About the Mass Slayers balancing

[dgsgomes]

It was said that Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel and WK (Angmar) - who is sort of a mass slayer as well - should not be buffed (mainly against single units) because that would make them OP, as they would have a bigger versatility. Well, I disagree.

All of them are supposed to be the strongest heroes of their faction (and are also 3000 cost heroes), but it is sad that sometimes they are weak or almost useless in some combat situations (especially Galadriel and WK), in which they lose even against very weak and cheap heroes.

Against the argument "but they cant have 'another hole', they are mass slayers already, and that would be OP", I'd like to point out Zaphragor, an excellent mass slayer, a great hero killer and also a pretty tanky hero! And, with all that, he is still pretty enjoyable to play with and against. Other examples are Legolas and Gimli - both are mass slayers but are also versatile in combat.

I really think that small changes would improve these heroes. Increasing slightly the damage or reducing slightly the cooldown of Saruman's and Gandalf's powers (as their stats are pretty balanced and as they are wizards, so their strenght should reside more on their powers - even against strong single units), giving WK a real weapon switch (just like the Dragon Slayer, without the need of a power which has to be recharged) and Galadriel an automatic stance switch which changes if she is fighting at range or fighting in close combat are some suggestions that would do the job very well, in my opinion .

Thank you for your attention

[Bogdan Hmel]

I completely agree

[Walküre]

I disagree with you about Galadriel.

Let's start with saying that I'm too in favour of giving her (in a hypothetical future) a very particular and unique stance system, useful in battle in short-ranged (thus dangerous) situations and absolutely fitting as a special feature for the faction's chief. Though, this is something I am personally intended to deal with not anytime soon, because there objectively are more daunting priorities at the moment. The proposal is nonetheless often in my mind, and I will certainly have the proper time to develop it with care 

Left aside the stance system (which, in my thoughts, would be 'just' an additional element rather than something that could define her role in a totally different way), I think it's a bit inaccurate implying that Galadriel should necessarily need more prominent mass-slayer properties. The reason is quite simple: Galadriel is everything but a mass slayer in her normal form. She was significantly modified in the Edain Mod 4.0 exactly to make her the supporting hero she's supposed to be by the lore and her own inner nature. Galadriel is primarily a Hero Supporter, with also prominent properties of a Building Destroyer (always in line with her character).

Her attack and her abilities were both consequently fashioned on that purpose: that is, making her extremely significant in supporting her faction with wisdom and Magic, remaining safely under the lines of her units. A fundamental pillar of Lothlórien's gameplay that is perfectly fulfilled by her powers (on top of all, her ranged attack and Nenya). She is now absolutely consistent with her true supporting spirit, and I have to say that it was indeed a valuable improvement from 3.8.1, where Galadriel was kind of affected by a general inconsistency caused by the ensemble of her mainly supportive abilities and her direct tank-like attack.

So, if granting Galadriel a unique stance system is meant to add something more to her already-solid concept, I'm not necessarily against it and I am more than willing to try to develop some ideas about it (that are totally yet to be defined). But the core points of your reasoning make everything sound as if Galadriel ought to be a mass slayer or have akin characteristics (meaning that you would be bound to operate a radical change also on her own abilities, if this is the aim) at all costs. I believe you had better not compare her to Gandalf, the Witch King and other heroes of the same kind; she's so different.

[matheussn]

+1 to dgsgomes

Agreed 

[Walküre]

As I previously wrote, if the aim is making her much more protected and enabling her to somehow have more chances of survival against heroes and monsters, I would be very glad to move to the main Galadriel thread and start developing my own ideas, with, hopefully, your and other people's help. What I see, instead, is that you do want to change radically her significant role, even though this doesn't refer to her very conceptual and proper abilities.

She is supposed to be a very strong and versatile hero, after all.

The problem is exactly that she is really not supposed to be a versatile hero, such as Elrond or Aragorn. That's why I think it's wrong inferring this property regarding her.

If your strategy consists of using her unguarded and alone against the enemy's ranks, this is exactly the opposite one should do. She necessarily needs to be surrounded by your own troops, in order to be able to cast her spells effectively and not to be vanquished by the opposing mass of units. Speaking about heroes, the facts that go against your suggestions are even much more evident and decisive. In case you wanted her to fight boldly against heroes and even kill them, you might be forgetting a not irrelevant aspect: there already is someone WELL capable of that, and it's Celeborn, the White Lord of Lothlórien and commander of the faction's military force 

Celeborn is so much effective in dealing with heroes, and he can also be used, at a certain extent, as a supporting figure for your own troops and as a tough warrior in very heated situations, might the circumstances require this (primarily thanks to some aspects of his own abilities). If you are acquainted with the previous Edain 3.8.1, you would know how Celeborn was immensely versatile and effective as a hero, to the point that he necessarily had to be modified and have his role be defined more clearly in the new Edain 4.0 for balance-related reasons. I remember he would do pretty much anything; he could kill heroes, he was a tank, a mass-slayer and he also had supporting enhancements and his leadership. He was everything 

Albeit having been properly adapted to the new mechanics, Celeborn is still well capable of facing the dangerous situations involving heroes and monsters you keep on relating to. I in fact personally find, in my own gaming experience, that the greatest combination you may dispose of is the exact combined usage of Haldir, Celeborn and Galadriel and your own units in battle, rather than using them separately. Haldir provides leadership and supporting features to your soldiers, Galadriel remains behind the lines to cast her powerful Magic and Celeborn intervenes against enemy heroes that might seek to attack the former two and thus disrupt your tactics. Having said this, no way is Galadriel supposed to counter both units and heroes in the way you suggested; her influence on her whole faction is much subtler and deeper, encompassing a wide range of factors and the specificity of her role.

Using the fact that you can't throw her at will against any army or hero is really a poor argument, in my opinion (although I recognise your sincere will of making her much more relevant in the game). This subtle and pervasive power of hers is what the lore exactly shows us in LOTR: she used her Magic to slow the flow of time in her realm and shield it from Sauron, she then headed out only at the last moment, throwing down the walls of Dol Guldur and purifying it (aspect already well present in the game with her Building Destroyer properties), after the armies of Mordor had already been vanquished by Celeborn and the Galadhrim under his command.

If you want to change Galadriel's role so radically, you necessarily have to change her abilities accordingly, lest her concept end up with being highly problematic and not worthy of her character as in the previous version of the Edain Mod.

[Joragon]

Galadriel is currently a real beast against masses of orcs etc. I think against them she is much better than Gandalf and she is not in the frontline so she won't die so fast. That's why it's pretty normal that she is in 1v1 much worse than Gandalf.

Lg
Joragon

[Walküre]

You might not want to directly change her role, dgsgomes, but your intentions do seem to go that way. If you desired her to be more effective against units and heroes, problematics about her overall role in the faction would then inevitably arise anyway. Not to mention, I strongly remark, that enemy heroes are really the least of her concerns and that Celeborn is exactly present to deal with this significant aspect.

As I already pointed out, she is not supposed to be versatile at all (unlike Elrond, Aragorn, Celeborn and many other ones) and she should always be used in combination with the other heroes and troops. I would never let her go after the enemy without the Lord of Lothlórien on her side or some guards. Not only will giving her more effectivenes in that sense be undoubtedly unbalanced, but it would also risk to recreate that unpleasant situation of 3.8.1; something not favourable at all. Galadriel's uniqueness relies exactly in her precious ranged and supporting abilities, that strictly depend on her own special attack (enabling her to remain behind safely). I guess you can't do without one of the two.

Given these elements, she is the only 3000-resource faction's chief solely focused on support. Comparing her case, even indirectly, to the one of the other heroes mentioned in your proposal is thus not appropriate, I would say. Sorry for having conveyed all my attention to Galadriel, but I really wanted to reaffirm her peculiar differences from the others (differences which I think you didn't consider properly in your suggestion) 

Putting her to fight 1x1 against these especific sorts of heroes would still result in a 3000 loss to the bad player.

But we shouldn't, in any way, adapt the mechanics of the game to the bad habits of the bad player, should we? 

[DrHouse93]

I really think that small changes would improve these heroes. Increasing slightly the damage or reducing slightly the cooldown of Saruman's and Gandalf's powers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the problem there is due to a bug, which doesn't increase the damage of the two wizards as they level up. It should be fixed in the next version

About the Witch-king, I agree that his role as a Mass Slayer should be more prominent (actually, Zaphragor covers that role much better), but I don't think that giving him a weapon toggle would be a solution. Maybe increasing his area of effects of normal attacks would be a nice improvement

ABOUT GALADRIEL

I must say that her role as a supportive hero (or a destroyer when she gets the Ring) is quite perfect. However, the fact that she can die against an ordinary Cave Troll or Gorbag is quite lame for her, being one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth

So, my solution would be to replace her stance-system with a special ability: activating it, it makes her switch to her "Terrible Form", where her role is more centered not on killing enemy heroes or single units, but rather weakening them and disrupting them. Why this?

Because we all know that Galadriel in the Third Age has some sort of "dark side", which shows up throughout her Terrible Form. Thanks to this, she can use her powers in a more darker way than the ordinary support: in fact, in her Terrible Form she was able to banish Sauron from Dol Guldur. But we also know that her Terrible Form is temporary. So, when she switches to her Terrible Form, she can't go back to her normal form immediately, but she will autonomously after some time (which becomes longer as she levels up) and, once returned to her ordinary form, she can't take her Terrible Form for the same amount of time

In her Terrible Form, her attacks will be centered on disrupting units and heroes. Therefore, she can't attack buildings, but her ordinary attacks now weaken struck enemies (similar to the Nazguls debuff) and will knock them down. Her abilities will be the following:

1. Gaze of Terrible Galadriel - ALL nearby units and heroes will have -10% damage and armor. Enemies struck by her ordinary attacks will be weakened by an additional -10% damage and armor malus, and will be knocked down. Passive ability
2. You have no power here! - Resets the counters of the chosen enemy hero's abilities to "just used" (same effect of the Witch-king's ability). Requires level 4
3. You are formless! - For a medium period of time, the chosen enemy hero will deal no damage. Requires level 7
4. Foundations of the earth - It summons a small earthquake on a nearby building. Galadriel's old classic. Requires level 9
5. Banishment - The chosen enemy hero will be instantly teleported to the closest allied base, and will be unable to do anything for an extended period of time. This ability has a long cooldown, and it's a mighty disrupting ability to compensate for not being able to use Nenya in her Terrible Form. Requires level 10

(Of course, using her abilities in her Terrible Form activates the cooldown of her ordinary abilities, too)

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SHE REJECTS THE RING?

Rather than her Terrible Form, she can switch to her Holy Form, mantaining the same effects and abilities, but with a different visual aspect (if previously her powers were due to her "dark side", now they're boosted by the Valar themselves). The only difference would be in the first ability, which will be the following:

1. Gaze of Holy Galadriel - All nearby enemies will be weakened by a -10% damage and armor debuff. Enemies struck will be weakened by an additional -10% and will also be knocked down. Allies in the radius of her attacks will be healed

All in all, the ability itself doesn't change so much, but given her increased stats from refusing the Ring, as well as the healing factor when there are allies close to her targets, will show even more the awesome powers of Galadriel

[lordoflinks]

Wow...
I agree with Dr.House.

[Walküre]

Such a very interesting development of this discussion 

First of all, it's correct, the scaling issue is a bug and it will be fixed in the next patch. If that is an important factor in the current performance of wizards and other heroes, it will thus well be solved in the future, without having the need to alter the mechanics of roles and powers of each faction's hero.

Said that, I regard DrHouse's proposal as a very promising concept, although this might still seem to be, in my opinion, an initial suggestion that necessarily needs to be developed further and progressively polished (as all suggestions meant to blossom in useful proposals). At the state of things, I will then illustrate a bit the base of my own proposal I referred to in my previous comments; something I had been planning to do for quite some time.

My concept is mainly fashioned on what we see in BOTFA, during the banishment of Sauron. A controversial interpretation that both received praises for being innovative and a lot of criticism for its evident grotesque (if not macabre) touch. Nevertheless, left aside film-related debates, my ideas are centred on that aspect: Seaweed Galadriel. A form and a display of power that neither represents the 'normal' nature of Galadriel, nor does it come close to her having accepted the One Ring and thus becoming the Dark Queen of Middle Earth. A truly 'medium' appearance between the White (normal) and the Darkness (Dark Queen); symbolising that, albeit the sacred prowess of the Lady of Light, she has not been tested yet and so maintains in her heart deep ambitions of power (what has characterised her since her departure from Aman for this very reason). Her renowned ambition is quite far to be evil (given that she doesn't seek power by violent and subduing means), but it undoubtedly holds something obscure and dark about it. As DrHouse already pointed out fairly: dark sides of her personality and inner might.

Regarding the conceptual structure itself of my proposal, Galadriel will have a very unique stance option, enabling her to take her Seaweed form for a limited amount of time (since BOTFA shows that she can't obviously keep that form for so long). In this form, while being unable to attack normally units and structures (and being slowed down a bit), she will have a negative aura effect (whose properties are obviously yet to be discussed and defined clearly) against both enemy units and heroes, interfering with their actions rather than assuring her concrete chances to defeat them (as proposed in the previous posts). In this momentary appearance, her usual Palantír will be disabled and what I came up with so far is granting her a sole single power that relates to her usage of her phial and the actual banishment. Maybe a great wide-ranged wave that makes everyone flee and momentarily disables heroes' abilities? These were my initial ideas; other additional powers could be proposed and added in the course of the discussion.

Both accepting and refusing the One Ring will cause her to necessarily lose this stance system. Especially, becoming Blessed leads her to renounce to her ambitions and she hands over the phial to Frodo. Therefore, I don't think that she needs a stance system at all after taking the One Ring, but I had honestly not thought about possible concepts for her blessed form yet; henceforth, proposing that kind of features may be an option too. The core reasoning is that this will give her the possibility to have some chances to block and avoid units and heroes in dangerous contexts, without altering and disrupting her coherent role so much. Galadriel is also, along with Sauron, one of the most prominent and iconic heroes in the game, and I thus sincerely believe that she greatly deserves such unique stance system as the Lord of Mordor's (with all the due differences).

IMPORTANT: This is the basic idea of mine. Nevertheless, this Galadriel-centred debate should now be dealt with in the main Galadriel thread in the Lothlórien Suggestions board, lest it, as I fear, divert so much attention from the very topic of this thread, that encompasses multiple and wider themes. I thus recommend everyone move to that specific space to develop the discussions much more freely and specifically.

P.S. The graphical concept/model that is hypothetically to be used for Seaweed Galadriel might be a problematic aspect to deal with, since many people didn't in fact appreciated PJ's interpretation. I can prove, though, with actual evidences, that her concept was not originally intended to be as grotesque as it eventually turned out to be 

[Walküre]

About Galadriel, she definitely needs some change

I think there could be some margins of manoeuvre to propose a decent concept about the matter, provided that all suggestions consist of valuable points, conceptual aspects and significant uniqueness; I moved the discussion in its proper place for this very reason, and you are obviously welcome to contribute in its development 

I would nonetheless remark again how the proposals presented refer to a relatively minor conceptual addition to her already well defined and coherent character. In other words: she doesn't need a radical overhaul for sure.