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An alternative for Thorin's Company's regal armors von Bombur am 21 Jan, 2017 22:31
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Well, I know that the team already refused several times to include the regal heavy armours and BOTFA weapons of all Thorin's Company because they felt it does not fit with the Blue Mountains factions (which I don't agree because they are only heroes and that's not like you were transforming all the units; I don't see any problems to have generals / captains being more well equipped than their troops, but hey, your mod). However, I thought about another way to include them in the mode and this is what I came up with: maybe a spell could be given to the Iron Hills subfaction which would temporarily summon the whole company of Thorin Oakenshield at level 10 in regal armour.
I also know that it's not possible to give different spellbooks to the Dwarven subfactions, but I saw in another thread that it was possible to change how the spells works, like changing the content of a summon, so I think Gandalf could be replaced by this for the Iron Hills only. If you have to keep the same number of units, make them a hero battalion like the Fellowship. Actually, this could be even cooler than separate heroes while being more balanced and easier to manage than 13 temporary hero with all their powers to use in a brief time.
This would make sense lore-wise because we don't know of any time where Gandalf helped Dáin and the Iron Hills in the period in which the subfaction is set (unless you count BOTFA itself, but he didn't really came for them). It also would have several advantages:
1) Obviously, it would bring those armors and weapons to the mod, and I think that, despite our disagreements regarding their fitting into the Blue Mountains ambiance, we all agree that they are awesome armors and weapons
!
2) It would allow the player to fight with the whole Company at the full extent of their power, which is a bit hindered with the Blue Mountains because some of the members are only "subheros" (and Bombur only cooks
). Also, you could get Thorin and Dáin fighting alongside, which is almost as awesome (bromance !!) .
3) Blue Mountains Thorin would no longer get his regal armor at level 10 and therefore his style would no longer clash with the other members at level 10 and Orcrist would no longer disappear.
4) If you think about it, the only Dwarf army that was present when the Company used those armors was Dáin's, so, in a sense, giving them that incarnation of the Company would make even more sense than to the Blue Mountains.
On a side note, I also thought that Gandalf could be given his staff from the Hobbit movies for the two other Dwarf subfactions .
What do you think ?
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#1 von mycaelspear am 31 Jan, 2017 16:07
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It is an interesting idea. I don't think they can change it to be a summon as you suggest but I don't know how the spellbook works. Considering how the team has been avoiding the hobbit movies as much as possible I don't think this is likely to happen though.
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#2 von Julio229 am 31 Jan, 2017 16:35
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It can be done (the variation on the summon), I think, and I support the idea!
On another note, mycael, why do you say the Team avoids the Hobbit movies? The next faction will be the most Hobbit based one, and the Ered Luin Heroes have had their movie design since forever (3.8.1 at least). Mirkwood is entirely based on the Hobbit Trilogy and they even made Tauriel playable with a summon and recruitable in a map, even when she hadn't a place. I wouldn't say the Team avoids the movies. -
#3 von FG15 am 31 Jan, 2017 16:53
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Zitat
Considering how the team has been avoiding the hobbit movies as much as possible I don't think this is likely to happen though.
- Dori
- Nori/ old Nori
- Ori
- Bifur
- Bofur
- Bombur
- Fili
- Kili
- Gloin/old Gloin
- Oin
- Balin
- Dwalin
- Thorin/Thorin with royal armour
- Thranduil/Thranduil with armour/Thranduil's deer
- Tauriel
- Tauriel's guards/elkriders
- Palace Guards of Mirkwood
- Mirkwood Fighers and Archers
- Complete infrastructure of Mirkwood with different buildings
- Ram Riders
- Dain Ironfoot/King Dain
- Bard
- Brand
- Lake-town Fighters, Archers,Spearmen, and General
- Dale Fighters, Archers,Spearmen
- Lake-town as an outpost
- Dale as an outpost
- Dwarven Forge
- Tom, Bert and Bill
- Great Goblin
- Goblintown units in every variation
- Gundabad units in every variation based on those from the first movie
- The Defiler (Azog)
- The Hunter (Yazneg)
- Fimbul (ability of the Hunter)
- Bolg (Prison Guard of Dol Guldurs)
- Dol Guldur-Fortress
- Dol Guldur-Fighters, Archers and Pikes
- Elronds Design from AUJ
- Rivendell-Swordsmen, Spearmen and Archers
- Rivendell Banner (Bannertextur AUJ)
- Khamûl uncloaked
- Nekromancer in Shadowform and Fireform
- Radagast/Radagast on his sledge
- Bilbo young
- Goblintown buildings
- Ered Luin Guardains, Phalanx, Archers
- Unburned
- Erebor Guardians, Phalanx, Axe Throwers
- Arkenguard
- Iron Hills Guardians, Phalanx, Crossbows
- Dwarven Slayers
- Narin
- Murin
- Drar
- Ered Mithrin Zealots, Hunters and Dragon Slayers
- Veterans of Khazad-dûms
- the design of the CaH Dwarven Wanderer
and many more that I have just forgotten. -
#4 von Walküre am 31 Jan, 2017 17:16
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Considering how the team has been avoiding the hobbit movies as much as possible I don't think this is likely to happen though.
You're obviously free to have your personal opinion on the matter, but your statement is simply incorrect and unsubstantiated. How and where, precisely, does the will of the Edain Team to avoid the Hobbit trilogy manifest itself in the game? Unless you bring concrete evidences to everyone's attention, yours is an inconsistent statement.
The atmosphere of the Hobbit films and many of the trilogy's concepts are beautifully recreated in most of the factions, along with being implemented via smart mechanics, so that gameplay and balance are not sacrificed on the altar of additions. Coming from someone who has thoroughly appreciated that cinematographic adaptation, albeit recognising its flaws, I can say I'm quite satisfied with what has been used so far from those sources. As Julio hinted at, things are totally apparent: the Blue Mountains, the suffered yet relieving Dwarven Renaissance which especially involved the Iron Hills, the whole faction of the Misty Mountains (completely Hobbit-based), Sauron, Dol Guldur, Mirkwood, Radagast and many others. Of course, given that the Hobbit trilogy did have problematical defects, it's not possible to include every single detail in the game. If you are a bit disappointed with a choice of the developers, I respect your views and you are certainly entitled to make yourself be heard (possibly, in constructive terms), but saying that they ignored the entire issue is just wrong for numerous reasons.
Look, I'm not saying that it has been always joy and peace here, because a part of the Edain Community (I'm not able to quantify it precisely) did criticise the Hobbit trilogy, and on the ground of their beliefs they had legitimately opposed to many proposals that exactly entailed what we are discussing now. But we debated things, though heated the exchanges unfortunately were sometimes. Via proposing new concepts and developing new ideas we managed to have some suggestions finally accepted (as the depleting odyssey regarding the Iron Hills), and the Edain Team had also changed idea on some aspects in the meantime or simply decided to renew certain elements. I often advocate interesting proposals that concern the Hobbit films, and I sincerely believe that their essence plays a fundamental part in the Edain Mod.
EDIT: Ok, FG made things clearer with a list
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#5 von kingsjewel am 07 Feb, 2017 18:39
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I think the Company in Botfa armour would be great, but I disagree with this idea. There would be too many heroes even if only they would be summoned heroes. This spell also doesn't fit with Ered Luin. Only Thorin and a few dwarves from the company came from Ered Luin. Yes, the royal armour more fits with Erebor, but it would be pity if it disappears.
I saw an armour what would better suited with Ered Luin, but I think the team won't change the current armour so radically.
or this:
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#6 von Bombur am 07 Feb, 2017 20:22
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Read more closely
. I proposed this spell for the Iron Hills subfaction (Ered Luin already has the normal versions), and, about the "too much heroes" probelm, I proposed to make the Company a hero battalion like the Fellowship ringhero from Imladris.
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#7 von kingsjewel am 08 Feb, 2017 20:01
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Read more closely
I apologize . I proposed this spell for the Iron Hills subfaction (Ered Luin already has the normal versions), and, about the" too much heroes" probelm, I proposed to make the Company a hero battalion like the Fellowship ringhero from Imladris.
So it is not such a bad idea. -
#8 von Bombur am 09 Feb, 2017 21:36
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No problem .
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#9 von Walküre am 09 Feb, 2017 23:22
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Apart from replying to that untrue statement, I didn't express myself yet about the topic of this very thread. I will immediately make up for it and so give my sincere feedback.
Just to point things out in the straightest manner, I don't agree with the proposal. Although it's certainly possible to consider that spell under a lore-based perspective and to feed from the evocative cinematographic atmosphere of the Hobbit trilogy (a quality I often advocate with interest), there are some gameplay issues that could arise due to such choice. That is, we're talking about the conceptual differentiation among the three Dwarven factions: each faction is unique because it exactly boasts elements that the others can't dispose of. In this precise case, the Dwarven Company is the heart of the Blue Mountains and the most unique trait of the faction it correspondingly belongs to. Therefore, those heroes ought to remain an exclusive feature of the Blue Mountains only, even if your proposal is to implement them as a single hero (thus, via different mechanics).
I wouldn't be opposed in principle to suggestions aimed at tying more loyally the game to the films, but the problem is that we're not referring to units that might be shared by two factions, but rather to the iconic pillar of a certain faction itself. It would thus be like having Galadriel be implemented in Rivendell via the most diverse devices or Sauron be playable by Isengard. Furthermore, I believe that Gandalf serves well his current role in the spellbook, because his is a very wanderer-like of a characterisation; in two millennia, spent in journeying across Middle-earth, he did have the chance to visit plenty of places and get in touch with many realms, whose rulers have always acknowledged the Istar's prestige. -
#10 von Bombur am 10 Feb, 2017 04:16
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Well, Dáin is already shared, and furthermore as the main hero of the permanent roster, by Erebor and the Iron Hills, though, and so is Thorin III. Same for the Witch-king with Angmar and Mordor.
I think my proposal is justified lore-wise and proposes a more different incarnation of the Company than the two Dáin are differents. Plus they would only be temporary. I also would like to point out the fact that Blue Mountains and Iron Hills are sub-factions of the same faction (unlike Angmar and Mordor), thus diminishing the "shock factor". And finally, Rohan can summon Haldir, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Treebeard, which all primarily belong to entirely different, and even racially different factions, and Aragorn being one of the two main heroes of Gondor. Gondor which can himself summon a very large and iconic part of the Rohan Roster : Théoden, Éomer, Éowyn. They can also summon Elladan and Elrohir from Imladris. And I could even mention Arnor and Círdan, nay the Fellowship ringhero, which shares the hero battalion characteristic with my proposal.
Now, I will say that all of these summons are perfectly justified by them being iconic reinforcements at a moment or another in the books or the movies (I would even say it's not so evident in the case of the Ents, as they don't really came to help Rohan and went more on a solo action) ... which is exactly the case of Thorin's Company and the Iron Hills!
So, really, I don't see the problem here. -
#11 von Walküre am 10 Feb, 2017 09:47
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Dáin is shared by the Iron Hills and Erebor, but he has two completely different characterisations due to each faction's respective timeline: as a military warlord in the former and as an old king in the latter. A similar situation to the Witch-king's role in Angmar and his connotation as Sauron's deadliest servant in Mordor, during the War of the Ring. Gandalf's unique characteristics in the Dwarven spellbook are symbolised by his radically different abilities, which more or less grant him another characterisation too.
Yes, some factions can make usage of heroes who belong to other contexts, even if most of the examples are quite defined situations and tied to certain boundaries. Namely, we're not talking about many heroes at the same time (it doesn't matter if they're implemented as a single battalion) or major heroes with their whole potential at your disposal; Aragorn, just to name one, is indeed a fundamental character of Gondor, but his conceptual design is so broad as a regular hero in the very Gondor (four different typologies of characterisation that deal with all three films equally) that his implementation in Rohan ends up thus being very confined in itself. Furthermore, spells as Rohan Answers are well justified by their iconic legacy that relates to the beginning of the BFME series and by the important fact that they're ultimate spells (which is not the case of this proposal). In order to be even clearer, a concrete reference might be of better usage: would you be in favour to replace the current summoning of the Grey Pilgrim (in regards of the Blue Mountains) and to have Dáin with his host temporarily available in place of that spell? I wouldn't. That would mean, in my own opinion, to share a fundamental character with another faction (via a solution which is not an ultimate spell, as the situation would instead require). As I pointed out in my previous comment, we are talking about the whole Dwarven Company. The element which the faction is completely centred on.
Another possible argument could be the very hero-battalion system at the root of your proposal. I deem it a very unique feature and I personally believe it should involve the Fellowship of the Ring only, due to its strong relationship with the significant theme of unity. I'm not saying that the Dwarven Company is not united within itself, but the Fellowship of the Ring could be regarded as the real epitome of unity; that's why the feature that permits to use such heroes as a battalion ought to remain exclusive for Rivendell's Ring system. Moreover, even if the three Dwarven factions do technically represent three subfactions, I think one had better consider them as three truly distinct factions. That is, each of them satisfies its own needs (balance, differentiation and so on) and they are respectfully endowed with their proper gameplay style; henceforth, I would say that comparisons with common subfactions as Mirkwood or Dol Guldur wouldn't be so much proper. -
#12 von Bombur am 10 Feb, 2017 14:32
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I really don't see any difference with the summons of the Three Hunters (which is not an ultimate spell) or Rohan answers. The situation is exactly the same for me. Iconic reinforcements for a very specific and iconic situation in the books / movies. And with a characterisation even more different than Dáin's. I will also say that Rohan Answers summons not only several iconic heroes, but also a whole army, which justifies their position as an ultimate spell (same for your exemple of Dáin's host, btw).
And as I said, there are more exemples of less justified reinforcements already included in the mod (Treebeard, etc.).
Regarding the unicity of the hero battalion, I would more willingly point out the similarities between the Company and the Fellowship: they are both the group which undertakes an adventure with the Hobbit hero of their respective cycles: The Hobbit, for Bilbo, and The Lord of the Rings, for Frodo, that to say the two most iconic books of Tolkien (and Gandalf is a member of both, but I don't include him in my spell proposition because he's no more with them at the time).
Of course, the Fellowship is more important, for a more important book and a more important adventure, and it's then normal to feel them as the epitome you see, but, really, the parallel seems evident to me.
Thereby, I feel that those two groups only sharing the hero battalion fonction would be a great way to represent this parallel in the mod. And the superior importance of the Fellowhip is already represented by them being a permanent hero and a ringhero.
EDIT: I forgot there are a third iconic group which can qualify for the hero battalion system: the Nazgûl (as the evil equivalent of the Fellowship)... which are already implemented as a hero battalion in the mod! Well, the Witch-King, Khamûl and two others are separated as single heroes but still, there's actually already two (justified) hero battalions in the mod. -
#13 von Walküre am 10 Feb, 2017 15:53
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I'm not at all questioning the propriety of your proposal under a lore-based perspective, nor am I opposed to the strategic value of summoning reinforcements on the battlefield. The point is that such spell would bring the heart of the Blue Mountains into another faction, even if the feature is to be temporary. The other examples of summoning spells either deal with 'minor' heroes or, in case of major characters, have those mighty leaders confined within strict boundaries (the limited role of Aragorn in Rohan and the diverse abilities of Gandalf in the Dwarven spellbook). Coming to the exceptional case, Rohan Answers may well defy that uniqueness-related logic, because we're in front of an ultimate powerful spell; this aspect thus justifies the presence of such heroes and troops. Contrary to the mentioned situations, your proposal would not be an ultimate spell and would indeed implement in another faction the most important heroes of the Blue Mountains. Following in the footsteps of the reasoning I previously made: imagine having Sauron or Galadriel be momentarily available respectively in Isengard or Rivendell. I would be totally against such eventuality for the exposed reasons.
I personally liked those armours in BOTFA, yet, if they can't see light in the game, I don't agree with the idea of 'forcing' them in the Edain Mod via the suggested summoning of the Dwarven Company. Just to refer to the topic of the precedent posts, as many elements as possible from the Hobbit trilogy found a way in the game, but the proposition of including every single concept is unfortunately unreasonable (and not feasible too). As some other factions had to sacrifice something in regards of Hobbit-based material, the lack of that royal armoury doesn't seem to me a so unbearable of a flaw; bearing also in mind that Thorin's current royal armour is already a strong reference to those cinematographic concepts, although not all the armours have been implemented. It was due to the Community's strong desire for those armours, if I remember correctly, that the Edain Team eventually changed their mind about Thorin. Therefore, we could regard the present state of things as an already-satisfactory compromise. And behind a well-made compromise there is often a heated debate; a precious debate, undoubtedly, but heated too.EDIT: I forgot there are a third iconic group which can qualify for the hero battalion system: the Nazgûl (as the evil equivalent of the Fellowship)... which are already implemented as a hero battalion in the mod! Well, the Witch-King, Khamûl and two others are separated as single heroes but still, there's actually already two (justified) hero battalions in the mod.
That means that we may presently dispose of an extremely iconic feature for the Fellowship of the Ring and of its evil counterpart for the Nazgûl, being each of the two an element of prime importance in the first cinematographic chapter of LOTR. This reinforces my resolution not to have a third replica of said feature in the game. -
#14 von Bombur am 12 Feb, 2017 00:43
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Zitat
or, in case of major characters, have those mighty leaders confined within strict boundaries (the limited role of Aragorn in Rohan and the diverse abilities of Gandalf in the Dwarven spellbook).
But who said they should have the same abilities? Actually, this would even be impossible due to the lack of slots of the hero battalion. A different characterisation can totally be made!ZitatFollowing in the footsteps of the reasoning I previously made: imagine having Sauron or Galadriel be momentarily available respectively in Isengard or Rivendell. I would be totally against such eventuality for the exposed reasons.
If it was pertinent due to a passage of the books or perhaps the movies, I wouldn't see it like a problem (as long as it's balanced). The fact is, it's not, and the comparison is therefore not a good one.ZitatI personally liked those armours in BOTFA, yet, if they can't see light in the game, I don't agree with the idea of 'forcing' them in the Edain Mod via the suggested summoning of the Dwarven Company.
It's not "forcing" if it's justified. And for me, the situation is still exactly the same as the several exemples I have provided before.Zitatbearing also in mind that Thorin's current royal armour is already a strong reference to those cinematographic concepts
Actually, I love this armor but I find its current implementation rather annoying because he doesn't match with his company anymore and because it removes Orcrist from the game. Which is why I proposed to remove this armor / weapon change should my proposition be accepted.ZitatThat means that we may presently dispose of an extremely iconic feature for the Fellowship of the Ring and of its evil counterpart for the Nazgûl, being each of the two an element of prime importance in the first cinematographic chapter of LOTR. This reinforces my resolution not to have a third replica of said feature in the game.
I also said how the Company also hasa very strong parallel to the Fellowship and then deserves to share this feature to represent this parallel.