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Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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Walküre:
Greetings to anyone interested in the Dwarven matters of the lively and friendly Dwarven board. As I recently wrote and replied to some people both on ModDB and here, I believe it would be a great pity if Durin's concept (and the pivotal lore references it consists of) were ultimately removed completely from the game.

The main reasons that justified the choice for the Dáin/Thorin Ring concept are more than agreeable and comprehensible indeed; and I pointed out this quite exhaustively in a comment of mine about this very topic (you can also track the following debate from this post). Now, the Dwarves are undoubtedly much more consistent in lore accuracy than they were before, and they can finally make usage of the One Ring in a definitely more logical and rational context which the current what-if scenario exactly provides.


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  6. Aug 2016, 18:35 ---
--- Zitat von: Odysseus am  6. Aug 2016, 17:57 ---Technically speaking, both ring systems the Dwarves have currently had are blasphemous lore-wise, but I think, in the mentioned ''what if?'' scenario, the Dwarves making use of the ring is not out of the question, at least not as much as a ring that had absolutely no ties to the father of the Dwarves whatsoever and that would revive him still :D.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I agree with you on this aspect; also, I would even dare to say that it was indeed a matter of lore too. As you wrote correctly, the previous and the current Ring concepts are probably not the easiest choices to handle, and they have certainly sparked a bit of disapproval among the Community then and now. But, in retrospect, as much as the previous concept was a very innovative feature, it was undoubtedly the most lore-blasphemous of the two: reviving such mythical Dwarven character via such evil means, while the Dáin/Thorin option surely gives you more 'speculative liberty' as a legitimate what-if scenario (just like Théoden).

Not to mention the whole renewal of the whole Ring system in the game, that exactly gave the developers technical justified reasons for replacing the old mechanics. I too believe it was rather a bold choice to make, and I'm sure that it will nonetheless give the very Edain Mod more consistency in lore-related terms (even if the past concept was not so manageable to get rid of). This is something I in fact wanted all the people complaining on ModDB to understand; with quite some difficulty, I have to admit  :D

Nevertheless, I would also like to underline the just remark of Dáin about the huge importance that Durin had in the game and still has for the entire Dwarven culture. As my hints above suggested, I guess the character really deserves to be part of the faction anyway, and what I deem a possible proper place could be the spellbook. The citadel spell has too its pivotal role in the Dwarven gameplay, but a more 'political answer' might be held in higher consideration than pure gameplay: that is, the will of preserving such iconic hero as Durin is.

I would say there is a very favourable ground to establish a new discussion in regards of this said topic; it would be interesting to see a thread being developed and conceiving constructive suggestions in the meantime. Probably, on the eve of a future overhaul of each faction's spellbook, we might now be at a turning point for making such proposals  ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

On the present structure, thus, we find ourselves with a renewed system with its own relative innovative aspects; on the other hand, the legendary figure of the Dwarves' forefather is no more something belonging to the Mod (and, unless the Edain Team has other plans, it seems that the mythical hero is eventually destined to be remembered as one of the many old surpassed concepts of the past).

Since we, as a Community, often managed to find reasonable compromises and alternative solutions for critical situations, I really hope we will too succeed in bringing Durin back in the game; not only as a smart feature itself, but primarily as a fundamental symbol of the Dwarven lore in the history of Arda and of the iconic resurrection theme that characterises wholly this race's true essence (as immortality does in regards of the Elves). On the matter, instead of improbable suggestions that contemplate him as a regular hero, I rather thought about what could be the wisest start to begin with: implementing Durin via the spellbook as an ultimate spell, and replacing the current citadel summoning spell.

In my personal opinion, ultimate spells represent the most profound nature and might of each faction's lore, and they are exactly fashioned accordingly: Gondor's Oathbreakers are inexorably bound to the authority of the legitimate heir of the Númenórean kingdoms and legacy itself in Middle-earth, Rohan's military camp portrays the peculiar horse-motive of the faction's warfare, Isengard's two ultimate spells are centred on industry/militarism and on the terrible devices that derive from it, Mordor can restore the ancient powers of Sauron in line with the Maia's consolidated lore in Arda's events, Lothlórien calls for the aid of the legendary Mariner and his holy light (a Silmaril) in time of need, Angmar's stronghold of the Iron Crown retrieves the remembrance of Carn Dûm's eerie rule and Imladris can dispose of the Last Alliance (and its legendary leaders) that once saved Middle-earth from the dominion of the Dark Lord. That said, wouldn't a legend as Durin be perfectly suitable for the immensely significant task of symbolising the highest and most majestic side of the Dwarves' lore?  ;)

Certainly, this is more an initial input to the debate that I wish it were developed from now on. Details, numbers and also counter-arguments are certainly yet to be discussed properly and taken into consideration very carefully. But, I am nonetheless resolved to campaign for Durin to remain part of the Edain Mod and I'm confident that you too will express your own thoughts too. I will also open a poll, but just to do a little survey about the general feeling towards this proposal; thus, the poll won't encompass detailed and defined concepts  :)

DrHouse93:
I am quite fine on the system developed right now by the team. I mean, I never had anything against Durin, but I also don't miss him at all, right now. The main reasons why I'd prefer things to remain the way they are are:

1. Even if he's the Forefather of the Dwarves, Durin is long-time dead at the time of the WOTR. And while the Dwarves believe he reincarnates in any Dwarf whose name is Durin, the concept is mainly centered on the current Durin having aspects of his ancestor's appearance and personality, but not being Durin the Deathless himself (keep in mind that for the same reasons I don't like so much the Last Alliance spell, while being really iconic, it's also kinda lame that Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion live again for a bunch of seconds and fight again in Middle-earth. They could be of course special features of some special maps)

2. I largely prefer Thorin and the Dains as Ringheroes, because they are well-known characters with deep personalities, while about Durin we just know his name. So, in a what-if scenario, I'd greatly prefer to see what could have happened if Thorin/Dain found the One Ring, driving him mad and incredibly increasing his greed/pride, rather than having Durin magically back on the battlefield (furthermore thanks to an Evil artifact. Since the Ring contains the soul of Sauron, why should he bring back the Forefather of the Dwarves?)

3. The citadel also represents one of the core aspects of the Dwarves, this being their craftmanship, which, if I'm not mistaking, can be compared to the one of the Noldors and the Numenoreans. Plus it's an incredibly useful defensive building (especially considering that Dwarven towers have a far more smaller range than ordinary defensive towers). I think the Earthquake is more inappropriate, because while being iconic to the faction, I also think it's kinda lame the Dwarves can conjure earthquakes out of thin air (heroes and siege engines are ok, but a sudden earthquake which destroys half of your base, occurring for no reason, it's not so entertaining)

Odysseus:
Hmm, it is tough to say for me. To be fair, just like the Last Alliance spell and the Powers of Past Ages for Sauron, there are quite a bit of these elements that do not fit the timeline of Edain mod at all, yet they are iconic in what kind of gameplay elements they provide.

As you know Walk, I have already expressed my thoughts on the lore-related arguments, and I would like to add that Durin really only fit with the old concept, where Dwarves being hewn out of stone by Aüle, was referenced by reviving Durin out of a stone statue, but since Ring Heroes have to pick up the ring themselves (Quite a big gameplay shift), this is no longer relevant, I'm afraid.

I only voted no because I have no idea where to put him. I can only imagine some kind of campaign addition or some scenario pack that someone will probably eventually make. The Dwarven Spellbook is very solid at the moment, in my opinion, and I'd not like a Durin summon to go there. Furthermore, when you gift the majority of his abilities over to the current faction leaders, which keeps his gameplay elements in the game, you basically only remain with his appearance, and that would feel too much like adding for the sake of adding, if you understand what I am trying to say.

If we do add him in a 10 PP spell. what exactly would it look like? I think the Citadel summon spell is much more unique, and now more useful too thanks to the recent price reduction of the expansion catapults. I am not sure what another Hero Summon would truly provide to the faction, unless it'd be made very unique, but I have no idea how this would be done.

Edit: DrHouse93 makes some solid points. I'd like to show my support and approval for them as well.

Walküre:
Thank you both DrHouse and Odysseus, for having participated and provided constructive arguments. If only half of the criticism I got throughout ModDB had been as rational and as logical as yours...  xD

1. As I wrote, I too agree that the new Ring system is way more acceptable in lore terms and absolutely much more coherent: that is, I have no problem with it. That's why I proposed a different implementation of Durin, that wouldn't thus have anything to do with the One Ring anymore and could finally find its proper place exactly as an ultimate spell worthy of representing such pivotal aspects of the renowned Dwarven culture.

2. I know, most of the ultimate spells that I brought as examples are total contradictions of Tolkien's sources. Nevertheless, as much as you may surely know how 'strict' and focused I too am regarding lore matters in the game, it's also true that not everything in the Mod can objectively respect every single of those boundaries, lest the game itself suffer greatly from the loss of many smart and extremely iconic features. There has to be a balance of some sort, and this is exactly the path that the Edain Team, I imagine, decided to eventually follow (even if that meant sacrificing something in terms of lore accuracy). My suggestion thus refers to ultimate spells only, as they in fact are the sole element of each faction to somehow have the 'right' to contrast with the pure lore for higher purposes.

In light of the points above, I have the feeling that it will be quite decisive to determine whether Durin should be a temporary or permanent summon; and I'm starting to get closer to the former option (avoiding thus possible balance and technical issues we might face). Also, a temporary design may give people the sense of that constant renewal motive/cycle, which is inherently connected to the said reincarnation theme, much more effectively. Furthermore, I agree with the interpretation you follow, DrH, but it's even possible to look at the whole specificity of Durin's properties in another deeper and more comprehensive way: as far as I know (unfortunately, I have to admit that I'm not as acquainted with the Dwarven lore as I am with its Elven counterpart), Dwarves do have the possibility to reincarnate long after their death. The souls of the Dwarves are bound to linger forever in the Halls of Mandos (and can't obviously be readmitted again in Valinor in new bodies as the Elves), but they nonetheless can hope to be reincarnated and thus inhabit new Dwarven bodies (destined to become again noble heroes in the mortal World).

3. The citadel spell doesn't displease me that much, as I said, nor do I think that it doesn't have its own logic to be in the game. But it also never really convinced me fully of its real value in the Dwarven spellbook; at least, that iconic value I see in ultimate spells as the Last Alliance or Power of Past Ages. In addition, the great Dwarven mastery of craftsmanship is well pervasively displayed via their significantly robust structures and the diversified defensive features they already have at hand. At this point though, I think it's not really a matter of gameplay utility, but rather a kind of 'political choice' to restore such mythical character for the Dwarves or to stick to the current state of things.

Besides, I'm really happy to debate this topic with you and, in case there weren't favourable responses, to at least ensure that an interesting yet fruitful discussion takes place among the Edain Community  :)

P.S. DrH=DrHouse (I think I found a new nickname, with a more intriguing and mysterious touch)  :P

Fredius:
First of all, let me say that I have nothing against Durin, he seems like a nice guy :P. However in the current mechanics of the mod I don't really see a way to include him into the faction. The Ring system is not an option anymore, so I won't talk about that. This leaves us 2 options: either Durin can be recruited, or he can be summoned.

I personally am not fond of the idea of recruiting him, because that option is like spitting on the lore, no matter how or where he can be built. The ability to recruit him is like him being resurrected, and I can't imagine how one can resurrect a dead Dwarven King in the LOTR universe. Perhaps find some DNA of him, and sacrifice a random Dwarf to resurrect him via Edo Tensei (Naruto fans will know :D)?

This leaves us with the ability to summon him via a hero's ability or the spellbook. I don't think any hero has the capability to resurrect Durin, so I won't cover that, so I think the spellbook would indeed be the best option. Personally I'm quite satisfied with the current spellbook; especially with the last tier powers.  While the Earthquake is a great offensive spell, the Citadel is a great defensive spell. It really compliments each other, and replacing one of them with a random Dwarven hero kinda ruins it imo.

The spell that is most suited to be replaced would imo be the Gandalf summon. Both Gandalf and Durin have strong abilities, thus replacing Gandalf won't change much on the balance matter. However, I personally would prefer Gandalf over Durin, because Gandalf played a big role for the Dwarves in the THIRD age, while Durin had his time in the First Age. I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

TL;DR I have nothing against adding Durin to the mod, but right now I can't seem to find a way to add him without making it too inappropriate. Thus I have voted for No.

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