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Autor Thema: Ered Mithrin Overhaul  (Gelesen 1029 mal)

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #15 am: 1. Sep 2017, 15:14 »
Zitat
Zitat
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
What abiliy are you talking about?
I vaguely remember that the Ered Mithrin swordsmen had an ability that granted them like +75% armor versus fire, bonus damage and knockback resistance for 30 seconds or something. But I might be wrong about this; if so, nevermind!

@Walküre:
The thing is though, that the general rule of thumb says the following: Is the magic we are talking about more of a subtle manipulation of mind and spirit or a "hard-control" of the laws of nature? If the latter, it probably doesn't work in Middle Earth should we not also talk about an incredibly powerful entity, well experienced in ancient... yadda, yadda, yadda... :D Dwarves definitely do not belong into this category, just as well as fire-resistance of something does not belong into the "subtle manipulation category" as for example the moon runes do!

Zitat
Anyway, I would never discuss the wonders of science with an engineer xD
Physicist


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #16 am: 1. Sep 2017, 15:28 »
They currently have an active ability which enhances their movement speed by 30% for 20 or 30 sec
Thats why I want to change it ^^

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #17 am: 1. Sep 2017, 15:37 »
Zitat
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
What abiliy are you talking about?
I vaguely remember that the Ered Mithrin swordsmen had an ability that granted them like +75% armor versus fire, bonus damage and knockback resistance for 30 seconds or something. But I might be wrong about this; if so, nevermind!
[/quote]

In the last Edain version they only have an active ability that make them faster as i know ;)

Zitat
Anyway, I would never discuss the wonders of science with an engineer xD
Physicist

He was talking about me i guess  [ugly]

@Walküre:
The thing is though, that the general rule of thumb says the following: Is the magic we are talking about more of a subtle manipulation of mind and spirit or a "hard-control" of the laws of nature? If the latter, it probably doesn't work in Middle Earth should we not also talk about an incredibly powerful entity, well experienced in ancient... yadda, yadda, yadda... :D Dwarves definitely do not belong into this category, just as well as fire-resistance of something does not belong into the "subtle manipulation category" as for example the moon runes do!

Melkor i talk to you as "science colleague": i think instead it belongs to a subtle manipulation cathegory as well. Think about the current rune system: the rune of protection can "streghten" the molecules bonds of the walls and structures in an unnatural way. Now make a similarity with fire: a rune of fire could make the armor unnaturally very resitant against heat conduction, despite we know that in reality metals are very good heat conductors (i.e. very high heat conductivity/heat diffusivity ). Or also magic could create a sort of thin-film with very very low conductivity that covers the armor.
Just to say  :D

Walküre

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #18 am: 1. Sep 2017, 16:36 »
Aye, I was referring to Aulë, since I know he's an engineer. And, nay, I don't share your view about magic, lieber Melkor, Herr der Dunkelheit und des originalen Übels. Brace yourself, surprise incoming: I thoroughly disagree with you :D

I wouldn't divide magic in such a manner. It is more a matter of extent, at which the powers of a given being operate and function. In simple terms: the degree of manipulation of reality which one is endowed with. Henceforth, a Vala may move winds and cause storms, the Eldar can come up with the forging of utensils and weapons being able to counter the ferocity of deadly Maiar as Balrogs (or swords sensing the Evil approaching) and to the Dwarves a tiny fraction of magic may appoint to. It is probably a quite intricate of a debate, for the subtler magic is, the more difficult to analyse its own effects and to spot its very presence in whatever art or device. Well, I believe that some kind of incantation lies in the crafting knowledge of Dwarves, which could simply be the fine ability to shape and fashion unknown or uncanny materials, in order to make that superior typology of things. Forging a material which may resist fire an adequate deal (I didn't say that such armoury is to be totally immune) might fall into this lesser category of magic (which Tolkien regards as the influence of one's essence on nature). Just like the special daggers that Men of the North crafted to contest the wicked prowess of the Witch-king.
Che solo amore e luce ha per confine

Cicero64

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #19 am: 1. Sep 2017, 18:50 »
Hello there,
although I am reading in this forum for quite a time, I now have registrated to be a part of the ongoing discussions.

It was a fairly long time ago i read the Silmarillion but it just came to my mind that the dwarves of the blue mountains during the first age were the only ones being able to withstand the fire of Glaurung (I think during the Dagor Bragollach).

Greetings Cicero

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #20 am: 1. Sep 2017, 18:59 »
Zitat
Brace yourself, surprise incoming: I thoroughly disagree with you :D
We're approaching the point where someone should make a supercut of it and sell it as a over-long movie. There would certainly be enough material for it! xD

(mostly)@Walküre:
I'll write the reply partially in spoilers since I don't want to discourage other readers of this thread by 8 pages of arguing.

Zitat
In the last Edain version they only have an active ability that make them faster as i know ;)
Whoops, then I'd like to erase this point of mine from all protocolls! ;)

Lastly, back to the true concept: I am now actually pretty certain you could implement a system where Dragonslayers are recruited individually and then combined with an Ered Mithrin horde like an Overseer while keeping them limited.
However, using this "EquivalentTo"-trick I mentioned would create some little problem: The trick is to formally define both units (Dragonslayer-horde and the combo horde) as the same. This is same trick by which Mordors old Nazgul system in 3.8.1 worked and it should do it here, too. However (!) this way there will be one problem: Double clicking one of the affected units would autoselect them all, eventhough they are factually different units. However, this should be primarily an annoyance and nothing more -your decision if this is worth it.
(Sidenote: Normal Ered Mithrin hordes won't have this problem! It's only all combo-hordes and the Dragonslayer(-horde) which will suffer from this.)
However, I'd like to mention, that currently Dragonslayers are basically like Isengard's Berserkers -technically they should be fine as they are, granted they might need some changes!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: Cicero64, that is indeed true. :P However, I am quite sure it was more a mix of iron discipline / courage / dwarves not knowing when to leave and the incredible weakness of Glaurungs lower body which almost killed him with just a stab of a knife. Although, you are again right: There was something about their war masks -but now I'm out of things to know by heart.
Edit 2: Except one thing: That was the next battle, Nirnaeth Arnoediad or whatever its elvish name is. ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Sep 2017, 19:04 von Melkor Bauglir »

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #21 am: 1. Sep 2017, 19:33 »
However, I'd like to mention, that currently Dragonslayers are basically like Isengard's Berserkers -technically they should be fine as they are, granted they might need some changes!

They cost the double amount of resources as the berserkers, still rely on heavy armor/forged blades, are so slow that most heroes can simply run away pretty much unharmed, the aoe option is pretty much useless because they die way to fast in a horde fight and for me they are too small for microing around :D

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #22 am: 1. Sep 2017, 19:55 »
I remember that in previous versions of Edain there was different kind of runes, that was affecting troops. If i recall correctly via Thorin III, and via balin regarding heroes (curently in patch 4.4.1 Balin can create a shield to protect an hero). I think in the lore there's no mention of that (loremasters correct me if i'm wrong), but still runes are present in game in the spellbook and i think they belong to the "general" dwarves lore, from which Tolkien himself i suppose took inspiration for his works. I guess is the reason why the team kept the runes in game, despite they change multiple times their role.
Anyway you got the point Melokor, my idea is to give a moderate resistance to fire to EM troops, nothing overpowered ;) usually in game the normal units are very vulnerable to fire. I just experimented myself with zelotes against drakes ( from dragon lair): the fire inflicts very high damage to them, independently if you have or not heavy armor. Same is with the majority of troops in game.

About the concept and dragonslayers: with somr overhaul i can accept to keep them as they are. We can get rid of the current switch weapon ability to create something more unique and effective against monsters for example (or keep both the old and new ability increasing their cost). This would justify more their name and role as monsters-slayers.

About the fortress a decreasing of the initial cost would make it more accessible in early game, just as it is with Lake-town and Dale. I like the idea of Fancy on this matter.

They cost the double amount of resources as the berserkers, still rely on heavy armor/forged blades, are so slow that most heroes can simply run away pretty much unharmed, the aoe option is pretty much useless because they die way to fast in a horde fight and for me they are too small for microing around :D

Yeah is the problem of any single target unit: if you enemy concetrate his/her forces on them, they die pretty instantly [ugly]. We could make them stronger. I would get rid of the mace/sword system as well  ;).

Walküre

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #23 am: 1. Sep 2017, 23:52 »
We still have differing opinions, Melkor, as I fear. I'm glad that we have found a common ground about the possibility of fire resistance, which is undoubtedly a very interesting scope for furthering this proposal. As you pointed out yourself, I was never strictly referring to runes in themselves, because the theme of 'special crafting', let us call it this way, does intertwine the magical motive much subtly; and I have thus stated how much subtler magic is complex to explain and thoroughly understand, in my opinion. That hard control you were talking about. And I exactly find the idea of particular armoury very fitting for the purpose, as invisible gates are. In these cases, magic plays a minor role still, albeit secondary, but necessary and significant nonetheless. It is not just craftsmanship itself, given that one should also include that tiny magical ingredient or formula that makes the equation balanced. In the footsteps of those magically-imbued daggers serving as weapons against Angmar. You couldn't just clarify all aspects through mastery of crafting, as one would presumably do in regards of Men and their mighty stone-made masterpieces; there is that magical hue in the background, which gives the proper sense to that said tool or device, be it inscriptions that may be read only if hit by moonlight (activating the system after the pronunciation of a specific code word). A type of magic very much in the background, surely, yet ever-persisting. The opposite of that magical shield or defence you have written about; that would indeed cross the limit of our hard-control magic. It is maybe this particularity of the Dwarven race that quite fascinates me, in that you might notice some traces of that uncanny mystery, which is Tolkien's own definition of magic, in their art. A better Tolkien-like perspective, compared to sheer (advanced) chemistry/physics of luminescent fluids. By the way, how could you explain the code-word mechanism at the gates of Moria? Early microphones hidden in the very stone? :D

By the way, repeating my own words, I appreciate the involvement of science and realistic theories in Arda a good deal, as they differentiate this world from others in which fantasy roams around boundless and completely unchained. However, I personally deem such disenchanted motive, connected to the classical role of human arts/sciences, more suitable for Men. Elves and Dwarves, two past decaying races, boast generally magic as a more common feature.

Hello there,
although I am reading in this forum for quite a time, I now have registrated to be a part of the ongoing discussions.

It was a fairly long time ago i read the Silmarillion but it just came to my mind that the dwarves of the blue mountains during the first age were the only ones being able to withstand the fire of Glaurung (I think during the Dagor Bragollach).

Welcome to Modding Union. I agree with the chance to make some references to the struggle against dragons in the Elder Days. A motive worth being debated :)
Che solo amore e luce ha per confine

Garlodur

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #24 am: 3. Sep 2017, 15:04 »

Hello there,
although I am reading in this forum for quite a time, I now have registrated to be a part of the ongoing discussions.

It was a fairly long time ago i read the Silmarillion but it just came to my mind that the dwarves of the blue mountains during the first age were the only ones being able to withstand the fire of Glaurung (I think during the Dagor Bragollach).

Welcome to Modding Union. I agree with the chance to make some references to the struggle against dragons in the Elder Days. A motive worth being debated :)

In that case I would like to drop these awesome designs from a graphic designer on DeviantArt. I always figured there would be no place in Edain to incorporate them, but here we are discussing the very possibility of First Age Dwarves protecting themselves against dragonfire!

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarf-War-Masks-433892685

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/dwarf-masks-2-434423743

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarvish-Armor-452578450

Significant to note here is that the artist focusses on the weakest part of a Dwarf's physiology, his or her beard.  ;)


I don't want to go too far into debating physics because of my lack of knowledge, but I do see the space of interpretation inside Tolkienverse regarding magical protection against the elements. I only mean to say that such a feature would not stretch the limits of Dwarven understanding of magic (whether through regular runes or expert craftsmanship).

From a gameplay perspective it would be very cool to have a sub-faction dedicated to fighting monsters and other inflammatory tools, which is what the Grey Mountains outpost was originally designed for. Such a sub-faction would be ideal in fighting Misty Mountains, Mordor, or even Lórien's Ents. Anyhow I do agree with the main line of this topic, suggesting to improve the Grey Mountains units.

I am in favour of removing the Dragon Slayer as a single unit, because he is very cumbersome in use and not worthwhile buying. I suggest something unique is found to address the consequent progression of both the outpost and its units. I propose something that lies in between the Orc Overseers and Uruk Captains: following the premise that the Bastion is split in a defensive and offensive variant through an upgrade, the Grey Mountain Dwarven battalions gain access to the Dragon Slayer upgrade that maxes out their level and provides a passive boost to their survivability in fighting monsters.

Depending what ability these Dwarves have in the first place, their usefulness should be increased to such an extent they really become unique units in the Edain mod, such as existing phenomena as the Uruk Shieldbearers, Imladris Weaponmasters and Elkriders.

As always I hoped to have stoked the debate to further evolution.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #25 am: 4. Sep 2017, 13:26 »

In that case I would like to drop these awesome designs from a graphic designer on DeviantArt. I always figured there would be no place in Edain to incorporate them, but here we are discussing the very possibility of First Age Dwarves protecting themselves against dragonfire!

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarf-War-Masks-433892685

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/dwarf-masks-2-434423743

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarvish-Armor-452578450

Significant to note here is that the artist focusses on the weakest part of a Dwarf's physiology, his or her beard.  ;)


Very good design Garlodur ;) i remember i seen once those drawing, are unique. The beards is for sure a very flammable part of the dwarves, so is logic that it needs a good protection too  xD
 I 've written some more about dwarves and their wars against Dragons. Regarding EM there is a very poor amount of lore, and for sure they fought against non-flaming dragons. Anyway, i think a protection against fire and/or other elemental damage would help in different kind of situations, especially against evil faction. For example MM i think will make use of fire via Smaug and drakes, Mordor is the faction who most use poison damage, and many other examples. At least such protection would give a cool and useful role to EM units.

A middle way between uruk captain and orc overseen is more or less what i was thinking about  :).