that idea. Whether we summon an incarnation or Durin himself it is still extremely unbalanced since they can be summoned instantly on the spot of the Ring, along with that one must be careful not to create abilities that would be useless in ultra competitive no-ring fights. But if this was a possibility I would suggest that the "Apparition of Durin" replace the greed and have a passive abilities which could function a a small buff along with 4 runes that can be used to boost buildings, the key there is that all runes will go on cooldown once one is used meaning the player can only chose one per summons.  Durin himself would have to replace on of the Tier 3 or 4 powers which could cause other problems but the idea would to have a temporary summon of Durin which can become permanent if he takes the Ring. This is quite simple and a nice concept but however it is too overpowered as the heroes can be cheaply summoned at the location of the ring. With that me move on to possibility number 2:

A Summon
Once a designed hero ceases the ring he summons Durin. While this strays from the lore it is the best way in my opinion to keep Durin in the game. Very simple the designed heroes, most likely Dain and Thorin take the Ring and that summons Durin along with giving the Ring to him. In this manner there is still a certain requirement since a Ring Hero must be bought but it can be incorporated within the new system.

Those are the two concept are the two possibilities that will allow Durin to stay in the game. He is a great concept and great ways to show that the dwarves are united in some aspects. Having two different Ring Heroes would just feel wrong especially considering that there are three Dwarven Realms but would most probably only be two Ring Heroes.
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kingsjewel

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #1 am: 9. Jun 2016, 18:57 »
And if Durin does appear in the Spellbook? Although you're right in the Dwarves should  have only two Ringheroes. Unless Erebor should get a new hero. (because Dáin Ironfoot should be the Ringhero of Iron Hills.)

Garlodur

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #2 am: 9. Jun 2016, 22:21 »
I quickly want to leave my thought on this.
We assume that Durin is reincarnated in a new body but that his soul always lingers around. Would he enter just a random Dwarf's body then, as soon as he/she is born?
No, he would only enter those bodies of his direct/purest descendants.

This leads me to propose that only Dwarves of direct lineage can pick up the Ring: Daín, Thorin III, Thorin Oakenshield, Balin, Dwalin, Gimli, Gloín, Fili and Kili.
Now I realise that this is not very balanced for so many options to pick up the Ring but I have two solutions:
1 - We limit the ability to pick up the Ring to key individuals of each sub-faction, being Daín and Thorin Oakenshield (imagine that of all the beforementioned heroes, only they made it to Kings)
2 - All these Dwarves leave their body to let Durin's spirit enter it. Consequences are that they disappear and make place for Durin.

I hope this inspires some more progression in the discussion.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #3 am: 9. Jun 2016, 22:35 »
And if Durin does appear in the Spellbook? Although you're right in the Dwarves should  have only two Ringheroes. Unless Erebor should get a new hero. (because Dáin Ironfoot should be the Ringhero of Iron Hills.)
Well if he does appear in the Spellbook as a summon who can pick up the ring then it will be extremely unbalanced giving the Dwarves an enormous advantage. From what I've seen in this mod, the Team can tell when something like that might happen and try to balance it out.


1 - We limit the ability to pick up the Ring to key individuals of each sub-faction, being Daín and Thorin Oakenshield (imagine that of all the beforementioned heroes, only they made it to Kings)
2 - All these Dwarves leave their body to let Durin's spirit enter it. Consequences are that they disappear and make place for Durin.

I hope this inspires some more progression in the discussion.
1. That's a good idea, the summon by other hero picking up the ring is definitely what I think is the better idea however 2. I don't think it should take the place of theses heroes, because of certain key problems regarding balance:
-If those heroes are level 10, what level will Durin be? (Level 10 would be too easy and level 1 would mean the player loses a lot)
-What of the role of the replaced hero? (Durin is mostly a building destroyer but Dain and Thorin are more unit supporters)
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kingsjewel

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #4 am: 10. Jun 2016, 05:47 »
No, I didn't think so. Durin would be a summon hero from Spellbook like Gandalf or Beorn. Thorin Oakenshield/Dain from Iron Hills/someone else in Erebor pick up the Ring and become Ringhero.
Durin would stay so but he wouldn't be Ringhero.
But just it's an idea. :)

bookworm1138

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #5 am: 10. Jun 2016, 07:51 »
Unless Erebor should get a new hero. (because Dáin Ironfoot should be the Ringhero of Iron Hills.)

Actual post-RotK lore: Thorin Stonehelm's son was Durin VII. In this light, Erebor's Ring Hero should be Thorin Stonehelm, since through him Durin returned in the story. As far as the inconsistency between Erebor and Iron Hills goes, we can say that the IH Thorin was too young and, as his father had not yet claimed the Throne Under the Mountain, he could have no claim upon Durin's part, as both Oakenshield and Dain had.

Addendum: this suggestion follows after the idea that one of the Heroes of the Dwarves takes the Ring and becomes Durin. Instead of making him level 1 or 10, make him correspond to whatever level the Hero was when he picked up the Ring (like how Sauron doesn't become level 10 once the Necromancer has the Ring)
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Jun 2016, 08:04 von bookworm1138 »
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FG15

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #6 am: 10. Jun 2016, 08:57 »
Actual post-RotK lore: Thorin Stonehelm's son was Durin VII. In this light, Erebor's Ring Hero should be Thorin Stonehelm, since through him Durin returned in the story.
Where did you get this information? As far as I know everywhere is just stated that Durin VII is a decendant of Thorin III and not actually his son.


Summoning Durin by the spellbook will not happen, because the AI won't be able to use him then.

Zitat
Addendum: this suggestion follows after the idea that one of the Heroes of the Dwarves takes the Ring and becomes Durin. Instead of making him level 1 or 10, make him correspond to whatever level the Hero was when he picked up the Ring (like how Sauron doesn't become level 10 once the Necromancer has the Ring)
Then the hero would have Durin's level after his revive.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #7 am: 10. Jun 2016, 10:48 »
I think that one possibility is to allow to recruit a spirit of Durin  at the beginning who isnt able to attack but gains this power when picking up the ring

Wisser

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #8 am: 10. Jun 2016, 20:57 »
referring to heroes of the Storm there could be the existence of Durin ingame like the ability "Avatar" of Muradin. So in fact, Thorin II. or Dain (King and Lord) are ring heroes and got a special ability where they switch the model to Durin and are also able to use Durins skillset. After a time the model of durin dissapears and the ring hero remains in his old model.

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bookworm1138

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #9 am: 10. Jun 2016, 22:44 »
Where did you get this information? As far as I know everywhere is just stated that Durin VII is a decendant of Thorin III and not actually his son.

Appendix A in the back of my copy of Lord of the Rings. Durin VII comes right after Thorin Stonehelm. Usually this indicates father-son relationship (like with Dain Ironfoot and Thorin Stonehelm), when the son's name is directly below that of the father. Though this isn't the case between Durin the Deathless and Durin VI at the top of the family tree, I see no indication that there were any others between Thorin Stonehelm and Durin VII.
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Linhir

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #10 am: 29. Sep 2016, 22:43 »
Maybe Durin could be summoned from his statue, like it was before, but he won't be a ringhero? Let's say... after Thorin/Dain gets ring, option to recruit Dain will just unlock. ;)

kmogon

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #11 am: 29. Sep 2016, 22:49 »
Maybe the best way is to implement Durin to 10point spell citadel where you will be able to buy him. If this is needed he can be buyable only when you have the ring .

Walküre

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #12 am: 29. Sep 2016, 23:30 »
Maybe Durin could be summoned from his statue, like it was before, but he won't be a ringhero? Let's say... after Thorin/Dain gets ring, option to recruit Dain will just unlock. ;)

Are we really talking about DurinxD

If you haven't browsed that thread yet, I then recommend you do it. We have tried to come up with the most diverse range of possibilities and debated the very legitimacy of his concept; on my side, I strived to detach Durin's presence in the faction completely from the One Ring, so that his role would symbolise more broadly the particular reincarnation-characterised lore of the Dwarves.

Another 'fundamental' great news: Durin took the lead in the poll  :D
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Linhir

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #13 am: 30. Sep 2016, 01:40 »
Yeah, sorry Walk, indeed I'm not up to date! I'll check out Durin's thread. ;)

Walküre

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #14 am: 30. Sep 2016, 07:02 »
Yeah, sorry Walk, indeed I'm not up to date! I'll check out Durin's thread. ;)

Nothing to apologise, Linhir. I was just redirecting you to a wider discussion. Even though it's quite unlikely, at this point, that we'll be able to see Durin in the game in the foreseeable future, I guess this topic is nonetheless worth being dealt with (unless opposite indications from the Edain Team).

By the way, welcome back to the forum  :)
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dkbluewizard

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #15 am: 18. Dez 2016, 20:04 »
I really feel Durin VII does need to be incorporated into Erebor and it might solve some of the issues that people have with Young and Old Dain II ringheroes.

Durin VII is alive in the Third Age, whether you want to consider him the son of Thorin III, Thorin III, or grandson of Thorin III is up to you.

Durin VII is alive for the following reasons:

1. He was predicted to be born at the Battle of Azanulbizar.

2. The Fourth Age is short for elves and dwarfs and is the dominion of man, Dwarfs have to reconquer Moria fast.

3. Dain II lived for 242 years and probably would have lived longer if he hadn’t been killed. Thorin III was born in 2866, going by Gimli’s birth in 2879 TA, which would put his father Gloin at 96 (Gloin was born in 2783 TA). So if we add this number to Thorin III this would make Durin VII born in 2962 and would put him in his 50’s during the time of Lord of the Rings—War of the Ring.

4. Durins are considered to be deathless—we see that Durin the deathless lives into the end of the 1st Age, Durin VI lives for 249 years but is then slain by the Balrog of Moria. So given the longevity of this elite line—this alone would suggest that Durin VII could have played a pivotal role in the Battle of Dale/Erebor during the events of the War of the Ring. Also, given that he is a descendent of Thorin III from the books—it makes sense to incorporate Durin VII as the son of Thorin III. Remember Durin VII proclaims himself Durin reborn in the 4th Age.

5. Durin VII would most likely be called Royal Anar or something, he is alive and is most likely the son of Thorin III and I will post the link here of the picture of his lineage chart:
http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/D%C3%BArin_the_Deathless

please see the lineage chart to the right.

I think all of this evidences the fact that Durin VII was alive during the time of the War of the Ring, but didn't call himself Durin VII, that is what the One Ring would do. It would make him Durin and allow him to proclaim himself early.
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Dez 2016, 21:46 von dkbluewizard »
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Dain@

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #16 am: 19. Dez 2016, 12:42 »
Hello !

And I have a question ??? Why is everyone so try to revive or restore Durin the game ??? For existing characters already so good (except for a few nuances), can add to the game better Thrór, Thráin and Nain ???

Walküre

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #17 am: 19. Dez 2016, 12:58 »
Why is everyone so try to revive or restore Durin the game ??? For existing characters already so good (except for a few nuances), can add to the game better Thrór, Thráin and Nain ???

The Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills are set during the events of the Hobbit, and Erebor during the War of the Ring. Thráin was incapacitated during the Hobbit (as he was caged and agonising in Dol Guldur) and the other two characters were long dead at that time.

Durin is a completely different matter: the whole reincarnation/rebirth element that permeates his lore allows us to propose a possible implementation in the game. Otherwise, there might be timeline contradictions.
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Dain@

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #18 am: 19. Dez 2016, 13:16 »
Then we can offer the concept according to which the receiving ring (no matter who Thorin or Dain), it brings together all the clans of gnomes under one arm to reconquer Moria and Erebor ??? It sounds more or less plausible, given the stubbornness of Dwarves, and the desire to regain the lost yarosnoe house!
By the way may be you will be interested ( https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34206.0.html )

dkbluewizard

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Re: Dwarven Ring Hero
« Antwort #19 am: 19. Dez 2016, 15:06 »
Well I strongly feel Durin VII would have to be the ringhero for Erebor during War of the Ring. Another reason is because King Dain II Ironfoot is offered Durin's ring of power by Sauron and rejects it--so I don't think he would have taken the ring like Galadriel.

Here is something, what if we had an option like Galadriel? If King Dain II accepts the ring, he becomes like Young Dain's ring abilities, if he rejects it, then he summons Durin VII who acts like Durin from previous patches. This ties all the lore together and shows us that Dain is more like the books, Durin is alive but proclaims himself early, and this pleases all parties as Lord Dain and King Dain's ring function is switched, Durin is implemented back into the game, and lore wise everything is canonical.

Let me know what you guys think.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.