[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Unit Proposal: Woodmen of Anduin

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Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Fredius am  5. Jan 2017, 14:31 ---That's actually a great idea within your question xD! Yes if Grimbeorn's Axe of Doriath will be implemented into the mod, then I think it should also rekindle the courage in the hearts of the Woodmen as well, since they also see Grimbeorn as their chieftain.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Wait, I didn't say I'm in favour of this concept. I was just hinting at a vague idea  :D

Jokes aside, I agree that Axe of Doriath should be involved. Therefore, that enchanted weapon could strengthen not only Beornings, but also the other people of the woods  :)

Garlodur:
Well, Fredius, with proposals like this you set an example for everyone who has ideas to improve the Mod. I hope to see more people who start off a topic this way, only to ensue further debate. Therefore, I will give you my criticism.

Firstly, in your conception the Lórien Pikemen would become obsolete. The Woodmen of the Vale would be a better alternative to Lórien's early game and the faction was supposed to be weak at defense. Besides, standard Lórien units already have a speed boost that makes them capable of crossing the map quickly, thus giving you plenty of options to defend your isolated build plots.
Secondly, the ET chose not to include Mirkwood Spearmen exactly in order to create a cavalry weakness for Lothlórien. Currently, it can be questioned to what extent this premise is defendable, with two very efficient anti-cavalry (Mirkwood Palace Guards and Elk Riders) and several other good options. Yet, anti-cavalry Woodmen would be difiicult to confine in a role.
Thirdly, in terms of the AI using too many Beornings, this is not an issue in online matches in which Beornings are made balanced with regards to cost and strength. The Beornings might be turned into more of an elite unit if the Axe of Doriath concept is accepted, but this will require rebalancing of attributes.
Fourthly, in terms of lore I question the availability of the Woodmen in war away from home. You have sketched their background to involve mainly defending their own Vale against the evils of the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, so I doubt they had much time to deal with whatever happened outside their borders. If they were implemented, I do agree with you that the Beorninger Hut in the Lothlórien faction is the right place in this mod.
Fifthly, Lothlórien is not weak at the moment, and you base your claims of offline matches. Besides, with the siege update the faction gains the permanent Huorn spell that will undoubtedly be used for defending isolated settlements. This will be an large step in the direction of what you wish for.

After giving criticism I feel obliged to come up with a compromise between your concept and something more likely to be accepted by ET. Thus, the Woodmen of the Vale could be implemented as a defensive upgrade to the Beorninger Hut in the form of creeps who defend it. This will be particulary useful in early game, if the tactical need for a Beorninger Hut is present, but still confines these units to defending their homes, which fits their background more appropriately.

I only hope to spark more discussion. Now, fire away. ;)

Fredius:
First of all thanks for your critics Garlodur, and for the praise as well, I appreciate it :).

Now as for my counterarguments, let's start with the position of the Lorien Pikemen. It's true that they can move quickly within the map, but there are two problems. Firstly, during early game battles against a spam attack, Lorien is automatically on a defensive position, and can't do much apart from defending its base and settlements. However, the problem is that Lorien only has 1 building from which units can be built; its citadel. If the enemy attacks both the settlements and the base, then Lorien cant send the pikemen, or any other troops for that matter, outside of its base, else he risks letting it be destroyed. Unlike the other factions, where you can have multiple recruitment buildings, and thus can produce twice as many troops in the same amount of time as Lorien. This means that the settlements are almost defenceless, unless the player builds an outpost, which involkes the second problem. It means that the player's early game survivability is dependant on building outposts, if that doesnt happen it's game over. Even if you manage to build an outpost, it still takes a lot of time and resources untill you can finally build troops and defences. I personally had a lot of matches where I got killed while having an outpost, because of how long it takes to be able to set up defences. I find that kind of a discouragable thought tbh. The Anduin Pikemen gives the player the opportunity to defend both the base AND his settlements, because Beornings and Ents can't defend them on their own, and the Lorien units are too busy protecting their own base.

Your second argument kinda confirms my first one; the player NEEDS the Mirkwood Outpost to survive. Also, once you build the Mirkwood outpost the Palace Guards become a better alternative, because the Woodsmen are just meant for early game, but you have to manage to build the outpost first :P. Apart from defending your settlements, one might argue that the other role of the Woodmen Pikemen would be to ensure the survival of the player untill an outpost is built.

As for your third argument, it might not be an issue with online matches, but it's an issue with the lore. It makes it seem that Beornings are numerous and act like some kind of cannon fodder on their own. I honestly believe that warriors who are twice as big as the average man, AND can transform into bears, should be counted as an elite force. This is just pure logic in my eyes.

It's true that the Woodmen fighting outside of their borders might seem against the lore, but the same can be said about the Beornings or the Shire. When did they ever fight outside of their borders? Same can also be said about specific units; like the Gondorian fountain guards or Mirkwood palace guards. Shouldnt they logically stay in their own homes to protect it as the guards they are? This is where "game" logic comes in, where anything can happen. Let the availability of certain units/factions in the lore please not influence the mod too much, else we can remove half of the units in it :P.

And for your final argument, I know some of these claims are not based on online matches, but it doesn't mean that we "AI players" opinions should be neglected ;). Also I'm aware of the siege patch, since, as a beta-tester, I tested it myself. I even dare to say that with the new siege patch, Lorien will need these pikemen even harder than before ;). The Huorn spell is atm a mid-late game spell, and the Woodmen are meant for the early game, where survivability is a lot harder.

All in all I hope my answers have convinced you. If not, then I am always eager to discuss this further :). The creeps system seems like a good idea as well though, but the point of a unit is that they can move to protect all the other settlements, not just the Beorning Homestead. I will let the team decide on what they prefer; if they even want to have the unit in the mod at all, that is :P.

Walküre:
I probably forgot to openly disclose my thoughts on the concept. I'm eventually FOR this proposal. Initially, I was kind of skeptic about implementing in the faction something that doesn't have any magical/supernatural property in their own characterisation. But, as for some of the concepts that have been recently discussed, the lore speaks clearly and very little of the idea falters. So, I made up my mind a bit and I don't think that adding Men to the faction would be negative, since the distinction of Lothlórien from the other realms is maintained very defined  :)

Fredius:
Wow thanks man! It would be an honour to add you to the list of people in favor of the concept xD.

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