[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Durin's fate in the Edain Mod

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Elite KryPtik:
I have never really liked the concept of Durin being revived myself. I think the current concepts of Thorin and Dain being driven mad with greed and pride is much more suiting and appropriate to the RIng.

As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

The only place I could see him fitting in, in terms of normal gameplay, would be a new level 10 summon of a Hero, as they could be having a new son, which is the reincarnation of Durin. Even this, however; is extremely farfetched and grasping-at-straws in nature. So overall, no, I think Durin should remain out of the normal game, and be added to special maps and campaigns.

Odysseus:
I find myself in Elite's critical and ultimately true response. I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.

kingsjewel:
Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.

Walküre:
I just made further researches on Durin and the relative reincarnation theme lying behind his legend. Unfortunately, I didn't find direct evidences of the real future of the Dwarven souls in the Halls of Mandos, thus making any statement about it too risky to be considered more accurate than a speculation (actually, it seems that Tolkien himself has never really given a clear answer too, resulting in this aspect to be even more obscure). Left such metaphysical speculations aside, Durin do live in the legends of the Dwarves as one of the first forefathers and the Dwarves themselves believed that he would have reincarnated seven times before the decline of Arda and the very End; as Elite wrote, the last one is exactly thought to have appeared in the Fourth Age, not long after the War of the Ring.

Apart from Tolkien's precise description of this said motive, the actual proof consists of the fact that every presumptive reincarnation of Durin became leader/king of his people and was author of remarkable deeds. Therefore, to polish the concept a bit, if Durin were really to be summoned, he would be the first and 'real' Durin I: the greatest of the Dwarven forefathers, awoken in the ancestral Years of the Trees and attributed to have lived more than 2000 years (immensely longer than the average Dwarven lifespan), thus receiving the title of 'Deathless'. Said that, the spell would then summon Durin I and him only, as the mightiest of Aulë's creations and the most known of the Dwarves since the oldest tales.


--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am  8. Aug 2016, 20:22 ---As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

--- Ende Zitat ---


--- Zitat von: Odysseus am  8. Aug 2016, 20:52 ---I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Resolved the 'seventh reincarnation' issue (thanks to Elite for having brought it out and so given me the possibility to clarify the proposal even more), I would like to address the whole lore-contrast at the heart of some of your remarks (akin to the quotations I chose to quote). May I say this quite directly: they would be absolutely valid points in other debates concerning other different issues, but, inserted into the specific context I tried to create, I believe they are instead quite invalid and inappropriate to argue about.

I mean, in such lore terms of the kind you used, there is very little 'argumentative ground' on which we could provide positive or negative arguments and then hope to come to a just conclusion. As I wrote in my previous replies, I too fully agree with you that those spells are outright violations of the simplest lore boundaries; but, I would also really like you to understand that they are ultimate spells endowed with peculiar properties: that is, they provide the game with the most unique features and bring successfully into the game the best elements of their faction's own lore and essence. In doing so, they don't respect the lore and have a good deal of justified reasons to do so. They are kind of extreme exceptions that nonetheless add to the Edain Mod a certain type of uniqueness value; something that would otherwise be not possible at the same extent, and not without making the general game experience eventually poorer.

You could certainly be entitled to question their actual presence in the game, and we could start a thread about it in the future. Nevertheless, at the current state, the legendary forefather of the Dwarves, who lived millennia before, being magically summoned out of thin air wouldn't be more inappropriate than the Last Alliance troops alongside their commanders, than Eärendil suddenly appearing on the battlefield upon Vingilótë (when he is supposed to guard the outer skies of Arda in eternity) and than Sauron/Gorthaur gleefully walking around with all his past powers of shape-shifting and black Magic unspoiled (as nothing really happened in the previous 6000 years).


--- Zitat von: Fredius am  8. Aug 2016, 19:40 ---I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

--- Ende Zitat ---

In my opinion, what Tolkien meant with reincarnation has a very subtle aspect: not such complete and immediate reincarnation, but rather incredible virtues and the formidable strength (even past remembrances?) of one soul that pass into another new soul within a given (long, usually) period of time. The Elves may be reincarnated, but it's quite a different matter; those who find again peace in the Halls of Mandos can gain back their physical bodies and be readmitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor (but Valinor only). As far as I know, Ilúvatar is not involved in this process and everything is left to the Valar's judgement.

I guess the Valar too could have revived Gandalf and restored his powers, with that, though, taking considerable time and efforts (as an injured Maia can recover only after centuries, should its physical body be destroyed). Eru's intervention made everything immediate, for Gandalf was revived completely and granted even greater powers; in perfect time to accomplish his mission: saving Middle-earth  8-)


--- Zitat von: kingsjewel am  8. Aug 2016, 22:11 ---Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Nothing to worry about. If you manage to provide valuable arguments to your position, you can continue to discuss this proposal anytime you want to  :)

Elite KryPtik:
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUAL Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.

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