[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Ered Mithrin Overhaul

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Melkor Bauglir:

--- Zitat ---Brace yourself, surprise incoming: I thoroughly disagree with you :D
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We're approaching the point where someone should make a supercut of it and sell it as a over-long movie. There would certainly be enough material for it! xD

(mostly)@Walküre:
I'll write the reply partially in spoilers since I don't want to discourage other readers of this thread by 8 pages of arguing. The funny part is that I can't find anything disagreeing with my point in your post, so I guess, this will walk right into the "misunderstanding"-box. What we can hopefully agree on are certain examples: Tolkienverse magic would not allow for fireball throwing wizard duking it out while they levitate above the ground. It would not allow someone to conjure up a magic-shield and use it to block catapult fire. Neither would it allow regular people to... I don't know, to literally turn yourself into a dragon or some of the ancient monsters of the deep? That's basically what I mean with "hard-control".
The way I thought about it resulted in putting a fire-resisting armor in exactly this category, since that is pretty much what I understand of a magical shield. To be fair though, since Edain already has this rune magic (see below) such resistance could work. Aulë's point is therefore also a valid approach as far as I can tell.
Still: The doors just turn invisible when not shine upon by the moon! Since that is a pretty special situation (see below) and also not that far away from what real matter can do (fluorescence, anyone?) if for the mystical touch, I'd say that these runes' actions are pretty subtle. Meanwhile, stopping direct damage directed towards the carrier of certain armor is a pretty direct and "in your face"-method. ;) Two points to support this further:

1. We are talking about dragonfire! That stuff is literally able to destroy rings of power! My point is, rune-magic (if it even exists this way!) needs to be insanely powerful to not utterly useless, otherwise the dwarves would probably forget about it in the first place. Which brings me to number 2...
2. I'm sorry, but there is ZERO mentioning of this sort of direct protection by runes! And if they were able to accomplish something as powerful as protection against dragonfire, dwarves wouldn't just ignore this. This way runes could very well stand on the same level as mithril and that already reads "plotholelium 1337" in our modern language. xD

To conclude: I know, I haven't answered all questions or to the entire reply, but I'll note the following: All examples you gave in your post, I'd put in the "subtle" or in the "powerful entity" category. Also, I'd like to make clear, that making something mildly effective against fire is definitely possible.

"See below"-part:
The thing about runes is, I understood them a little different: First apart from 2 (?) gates at Moria and Erebor we don't know much about them, therefore the margin of statistical error in our interpretation is quite large, so to speak. Secondly, both these locations are very special locations being the two really great dwarven kingdoms, so that alone was for me reason enough to not question their power -there are numerous examples in the LotR or Tolkien's work in general where a situation is the deciding factor about what a spell can do; both Moria and the Erebor should be special enough.

TL:DR: Yes, the dwarves (and other races too, for that matter) could probably craft an armor that is moderately effective against fire. And I'd say, that your idea how this could be accomplished, sounds reasonable, Aulë, eventhough I wouldn't interpret runes this way. Granted this point: The hunters of the Ered Mithrin are exclusively experiencing fiery attacks when up against firedrakes. This is the point where the knowledge of craftsmanship starts to break down, including rune magic.

--- Zitat ---In the last Edain version they only have an active ability that make them faster as i know ;)
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Whoops, then I'd like to erase this point of mine from all protocolls! ;)

Lastly, back to the true concept: I am now actually pretty certain you could implement a system where Dragonslayers are recruited individually and then combined with an Ered Mithrin horde like an Overseer while keeping them limited.
However, using this "EquivalentTo"-trick I mentioned would create some little problem: The trick is to formally define both units (Dragonslayer-horde and the combo horde) as the same. This is same trick by which Mordors old Nazgul system in 3.8.1 worked and it should do it here, too. However (!) this way there will be one problem: Double clicking one of the affected units would autoselect them all, eventhough they are factually different units. However, this should be primarily an annoyance and nothing more -your decision if this is worth it.
(Sidenote: Normal Ered Mithrin hordes won't have this problem! It's only all combo-hordes and the Dragonslayer(-horde) which will suffer from this.)
However, I'd like to mention, that currently Dragonslayers are basically like Isengard's Berserkers -technically they should be fine as they are, granted they might need some changes!


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: Cicero64, that is indeed true. :P However, I am quite sure it was more a mix of iron discipline / courage / dwarves not knowing when to leave and the incredible weakness of Glaurungs lower body which almost killed him with just a stab of a knife. Although, you are again right: There was something about their war masks -but now I'm out of things to know by heart.
Edit 2: Except one thing: That was the next battle, Nirnaeth Arnoediad or whatever its elvish name is. ;)

Fancy Lad School:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am  1. Sep 2017, 18:59 ---However, I'd like to mention, that currently Dragonslayers are basically like Isengard's Berserkers -technically they should be fine as they are, granted they might need some changes!

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They cost the double amount of resources as the berserkers, still rely on heavy armor/forged blades, are so slow that most heroes can simply run away pretty much unharmed, the aoe option is pretty much useless because they die way to fast in a horde fight and for me they are too small for microing around :D

AulëTheSmith:
I remember that in previous versions of Edain there was different kind of runes, that was affecting troops. If i recall correctly via Thorin III, and via balin regarding heroes (curently in patch 4.4.1 Balin can create a shield to protect an hero). I think in the lore there's no mention of that (loremasters correct me if i'm wrong), but still runes are present in game in the spellbook and i think they belong to the "general" dwarves lore, from which Tolkien himself i suppose took inspiration for his works. I guess is the reason why the team kept the runes in game, despite they change multiple times their role.
Anyway you got the point Melokor, my idea is to give a moderate resistance to fire to EM troops, nothing overpowered ;) usually in game the normal units are very vulnerable to fire. I just experimented myself with zelotes against drakes ( from dragon lair): the fire inflicts very high damage to them, independently if you have or not heavy armor. Same is with the majority of troops in game.

About the concept and dragonslayers: with somr overhaul i can accept to keep them as they are. We can get rid of the current switch weapon ability to create something more unique and effective against monsters for example (or keep both the old and new ability increasing their cost). This would justify more their name and role as monsters-slayers.

About the fortress a decreasing of the initial cost would make it more accessible in early game, just as it is with Lake-town and Dale. I like the idea of Fancy on this matter.


--- Zitat von: Fancy Lad School am  1. Sep 2017, 19:33 ---They cost the double amount of resources as the berserkers, still rely on heavy armor/forged blades, are so slow that most heroes can simply run away pretty much unharmed, the aoe option is pretty much useless because they die way to fast in a horde fight and for me they are too small for microing around :D

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Yeah is the problem of any single target unit: if you enemy concetrate his/her forces on them, they die pretty instantly [ugly]. We could make them stronger. I would get rid of the mace/sword system as well  ;).

Walküre:
We still have differing opinions, Melkor, as I fear. I'm glad that we have found a common ground about the possibility of fire resistance, which is undoubtedly a very interesting scope for furthering this proposal. As you pointed out yourself, I was never strictly referring to runes in themselves, because the theme of 'special crafting', let us call it this way, does intertwine the magical motive much subtly; and I have thus stated how much subtler magic is complex to explain and thoroughly understand, in my opinion. That hard control you were talking about. And I exactly find the idea of particular armoury very fitting for the purpose, as invisible gates are. In these cases, magic plays a minor role still, albeit secondary, but necessary and significant nonetheless. It is not just craftsmanship itself, given that one should also include that tiny magical ingredient or formula that makes the equation balanced. In the footsteps of those magically-imbued daggers serving as weapons against Angmar. You couldn't just clarify all aspects through mastery of crafting, as one would presumably do in regards of Men and their mighty stone-made masterpieces; there is that magical hue in the background, which gives the proper sense to that said tool or device, be it inscriptions that may be read only if hit by moonlight (activating the system after the pronunciation of a specific code word). A type of magic very much in the background, surely, yet ever-persisting. The opposite of that magical shield or defence you have written about; that would indeed cross the limit of our hard-control magic. It is maybe this particularity of the Dwarven race that quite fascinates me, in that you might notice some traces of that uncanny mystery, which is Tolkien's own definition of magic, in their art. A better Tolkien-like perspective, compared to sheer (advanced) chemistry/physics of luminescent fluids. By the way, how could you explain the code-word mechanism at the gates of Moria? Early microphones hidden in the very stone? :D

By the way, repeating my own words, I appreciate the involvement of science and realistic theories in Arda a good deal, as they differentiate this world from others in which fantasy roams around boundless and completely unchained. However, I personally deem such disenchanted motive, connected to the classical role of human arts/sciences, more suitable for Men. Elves and Dwarves, two past decaying races, boast generally magic as a more common feature.


--- Zitat von: Cicero64 am  1. Sep 2017, 18:50 ---Hello there,
although I am reading in this forum for quite a time, I now have registrated to be a part of the ongoing discussions.

It was a fairly long time ago i read the Silmarillion but it just came to my mind that the dwarves of the blue mountains during the first age were the only ones being able to withstand the fire of Glaurung (I think during the Dagor Bragollach).

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Welcome to Modding Union. I agree with the chance to make some references to the struggle against dragons in the Elder Days. A motive worth being debated :)

Garlodur:

--- Zitat von: Walküre am  1. Sep 2017, 23:52 ---

--- Zitat von: Cicero64 am  1. Sep 2017, 18:50 ---Hello there,
although I am reading in this forum for quite a time, I now have registrated to be a part of the ongoing discussions.

It was a fairly long time ago i read the Silmarillion but it just came to my mind that the dwarves of the blue mountains during the first age were the only ones being able to withstand the fire of Glaurung (I think during the Dagor Bragollach).

--- Ende Zitat ---

Welcome to Modding Union. I agree with the chance to make some references to the struggle against dragons in the Elder Days. A motive worth being debated :)

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In that case I would like to drop these awesome designs from a graphic designer on DeviantArt. I always figured there would be no place in Edain to incorporate them, but here we are discussing the very possibility of First Age Dwarves protecting themselves against dragonfire!

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarf-War-Masks-433892685

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/dwarf-masks-2-434423743

https://turnermohan.deviantart.com/art/Dwarvish-Armor-452578450

Significant to note here is that the artist focusses on the weakest part of a Dwarf's physiology, his or her beard.  ;)


I don't want to go too far into debating physics because of my lack of knowledge, but I do see the space of interpretation inside Tolkienverse regarding magical protection against the elements. I only mean to say that such a feature would not stretch the limits of Dwarven understanding of magic (whether through regular runes or expert craftsmanship).

From a gameplay perspective it would be very cool to have a sub-faction dedicated to fighting monsters and other inflammatory tools, which is what the Grey Mountains outpost was originally designed for. Such a sub-faction would be ideal in fighting Misty Mountains, Mordor, or even Lórien's Ents. Anyhow I do agree with the main line of this topic, suggesting to improve the Grey Mountains units.

I am in favour of removing the Dragon Slayer as a single unit, because he is very cumbersome in use and not worthwhile buying. I suggest something unique is found to address the consequent progression of both the outpost and its units. I propose something that lies in between the Orc Overseers and Uruk Captains: following the premise that the Bastion is split in a defensive and offensive variant through an upgrade, the Grey Mountain Dwarven battalions gain access to the Dragon Slayer upgrade that maxes out their level and provides a passive boost to their survivability in fighting monsters.

Depending what ability these Dwarves have in the first place, their usefulness should be increased to such an extent they really become unique units in the Edain mod, such as existing phenomena as the Uruk Shieldbearers, Imladris Weaponmasters and Elkriders.

As always I hoped to have stoked the debate to further evolution.

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