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Umfrage

Does Durin deserve to remain part of the Edain Mod?

Yes, he's an iconic mythical figure and he deserves to remain part of the Edain Mod
No, he doesn't have any place left in the Edain Mod after the overhaul of the Dwarven Ring system

Autor Thema: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod  (Gelesen 10428 mal)

Odysseus

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #15 am: 9. Aug 2016, 16:46 »
I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in a useful manner in multiplayer.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Aug 2016, 21:46 von Odysseus »
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Walküre

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #16 am: 9. Aug 2016, 19:19 »
I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in useful manner in multiplayer.

Fair enough then. From my side, I believe I already presented my ideas quite exhaustively and provided the constructive arguments needed to back my thesis properly. Since I am now focused on another project that requires my attention, I don't think I will intervene further in this discussion; the proposal itself still lacks a detailed design and actual numbers, but I exactly established this thread so that it encompassed a very widened theme (not a specific suggestion, but rather a general debate about Durin's future in the Edain Mod). My purpose was doing a little survey of the Community's thoughts and putting forward the sincere reasons of uniqueness I consider vital for the iconic Durin to remain in the game (in place of the citadel spell, if it's possible).

Obviously, should anyone have other proposals or remarks to do to enrich the debate, the topic will be nonetheless open to ensure this. Probably, I guess it would be really helpful if we managed to receive an answer from the Edain Team as soon as possible, just to draw a definitive line on the matter (in case Durin's concept were really to be gone forever from the game).

I really want to thank all of those who participated actively and, most importantly, constructively to this thread, exposing their own relative arguments and counter-arguments. I feel this discussion is probably one of the many of this forum that ought to be brought as an example of how one should establish a debate and lead it successfully  :)
Che solo amore e luce ha per confine

Fredius

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #17 am: 9. Aug 2016, 19:59 »
While the spell is in action, I guess the very Vingilótë does appear in the battlefield, as you can also manoeuvre it and the actual model of the ship exactly says that it's Eärendil's enchanted vessel. But even if that weren't the case, the light of Eärendil would never display itself in such fashion (as its only radiant fragment on Middle-earth is captured in Galadriel's phial, and the Mariner won't come down to Arda until the End). Regarding Sauron, he did die in a sense, as his physical body was destroyed by the cataclysm caused by the wrath of Ilúvatar; any Maia who is violently deprived of its physical appearance will inevitably face the loss of some of its powers too. It's quite an inevitable law of Arda, and Tolkien made it very clear that Sauron could have never recovered and retrieved his past might again (particularly, the ability of shape-shifting at a major extent and the ability to appear in a very fair form). That is, the spell is nonetheless a clear violation of the lore, and there is not something more to add about it, in my opinion.

What everyone seems to forget is the fact that all those characters/powers you have mentioned are already a part of the spellbook. They have been thought of carefully, and are essential to the gameplay of said factions. However, if we look at Durin, he was JUST a ringhero. A ringhero is an addition that can be chosen to be included through the skirmish menu, which means that a ringhero is not a necessity for the Dwarven faction. Unlike the Gorthaur or Last Alliance spell, which are always part of the spellbooks of their corresponding factions, since you can't simply change a spellbook before a match. This is why Durin is not necessary to be included in the Dwarven faction, because he already never was actually a "part" of it, if you get my meaning. Replacing a, imo very handy, spell like the Citadel or Earthquake with Durin, just for the sake of adding him like Odysseus beautifully said, is not a good thing imo.

Also Walk, next time I think it would be best not to include a poll at all, even if it is only to measure the general feelings of the community about the proposal. As you can see there are more people who vote for including Durin, but only people who are against adding him write their arguments. I believe many fans think that only voting for "Yes" or "No" will make any difference, and won't even bother to read the first post, or write arguments against the opponents. Right now it feels like that the only ones in this debate who are in favor of including him is you, who has to counter the arguments of all us "haters" [ugly].


Also while on the topic of Ring Heroes what is the current word on the Dain dilemma, because at the moment it feels like Old Dain is leading the Iron hills and Young Dain is leading Erabor.

This is actually off-topic. It would be better to write a different thread about this.

Walküre

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #18 am: 9. Aug 2016, 22:00 »
I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.

Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

Believe me, I had really just purposes in establishing a poll and I am absolutely aware of the problematics that can consequently arise. Also, I am very acquainted with polls and their inner risks for the fact that polls themselves have been under discussion among Moderators and Administrators, and, as it was already stated, we decided to keep an eye on this feature and to intervene if they had been evidently misused for the most diverse reasons. I can assure you that this is not the case  ;)

The past 'poll-degeneration' consisted of people just abruptly throwing around multiple ideas (very detailed yet improbable) and presenting them as actual poll options, when they should have discussed them before; or using the poll's result as an actual point/argument to use in the debate. I have done none of that. I made it clear from the beginning that it was just a means to gather information about the general feeling, and no way did I ever present it as a favourable argument in my replies. Of course, it's always great if a thread attracts more and more users (and I tried to encourage them as much as my possibilities permitted me), but it's not something that always happens, nor do I have the power to bind them to do so.

I'm sure that more people agree with me and more others don't. The thread will remain open, as I wrote, hoping that new opinions might come in time. The poll had nonetheless just that purpose, and if there are people that just voted positively and flew away, other ones did the same on the opposite side. I know that it can be hard, but sometimes polls need to be treated with extreme patience and good sense  :P

P.S. That forces me to wonder what would have happened in case of a negative majority  :D
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Fredius

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #19 am: 9. Aug 2016, 23:17 »
I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.

Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

No, that's not what I meant with my post. I'm aware of the amount of work that ET put into the Ring system, and I really admire their work. I wanted to explain to you why spells like Gorthaur or the Last Alliance can't be compared with what Durin as a ringhero was in terms of gameplay, and why it's invalid to remove an ultimate spell just for him. I will try to explain my point in a different way; the current spellbooks are all made in a way that complements with what the faction needs, and to ensure your victory in a match. However, the whole Ring system is just a choice, you can enable/disable the ring system in the skirmish menu, thus Gollum will never appear, and you will never get the bonusses that come with capturing the Ring. That's why the whole Ring system is not a necessity, because you can just play without it, and that's why Durin himself was never a necessity, because the Dwarven faction doesn't necessarily need him to win a match. Even with the Ring system enabled you won't always be able to build him if the enemy captures the Ring.

My point is that the current ultimate spells have already been integrated so well into the Dwarven faction, that they serve their role perfectly during a match. Replacing one of them with Durin, who was just a ringhero before, will disrupt this balance; that's why I don't think it is worth it to remove one of them for Durin, just for the sake of "adding him", not in terms of lore, but in terms of gameplay.

When writing this post I got a bit more curious about Durin, so I went and searched some info about him from tolkiengateway. After reading the article I started to doubt what value he could even have for the Dwarves. He was the oldest of the 7 fathers of the Dwarves, he erected the city of Khazad Dum, named some mountains and hills... and? Yes, that's about it; apart from those things he was just a Dwarven king, nothing else really :S. So why is he soo important to add to the faction, while he didn't even do anything in particular that made him stand out from the other Dwarven kings? I read the whole thread again just to find an argument in terms of lore which supports the importance of adding him to the faction, but the only thing I could find is that he is the oldest creation of Aule, and the fore-father of the Dwarves. That is not special enough to add him imo. Sauron's Gorthaur form has a vast arrange of powers that are tied to the lore, the Last Alliance spell gives us the chance to play with the heroes who defeated Sauron, but what did Durin do exactly?

P.S. It seems that I quoted one of your comments in my post before Walk, because I wanted to reply to it, but then decided not to. However I forgot to remove the quoted comment from the post, which makes it look like I replied on that particular comment :D. I removed the quote from the post.

kmogon

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #20 am: 9. Aug 2016, 23:53 »
I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it .Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies . Secondary I don't think that dwarven fortres as much usefull . His Low health and cost of uprages just make  him easy to destroy.

And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Aug 2016, 23:58 von kmogon »

Walküre

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #21 am: 10. Aug 2016, 00:11 »
It really seems that this thread is really doing everything to trap me eternally in this topic (and the fact that I opened it in the first place doesn't help either)  xD

No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

Unfortunately, I couldn't expand the reincarnation issue further, as it seems to be a very obscure theme in Tolkien's lore. If anyone has additional and more precise lore data, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and to correct my proposal (just like Elite brought out that fair 'seventh reincarnation' argument). Regarding my remarks on those spells, they were primarily meant to counter Elite's considerations on lore accuracy. I stick to my opinion that Durin as a spell would be equally unique and suitable as the Last Alliance Spell or Power of Past Ages; and those two spells are probably the proof that, sometimes, lore or uniqueness must be held in higher consideration than gameplay and vice versa (in order to add definitely more to the game).

Your points referring gameplay are indeed valuable and valid, Fredius. I'm not displeased at all to get such criticism, because it's absolutely constructive and I established the thread myself to also seek for other people's thoughts. Only, my instinct tells me that Durin would eventually be worth being implemented again (not necessarily via the spellbook, if someone comes up with other reasonable solutions)  :)

I'm really flattered, but don't mind me at all; Moderators are exactly supposed to lead discussions and take a prominent role in debates (obviously expected to withstand counter-arguments too). As for the poll, even in the most favourable scenario, it's quite unlikely that the votes would ever correspond to the people who actually took time to participate actively in the forum. It's a kind of inexorable fact one should simply accept: hard life of a Moderator  :D

As I previously wrote, this may be my last post in dealing with this thread. I really invite anyone interested in it to express itself and so provide other material to discuss about.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Aug 2016, 00:16 von DieWalküre »
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Fredius

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Aug 2016, 00:20 »
I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it.

Well i'm not saying they should throw the whole model out of the mod itself, it can be a map-only feature or something. Durin is a very old asset, possibly from the days Edain just started, and there are plenty of old assets that aren't being used anymore. However many old assets can still be found in worldbuilder, so I guess he might end up that way too, if the team won't use him for the faction itself.

Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies.

Ofcourse he has a great influence on Dwarven culture, but that's the only reason people want to add him. What other values does he have apart from the title of being the first Dwarf ever made? That is imo not a good reason to add a character to a faction. Might as well add Eorl the Young as Elite said, since he is seen the same way by the Rohirrim as Durin is for the Dwarves. Let this remain Edain Mod please, not Necromancer Mod :P.

And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .

I think this would be the best compromise if people want to add him, great thinking!

EDIT: Walk I will put my reply to your last post in a minute here, it won't be big as I don't want you to get stuck into this thread if you don't want to xD.

________________________ ________________________ ____________________

No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

Well my question about the lore wasn't a direct lash at you or something. I'm just very curious why Durin, in terms of lore, should be in the mod, when he hasn't done anything special apart from being the "first born" of the Dwarves. I also read in the article in tolkiengateway that it is not even sure that he reincarnated; his children just had similair appearance and behavior, that's why they "thought" he reincarnated to his children.

Tolkien didn't describe any specific powers that he had, unlike Gorthaur or Galadriel, so I have the feeling that he won't have the destructive abilities that can make him worth a 10pp spell, without sacrificing the lore aspect. I'm not critizing here, just curious, because my knowledge of the lore only goes this far :P.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Aug 2016, 00:33 von Fredius »

SP19XX

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #23 am: 25. Nov 2016, 22:53 »
So having a quick read through this topic I can understand where people are coming from Lore wise in regards to there being no direct confirmation of Durin actually reincarnating as opposed to it being more of an inheritance of similarities through his direct heirs however I agree in the regards that Durin should still remain as a part of the Dwarven faction.

While it might not be a guaranteed fact that he did reincarnate it is the most common belief and thus in itself a display of faith from the dwarves that even beyond death their forefather will return to them when the need presents itself the most throughout the span of time and I feel that should be taken into account when considering this.

In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged. What if Thorin / Dain upon collecting the ring for themselves were given the ability to access the old ring hero function thereupon taking the ring to a statue of Durin giving up their benefits in exchange for reviving their forefather as the ring hero or having them sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their kin (dying in order to revive Durin - perhaps this could be a spell that replaces the Forges of Aule in their palantirs, where those two sacrifice themselves and Durin the Deathless arrives in their place and the ring is passed down to him in that method). This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

While those methods might seem a bit impractical and could be altered to fit a bit better I don't think Durin should be removed entirely but should be an effective secondary choice of Ring Hero (given that most factions barring a few have two potential candidates / options for the ring).

Walküre

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #24 am: 7. Dez 2016, 02:45 »
In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged.

[...]This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

In my opinion, sticking to the points made in the previous passages, a merged system of two different Ring systems would be objectively too much complicated; intricate mechanics ought to remain rare exceptions, as they might result in boring/frustrating people instead of pleasing them. Concerning the choice aspect, that would probably contrast with another Ring system of the game, which is unique exactly for this quality: Galadriel's acceptance or refusal of the One Ring.

Nevertheless, I would still suggest the whole involvement of the One Ring be completely set aside from this proposal. The reasons why I envisaged that are both conceptual and technical; I guess one can easily collect them via browsing the comments of this thread. As the forthcoming 4.5 patch is being developed, I'm more and more doubting that Durin will ever return in the Mod. My will to see him back again is nonetheless well alive. Unless opposite pronouncements, I believe the discussion may continue without any problem. Were someone to share additional ideas, I would be much interested to know them.
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dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #25 am: 31. Mai 2017, 20:58 »
Hey Diewalkure and many members. I remember actually posting something regarding Durin a long time ago. So concerning the three dwarf ringheroes: Thorin II, Lord Dain and King Dain. Here are my following suggestions and feel free to build upon them.

Thorin II: Keep ringhero function as is.
Lord Dain: Takes the Ring for himself, has the current King Dain's ring abilities.
King Dain: Since he is wiser, more mature, and it states in the lore that he rejected Sauron's offer of Thror's ring, I would suggest to give him a dual choice like Galadriel.

1. King Dain accepts the ring and gains ring hero stats like what Lord Dain has now (moves slow, invulnerable near buildings, etc.
2. King Dain REJECTS the Ring, thus giving it to Thorin III's son (Durin VII) who uses the One Ring to channel his ancestor's spirit unto himself. Thus Durin VII is proclaimed and may play as originally intended (with a few tweaks of course).

I feel this concept for the Dwarfs is more canonical because:

1. King Dain rejected Durin III's Ring in the books.
2. Lord Dain is much more impertinent and rage filled and not the methodical leader as he is by WOTR.
3. Thorin III's ancestor that rules after him is Durin VII.
4. Durin's have extremely long lifespans and the 4th age is not that long (also called the dwelling of men), Durin VII (whatever real name he has) would have to be alive by the time of WOTR.
5. Durin's are reincarnated, so for Thorin III's son having all the abilities and memories of all seven Durin's would help him in warding off the evil affects of the Ring.
6. This offers a solution to the Durin dilemma and everyone gets what they want.
7. It is the most canoncial and it works.

So if you are in favor of seeing Durin return via this way let the community, ET, and all of us know. As always, it is my pleasure to confer with Diewalkure and others as well as share my ideas. Thank you.

dkbluewizard.
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Julio229

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #26 am: 31. Mai 2017, 21:39 »

Really like this, I'm on board! It is canonical, reverts the Dain dilemma (with the change in both of Dain's Ring Hero palantirs. I think his normal abilities should be reversed too) and gives a unique choice to King Dain to restore Durin!

Great idea!


dkbluewizard

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #27 am: 4. Jun 2017, 01:39 »
Thank you very much Julio, I am glad you liked that idea. The other possible idea is that we have Durin VII actually be another hero for Erebor, and choose to either give him the One Ring or King Dain.

Since ET is picky about heroes, maybe my first idea was the best. Thank you for your support anyways, it is much appreciated.
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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #28 am: 4. Jun 2017, 10:07 »
I like the idea  :) however there is a problem imo. In this way erebor would be the only faction who can summon Durin and maybe the player would be more forced to choose the faction for this reason. I would like to find a more wide concept involving alle the three realms if is it possible.

lordoflinks

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Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
« Antwort #29 am: 4. Jun 2017, 11:09 »
May I put forward my suggestion again of replacing the Earthquake spell with summoning Durin, and giving him the aoe earthquake spell as an ability.
I see no reason to included Durin in the ring hero mechanics.
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