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Conversations in Doriath: Discussion and Feedback von Walküre am 13 Sep, 2016 00:03
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This is the relative discussion topic of the soon-to-be-established game that concerns the canonical and pivotal conversations between Galadriel and Melian, while the former was a guest of Elwë and the Maia in Doriath, the millenary guarded realm of Beleriand.
After a first visit, Galadriel was mesmerised by the hidden and protected essence of that legendary realm, whose those said properties would later be recognisable both in Lothlórien (magical defence) and in the Halls of Thranduil (hidden halls and caverns); she also got very much enchanted by the powers of Queen Melian and her sacred rule over her people. These were the main reasons of the Noldorin princess' decision to stay in Doriath as a stable guest (she would also have her first encounter with Celeborn too, being him a Sindarin prince at the court of the king). Unlike the Houses of Fëanor and Fingolfin, the sons of Finarfin were friendly welcomed due to their common blood ties with the Sindarin royal family: Finarfin's spouse is Eärwen, daughter of Elwë's brother Olwë (king of the Teleri of Alqualondë).
The conversations of such two mighty characters were always wide-ranging and deeply emotional, encompassing both the sad fate of the Noldor in Middle-earth and their memories of their past in Valinor. The farsighted Maia had realised, in time, that Galadriel and the Noldor as a whole were carrying a heavy burden, and so she managed to have the princess of Tirion tell her about the darkening of the Blessed Realm, the theft of the Silmarils and the Noldor's arrival in Middle-earth to reclaim them. Galadriel, though, had not had the heart to reveal the other obscure side of the story which referred to the infamous Kinslaying and the consequent Noldor's exile from Aman. That aspect would be unveiled after some time, provoking the wrath of Thingol as he discovered that many of his own kin had been massacred by the madness of Fëanor. Galadriel would nonetheless be permitted to remain, given that her presence was source of appreciation and joy among the people of Doriath, and that she had by then become the beloved scholar of the Queen.
A Noldorin delegation is welcomed at the doors of Menegroth
Participants allowed: DieWalküre and Fine -
#1 von Fine am 13 Sep, 2016 10:37
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Alright, before we get startet we should gather up the facts we will need.
When the main host of the Noldor arrived, having crossed the Helcaraxë in the far North, the sun rose for the first time (thus, starting the First Year of the Sun, FA 1). I think we can safely set the first visit of Galadriel and her brothers to Doriath within the first years of the First Age. At that time, two battles had been fought in Beleriand, the most recent one being the one in which Fëanor perished. The forces of Angband are held back by the surrounding Noldor realms and the land is at peace.
Concerning the more practical matters: I do not yet know which role you, Walküre, would like to assign to me (though I have an elaborate guess in mind), but I'm fine with either choice. I think it would be best if you started the game with an introducing post, like you did with the White Council, to set the scene. Topics will come up as we get into the actual discussions, I'm sure. -
#2 von Walküre am 13 Sep, 2016 15:09
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Yes, I agree. We should start from the very first visit and then continue to explore Galadriel's long permanence in Doriath at the court of Thingol and Melian. If you share my view, I think you should pick up Melian's role. As much as I would love to play an Ainurin character, I am personally more acquainted with Galadriel's psychology and I really admire her 'wilder' characterisation back in the Elder Days (after her ambitious and fiery heart had led her to choose the exile from Aman).
I will then proceed with opening th new game as soon as I can do so. I would say that the first posts could relate to the two characters' thoughts; while Galadriel is riding to Doriath and Melian waiting for the guests (reminiscing some events or talking briefly to Elwë). Today I am a bit busy though, and it's also a quite interesting coincidence: I too have to pay a visit to my relatives, although not in Doriath of course
I'll see what I can do. It might be not before this evening or tomorrow
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#3 von VectorMaximus am 13 Sep, 2016 15:28
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I'm not sure I would be much use in this one walk. You know how my heart is tied far more closely to the Feanoreans and Fingolfineans than is perhaps good to play a role in this, being first and foremost concerning the Sindar and House of Finarfin. But if you have a part you want me to play, just tell me.
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#4 von Fine am 13 Sep, 2016 15:57
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I'll see what I can do. It might be not before this evening or tomorrow
There is no need to hurry, just do it when you get to it
In the meantime, I will try and prepare for this ambitious role. You have already given me the perfect starting point for Melian; a conversation with Elwë about matters of importance to their realm as well as the new arrivals drawing near to Doriath. -
#5 von Walküre am 13 Sep, 2016 16:43
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You know how my heart is tied far more closely to the Feanoreans and Fingolfineans than is perhaps good to play a role in this, being first and foremost concerning the Sindar and House of Finarfin.
Yes, I know that you are deeply into the proud Fëanor, the valiant Fingolfin and their respective Houses. That's why I had opted for Fine. Nevertheless, I would be more than pleased by your participation in the game either way. Just guessing, Celeborn or even Elwë himself might be potential choices, especially with the latter being renowned to be a proud king too; you could also arrange for including a fictional character or a minor character as a messenger of the House of Fëanor (given that they had initially asked for Thingol's alliance, but they were refused every type of friendly co-operation). A minor role would suit well, as it won't require a so active commitment in the game, apart from sporadic appearances. Do as you wish
We will nonetheless have plenty of time for dealing with Fëanor extensively. As a very brief hint, one plan could consist of exploring the life of the Noldor in Aman and the turbulent happenings of the exile, above all the Noldorin council held in Tirion.
In the meantime, I will try and prepare for this ambitious role. You have already given me the perfect starting point for Melian; a conversation with Elwë about matters of importance to their realm as well as the new arrivals drawing near to Doriath.
Great input. The game is exactly supposed to be an opportunity to deal with the ever changing events of Beleriand during most of the War of the Jewels, while remaining safely within the Girdle of Melian. Also, compared to the solemnity of the White Council, it would be interesting to give the narration a more informal tone and to recreate a bit the atmosphere of the everyday life in Doriath. -
#6 von Fine am 14 Sep, 2016 08:50
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Very good. After the introduction has been posted, I will start off with Melian, if you do not mind. I already have a pretty good idea about what I'm going to write, and look forward to what you have in mind.
I am of course also open to additional participants, sharing your thoughts on what you wrote to VectorMaximus.
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#7 von Walküre am 14 Sep, 2016 10:10
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Starting with Melian is really the best option. Ok, I will open the game as soon as I can do so
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#8 von Walküre am 23 Sep, 2016 21:17
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I would like to share my thoughts on an interesting topic I often wonder about.
In regards of the First Age and the quests of the Noldor, I assume we will all follow the earliest approach of Tolkien to the matters involved, thus sticking to the actual old and original version of the Silmarillion (the one I always relate to).
In accordance to the lore of the Silmarillion: though the immense sorrow and mourning of the House of Finarfin, their kin in Alqualondë was massacred by Fëanor and, later, by the well-intentioned intervention of the House of Fingolfin, that believed that the craftsman of the Silmarils had been unjustly assaulted. Their horrified reaction shifted quickly to the ambitious goals that the Noldor had set themselves on and to the duty to achieve them. That is, the return of the Silmarils to their legitimate owner, the punishment of Morgoth and the longing for the free vast lands of Middle-earth, wild yet ready to be ruled over by the Eldar coming from the other shores of the Sea.
As far as I remember (and as I also read somewhere else), it is also suggested that the consequent curse of the Valar involved all the exiled equally, leaving in legacy a terrible burden to bear, unless the rebels redeemed and thus deserved piety for all their sins (of which the most impious ones were having dared to accuse the Valar of trying to cage the Noldor in their Blessed Realm, having disobeyed their direct orders and having stained the pure shores of Aman with the blood of the innocent Teleri). Even if the House of Finarfin refused to take part in the Kinslaying and swear over Fëanor's Oath, the hearts of those who opted to abandon the Undying Lands were filled by profound regret yet an eager desire to see with their own eyes the unexplored territories of the mortal world promised to them. Passing the deadly Helcaraxë, which only the Ainur may get through unspoiled, didn't prevent them from eventually landing in Beleriand.
In light of this canonical version, it's also argued that Galadriel never managed to receive forgiveness by the Powers of Arda until her very refusal to succumb to the lure of the One Ring. I don't deem this interpretation accurate though, as I think the ban and the curse of Mandos were altogether lifted after the plea of Eärendil and the end of the War of Wrath, with the exiled being granted the return to Eressëa and then to Valinor itself.
The lore of the History of Middle-earth: this later version of Tolkien changes a lot of things both in purely factual terms and the specific motives underlying each character; particularly, a new story of Galadriel and Celeborn was codified. Tolkien in fact tells that the two had already met in Alqualondë during the Years of the Trees; then, during the betrayal of Fëanor, not only did she refuse any involvement but she also fought directly to defend the people of her mother Eärwen. With the allowance of the Valar, she sailed with Celeborn to Beleriand in a white swan-ship, being staunchly resolute to aid her family and hinder the plans of the House of Fëanor that might have caused terrible atrocities again (as they were completely dominated by greed and revenge).
Now, with all my deep respect for the Professor and his masterpieces, I completely reject the latter version and I would say that the former is definitely more loyal to the pillars of the Silmarillion (though rough and obscure its lore could be). Henceforth, speaking about our RPG games, I would say we had better transpose correctly the fiery characteristic common to all the royal Noldor and their people. In this case, I would like to express Galadriel's sincere regret for what happened, along with showing that the flame of dominion and fight against the Evil (the difference with Fëanor is exactly that she and her brothers convey their energies to the real primary cause of the events that troubled the peace of Arda) is well alive. I still have to figure out the right measure of all of this; that is, the just balance between her two sides (don't forget that she had nonetheless disobeyed the will of the Valar too).
What do you think about this? Do you have any other example to bring, maybe related to other characters? I'm really curious to know other people's opinions
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#9 von Fine am 28 Sep, 2016 10:21
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Sorry for the late reply. I completely agree with you in that we should remain faithful to the original iteration of Galadriel - defiant of the Valar and desiring to carve out a realm of her own in Middle-earth - instead of the one you mentioned where she does not cross Helcaraxe. So once again, we are in full agreement.
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#10 von Walküre am 28 Sep, 2016 14:21
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So once again, we are in full agreement.
We are connected, as Melian and Galadriel
Hopefully, I will write my first post of the game this evening. After university classes, I'm having a lot of spare time to spend while journeying back home. There already is a main idea, and I just have to finalise some aspects
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#11 von Fine am 29 Sep, 2016 11:45
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I really liked your start with Nerwen, as she is at that time truly that: a fighter, a fiery-hearted maiden, no lesser a warrior than her brothers. Excellent.
In my last post, I attempted to separate the surrounding characters (Thingol and sons of Finarfin) from our two protagonists so we could start a more secluded conversation. I hope that is all right with you - I am of course always open to suggestions and will gladly make changes if they are required. -
#12 von Walküre am 29 Sep, 2016 13:09
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Carving a more intimate space from the main happenings of the visit is surely a wise choice. We are then able to immerse ourselves into their conversations right from the start. I would really like to maintain a friendlier and more informal tone between the two as time passes
I could have chosen her father-name Artanis ('noble maiden'), but I opted for her mother-name Nerwen ('man-maiden') to stress the fiery characterisation of Galadriel I was referring to. Galadriel was the name given to her by Celeborn, when they fell in love in Doriath (after that event, I will start using her usual name as we commonly know her). -
#13 von Walküre am 05 Okt, 2016 12:03
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I think we need to discuss some important aspects: Will Galadriel return to Hithlum with her brothers, after this first visit? Will Galadriel reveal to Melian, during this first encounter, part of the truth concerning the arrival of the Noldor in Middle-earth?
Elwë and Melian obviously suspect something and far rumours throughout the territories of Beleriand had told that the coming of the blessed Eldar might have been caused by something else than the mere desire of ruling over new lands. Also, they don't still know why the Valar had created the Sun and the Moon, appointed to journey through the skies of Arda and bring new light to the World. Needless to say, very little do the King and the Queen even know about the curse of Mandos and their guests' exile from Aman.
P.S. Just an insight into the words sung by Galadriel in front of Melian: in my interpretation, those inscriptions were a famous poem/song (poetry and singing are very much connected in the Elven culture) relating to the Valar and their realm. It was commonly known by the inhabitants of Aman and it stood as a symbol of the Powers' authority.
In this case, the song represents Galadriel's nostalgia for Valinor; a feeling that contrasts with the longing for revenge and her ambitions. This is what I exactly want to express, as she is deeply torn between regret and desire. Those lines shall forever remain memories of pure happiness of her merry life in the Undying Lands.
Another trivial fact, I was quite inspired to write that 'poem' by two songs of Enya that I was listening to the other day. It was not a matter of lyrics, but more a matter of melody and atmosphere (joy with some shades of multicoloured emotions of which regret and sadness are indeed a part, as a sort of 'aware happiness'). I personally find really interesting the idea of experimenting with poems/songs during the narration, which is also a recurrent theme in the Silmarillion. It would definitely be an enrichment if we were to explore more of that aspect
Songs: Pale Grass Blue and The Loxian Gate -
#14 von Fine am 11 Okt, 2016 08:09
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I think we need to discuss some important aspects: Will Galadriel return to Hithlum with her brothers, after this first visit? Will Galadriel reveal to Melian, during this first encounter, part of the truth concerning the arrival of the Noldor in Middle-earth?
Well, as I am sort of stuck right now on deciding what to write for Melian, I think it would be best for Galadriel to remain in Doriath at least a bit longer than her brothers who (I assume) would return to forge their individual realms within Beleriand, as Thingol gave them permission to do.
Also, Galadriel's reveal about the events at Alqualonde should wait, I think, until she has talked more with Melian (and Thingol), because I do not think this secret is something that even a Maia can perceive, if Galadriel is unwilling to reveal it herself. Once it is revealed and Elwe learns of it, he summons Finrod (if I recall correctly) and questions him about it, while Galadriel is also present.