[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

The Goblins faction

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dkbluewizard:
Hello everyone,

For a long time now I struggled with this idea and I think this would benefit the Edain Mod, team, and community. I have devised a canonical faction that would serve the purposes of everything that we want as well as a new competitive faction. Please open up on my friends account to view in google drive.

Look forward to the feedback and thank you.

dkbluewizard.




https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByiHrrUNuhb9d09JN2pCSURhTWc/view?usp=sharing

Julio229:
The amount of work you've put into this is great! I specially love how you were able to include the Lossoth in a good way, as they were difficult to include in the existing factions (except Arnor, probably), but they really fit this way.

Another pro for the faction is that it doesn't take a faction slot, which is a big advantage, and everyone is able to get what they want: If you want the Defiler, the Great Goblin, you use one faction, and if you want the dragons, you choose the other.

The only thing I'd say is I still think the Balrog shouldn't be a permanent hero if nerfing him is needed (as I think having him as he would be right now is really fitting for him) , but nonetheless, what you've done here is great!

Awesome work!  :P

Walküre:
Initially, I shall make usage of the introduction of this comment of mine to acknowledge, Blue, the daunting effort you have undergone in coming up with a very grand of a proposition, which is to entail the addition of new content in a general scheme that has already been planned thoroughly since the release of the opening 4.0 patch. Albeit the official article belonging to another Edain era, as I cherish this definition a very good deal, the premises which are to found and sustain the holistic architecture of the Goblins might still be deemed well valid, even today. Reasonable and absolutely well-thought, as the original plan has been exactly envisaged. I know very well the strenuous fatigue of conceiving more structured proposals, and I thus rejoice at the opportunity to debate one of them here, in the very forum, for this space is undoubtedly nourished by ideas of the most diverse kind. I am therefore confident that we are all to set the foundations of a positive discussion, whatever its outcome may be and wherever it may lead us.

Henceforth, it is of imperative note that I be the clearest possible about my personal stance on the entirety of the suggestion: I am not convinced by the arguments which have been hitherto brought as pillars of the new faction.

The point revolving around the sheer number of evil and good factions I find very much flawed in principle. It seems to me a non sequitur assumption to make and of very little avail equally, were we to consider things altogether. The Good naturally boasts more diversity in terms of characters and scopes in the game for elaborating new possibilities, being multiple realms and heroes allied against not so many foes (Sauron represents the heart of the wicked side, with perhaps Isengard as the sole secondary antagonist that could come close to Mordor, and both the two players in the geopolitics of Middle-earth are then surrounded by a wide range of minor auxiliaries). Just to stick to and remain fine-tuned with the atmosphere and context of the War of the Ring, the prime timeline, the attempt of evening up the balance of mere numbers between the two sides doesn't sound a proper idea, nor do I really perceive the necessity of that to happen. By the way, given that this new faction is not to occupy any slot, I find the argument of even lesser beneficial effect for the proposal.

Furthermore, I would like to address the conceptual motive of the concept, in the widest and most comprehensive perspective. I believe there could be many analogies which one might find with the ever-green (pardon the pun) independent Mirkwood. It is de facto a very similar case: I can't think about anything necessary or compelling, when we discuss the hypothetical focus on the Grey Mountains as an evil faction. Being differentiation a paramount property of the Edain Mod, of the utmost priority, I would say that such inclusion would result redundant and not guided by sound reasons (with a very clear direction in mind). All appears to be, in my eyes, another Misty Mountains faction clothed with different robes, just to insert hither and thither patterns that are already present in the actual design of the game (Orcs, trolls, loose and feral beasts), alongside disrupting the coherence of the faction's spellbook with the intention of rendering the fiery Maia a permanent feature. If you remember, Blue, not only did I oppose the Balrog becoming a Ring hero, but I had also criticised the prospect of him being made (weakened and halved in might) a permanent hero. Correct me if I am in error, but I recall you having accepted the inexorable situational connotation of the Balrog. How did this new proposal take those arguments and debates into account? By the way, as for what deals with spells, I don't think that giant worms could ever replace for the better such a mighty and iconic spell as the summoning of Durin's Bane; moreover, lore-wise, the summoning of Nameless Creatures seems to be a stark violation of the canons, in that they have never served anyone but themselves, for they are the omega-type beasts by definition, and they ought not to be mistaken as Maiar or other fell creatures at the service of evil forces (they are in fact deadly for both sides, with no pledge of allegiance). The Watcher constitutes an exceptional case, because it comes from the vanilla and we actually have enough information about the character (needless to say, it appears on the screen too and simply evokes the atmosphere of the renowned Moria sequence).

In order to put more flesh on the bones of that famous Moria sequence, I also oppose the idea of Moria buildings being utilised for other purposes that are not Moria only. The art and essence of those structures was marvellously fashioned on the eerie nature of the mines, and by the ever-present wonderful scenes of the cinematographic adaptation which pertain to the quest inside those galleries and solitary halls. Splendid moments in the film, in tune with the purest spirit of Lord of the Rings. The Dwarven system is a strict one and thus forces to share the initial base. This would be improper in the own context of the Misty Mountains faction, whose own system makes it possible to explore the multifaceted traits of the material we have been provided with by the books and, especially, by the films, with Moria as the beating heart on which everything is centred. That's why, in nuce, I don't agree with the said founding premises of your concept, and with the consequences they are to lead us to: a confused restructuring that alters a design which fares well, leaving aside the minor overhauls on which the Edain Team is to work. The current foundations of the faction are sound as they are now, and this needn't be changed for the worse, as my erstwhile passages reiterate.

As a last note, you mentioned verbal aggressions in past discussions. What are you referring to, exactly? I don't remember the tone of the debate worsening so much, so that all turned into aggressive behaviour. Also, I'm not quite sure what you meant with 'Tolkienists' and 'Non-Tolkienists' in the list of pros and cons.

Julio229:
Walk, you brought great points here, and I'm positive too that this can become a positive debate or discussion. I agree with many of your points, and I mostly like the concept, so, even if I'm not good at debating or whatever, I'll be sure to follow the discussion that can come out of this!

Just to add something, what you said about Moria is true, that unique look should be reserved only for them, as it is too iconic to be used in another way (the Moria sequence is probably my favourite part on the films, too). And about Balrog, I'm still against it being a permanent hero because of the reasons you mentioned. A nerfed Balrog wouldn't make justice to the nature of the character, and making it permanent would include nerfing him for sure.

Anyways, I'm eager to see what path this conversation will take!

Fredius:
After reading the proposal I must say that there are some major issues. Before I post my arguments I would like to inform you that I am not against a bigger representation of the Grey Mountains in the mod. However, the way it is set up in this concept is, in my opinion, not the right way to implement them. I agree with the points Walküre posted above, and there are some other things that I would like to point out as well.

First and foremost; the Lossoth. This is a major canonical flaw in your proposal, because the Lossoth were never described as a people that fight for Evil causes. They even helped the last king of Arthedain, Arvedui, who tried to escape the destruction of his kingdom. So having the Lossoth be represented as Scavengers into an Evil faction makes no sense to be honest. Furthermore, the Lossoth are described to have lived in the Cape of Forochel, which doesn’t even come close to the Misty Mountains, let alone the Grey Mountains. So having them as a slave unit would make, distance wise, as much sense as the Grey Mountains having slaves from Rohan.

Second problem, which is already pointed out by Walküre, but on which I would like to expand upon, is the issue of Moria buildings in the Grey Mountains. Walküre already stated that having the Moria buildings be the main base of the Grey Mountains would remove the iconic cinematographic uniqueness that Moria in the Misty Mountains has. To me, this argument also counts for Moria’s units. I can’t imagine giving the armour of the Moria Goblins to the Grey Mountains’ Orcs, and would prefer them to have a unique design.

I myself also imagined the Grey Mountains to have a different unique architecture, and Edain already showed that beautifully through the Ered Mithrin outpost. This means that the ruins of the Grey Mountains Dwarves, which the Grey Mountains Orcs are using for their own purposes now, should look similar to the Ered Mithrin Outpost, not the Moria buildings. But this is engine wise not possible, because the starting base can, according to ET, not be changed, else we had unique bases for every Dwarven sub faction as well. The Grey Mountains as a starting base is therefore, in my opinion, out of the question.

And last but not least, Tom, Bert and Bill as ring-heroes is not something I support. I can’t even think of any powers that they would get :/.

So all in all, I’m against this current proposal because of aforementioned reasons. However, like I said, I am not against giving the Grey Mountains a bigger role, but it shouldn't be so big as to become a whole new faction.

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