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New Imladris Spellbook von kreso am 18 Sep, 2017 19:05
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Hi guys,
We are here to help Edain team, not just for waiting for release the new patch.
Here I have suggestions for 1st and 2nd row and central spell.
THE FIRST ROW
1. Masters of Healing
You can choose any of your building to have healing passive for 30sec.
Reason for this: We need to prevent Hero heal becuse Arwen have it, and Elrond have refresh and plus heal from skillbook atm is really op. This change open skill for Elrond to back his huge area of heal as lvl 3 spell. And heal skill now can be used really aggressive atm but we need deffensive spell. Elven wood would fit much better in Lothlorien.
2. Erestor, Chief Counsellor
Erestor from Citadel moved to Skillbook.
So these are 2 new skills which You can combine with skills which exist already and choose two best options.
THE SECOND ROW
Atm we have really good 4 skills, I think community really like Breeze of Manwe, and everyone dislike to play against Hobbits (they are too op, even for 3 skillpoint spell) and every Imladris player want to use them.
Luthinen song is rarely used i dont know why i think that is one of best spells. Passive: Arwen is rarely used but I think it is very balanced and nice late game boost for Imladris because of its scaling.
I don't have idea what we should take but i don't want to see Eagles in Rivendel, we have Gondor for that.
I think CENTRAL SPELL should be around Elrond.
My suggestion is that Elrond get his armour and leadership (+30% armour and additionally 20% against arrows to all units nearby) + Elrond commander of Last Aliance. Give to Veterans of Last Alliance resistance for knock back and fear resistance. That is open slot for skill of healing and also it would implement VoLA in game more often.
That is from me, I just want to discus about this topic, because we all want to speed up release of 4.5 patch, so join the discussion. Thank You and sorry for a bad english :/... -
#1 von FG15 am 18 Sep, 2017 20:31
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I really expected such a thread to appear much earlier. Great to see that the community tries to support the creation of the new spellbooks.
Just a note, there are only 2 spells in the second row. The third row is the one with 4 spells.
Also, I dislike Elrond as a central spell. He isn't really that central for Rivendells gameplay in contrast to Theoden for Rohan (and we added even an element to Theodens spell that affects all heroes), and furthermore there is Arwen too. And the vetarans are too niche, too, for a central spell. -
#2 von kreso am 18 Sep, 2017 22:39
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FG15, we are playing, You are working, is that fair?
I know for 2nd row I just don't know atm how to make those spell off or deff oriented because they are really flexible.
One thing that is annoying to do is every game to build fountain on the wall and after every fight You need to back units back to base or build outpost just for well...
I know isn't that good to have him in central spell because you need to adjust whole Imladris gameplay to make it work. But that I had in that moment.
Swordmen are main spot of Imladris spellbook, but they have every thing that they need, you cant give them knock back and tremple resistance or arrow resistance, they could be really unkillable. But there is one week spot that is exposed too much, and that is reducing armor, armor of Imladris units is their stongest spot if You counter that it is gg for them. Could we have debuff resistance for units, can that be involved by programing?
I have one general suggestion for spellbooks, make spells less effective but shorten cooldown. Because in early game who get faster spell for summoning will just snowball, I know You need to count on summoning Hobbits or Drunedain or Shelob, but sometimes You just can't avoid. Plus, it is easier to balance when they are weaker. You did great job with Rohan aid and reduce time duration and cooldown of Army of Death and it would be great.
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#3 von AulëTheSmith am 18 Sep, 2017 23:39
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I really expected such a thread to appear much earlier. Great to see that the community tries to support the creation of the new spellbooks.
This comments of yours, just made me reflect deeply. I mean, since the day I joined the community (around April it was) I more or less always proposed my ideas and/or agree disagree others that I like/dislike. Besides, I never thought about the present work (and how to help/improve) of the team so much. I simply "waited" impatiently the news to come. Now that I think about it, I feel a bit "selfish", since you and all the team are spending hours and hours to improve this game in a significant way with 4.5 patch.
Anyway hands up for Kreso, who is the first one that sparked this type of debate
And also : as for the central spell, the nature of the faction is for sure knowledge and advanced military, but it seems just very powerful in this sense, without needing of further improvements. Another very iconic characteristic of Rivendell, is that in the hobbit and Lotr it is a resting place for travelers, the center of meetings in which very important decisions are made. So I would go with something like that for the central spell; some passive spell that helps heroes (but in different way with respect to Theoden).
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#4 von Walküre am 19 Sep, 2017 21:55
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May anyone be absolutely free to propose any idea or concept in one's mind; to provide precious feedback and to make their voice be heard and resound throughout the halls of this forum. Discussions, when constructive and on-point, are always a source of positive outcomes for the broad community. Whether a new proposal be finalised or not, activity lights a gleam of hope and participation. Therefore, none should ever be wary of the very value of his own suggestions, if they stir interest and passion. Keeping this space alive and lit is honestly the best reward I could ever be granted, as a moderator, and I'm certain that I may even speak on behalf of the developers. Only in this way will you help the progress of the project and aid the internal forum's endeavours
Regarding what has been proposed, I second FG's words and the majority of the aforementioned considerations. I deem Elrond's design much effective and conceptual at the present state; hence, I couldn't see the propriety of tying him to a central spell or whatsoever akin feature. As for what entails Erestor, I would really like to find alternative implementations for his character, which suffers from the known replica issue: having as many replicas of the said hero as many citadels you have in your government. -
#5 von Garlodur am 20 Sep, 2017 13:22
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@AulëTheSmith I suppose the behaviour of most of the community is justified by the virtue of patience
After all, the reason why some of us are so active on this forum is because we think of the Edain Mod even when we're not playing it (even excessively at times). It's a sign of a true community building around a videogame, a phenomenon we witness more as socially acceptable. All I am saying is that the ones we are still very active on the forum these days have obviously projected their thoughts towards the possible changes in the remaining faction spellbooks.
As we have been told however, at different moments in the development of the mod, it is hard to criticize and discuss things that have not been published yet. As such we are very much in the area of speculation (until the Team releases us from our anguish, at least concerning Imladris).
Nevertheless I want to leave a quick remark. I am of the opinion that Erestor has been moved to the spell book by the Team. He is already fixed to the citadel where all other Spells are issued, and it makes it more user-friendly to use him from the edge of the screen rather than from the Citadel. His effects will have to be changed to incorporate settlement and outpost buildings, but I think this is easy enough to fix by excluding the Dunedain Outpost. The outpost is arguably one of the most efficient already, and Halbarad has one ability that increases recruitment speed.
As for the Hobbits, they can be turned into a defensive option in a simple manner by tying them to the Hobbit Farms in the way the Drúedain are tied to the Púkel Statues in Rohan's new Spellbook. Or, the Hobbit Farms start out every game without the Creep-protection but the passive spell unlocks them again. Or, a combination of both options, in which the permanent regiment of stick-bearing Hobbits is strengthened by a battalion of Hobbit Archers.
The Central Spell, finally, should not be focused on Elrond but on Arwen, or more precisely the Evenstar. I view the Evenstar as the symbol of the waning power of the High Elves in Middle Earth, as it has been so portrayed in PJ's movies, but even in the books. I cannot grasp the full depth of its powers (in Tolkien universe and in-game) but I am positive the Team has come up with a marvellous interpretation.
Strength to all! -
#6 von Canis carcharothias am 20 Sep, 2017 22:56
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Well, I want to give this a little push, so I'll post my ideas and maybe it can help.
Imladris in the lore, is the reclusive home of the Noldo in Midde Earth. Music, healing, knoweledge and the longing for the light of Aman are common themes in this faction.
I propose the next spellbook tree, with an straightforward offensive column and a more exclusive defensive column, centered in the concept of the sanctuaries. This rises from the fact that Rivendell is a sactuary for the good in middle earth, a place for travelers to rest and seek aid and a safe haven where relics, knoweledge and arts are preserved.
DEFFENSIVE:
1- Sanctuary: Summons a sanctuary (that typical building seen in Rivendell that looks like an upside-down basket, with a small forest). The sanctuary can only be summoned near a player's building. It heals units near it and gives a long lasting exp adquiring buff to any traveler (heroe) that visits it. There's a max number of them
2- Luthien's song: The same, can only be casted near sanctuaries. Elves love singing in forests, it seems, and outside of the city (In the Valley, Ha! Ha!...........) and which could be a better place to hear the sound of Luthien than in a sacred place in a small forest?
3- White council (leftmost): But different for the old one, which doesn't work as far as I know. Summon heroes depending of the number of sanctuaries erected. More heroes or better ones as more sactuaries you have. Can only be summoned in a sanctuary. The succesive improvements in the sactuary aims for a high-commitment-high-reward choice for the player, as they have to protect the sanctuaries during the battle to get the best reward from this spell.
3- Light of Aman (right): Same as always.
4- Flood: A way is needed to make flood defensive, not related to sanctuaries, because you can reach it from the middle.
OFFENSIVE
1- Horn/weapons of the Noldo: Buffs attack with long lasting effect
2- Breeze of Manwe
3left- Hobbits: For reducing the amount of summons in this tree, hobbits could become something related to the hobbit farms, like proposed by creso.
3right- Tom Bombadil
4- Las alliance
CENTER
Evenstar, but with more emphasis to heroes near Arwen.
It's quite a change from the original concept, but Imladris is very centered in the knoweledge part right now and less centered in the travelers refuge and music haven that it is in my opinion. Also, we get rid of eagles!
Hope it helps, in any way possible.
Cheers to all!
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#7 von kreso am 21 Sep, 2017 02:27
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I really like that Sanctuary+White Council.
White Council summons, Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel around Elrond or Sanctuary and it heals it or repair. Galadriel and Gandalf have only basic attack(aoe) while Gandalf have his wizard blast. This could fit perfectly with Imladris, instead of Eagles, Eagles were also flexible but I think White Council will be more deffensive because of restriction of summoning.
Tom Bombadil is bad atm, really don't like him, but he is only thing that can be used for counter to unit spam and he is not doing his job atm. I thing he needs buffs or some changes. One of them is that, you can spawn him anywhere, in middle of clump and he will knock back in medium area all enemies. And nice feature will be that he is uncontrollable and can not be killed and ofc reduce his time. (He forget that u called him and he disappear). He is one of the strongest characters described in the books and in game he die every time before half of his timer is out. Poor Bombadil..
U really want to see Arwen in central spell?
I really don't. She is not for Imladris like Saruman is for Isengard and Theoden for Rohan. She needs to be 800 Hero (nerf her stats and abilities, give her leadership that units around her are fearless) and implement skill of upgrade Arwen, 3rd row for defensive spell. So now improved Arwen get some of her stats, get her passive as it is now(no need for changing a lot of things, I think this would be good change). About Evenstar, should that back Aragorn back to Imladris? (like in hero Submod) I like that idea but it is hard to balance it so i think that is bad. Aragorn is already in new Rohan spellbook (my suggestion from years ago ).
Evenstar is fixed to Arwen and Aragorn in timeline of WoTR. I play Imladris a lot in multiplayer and their central spell need to be around units.
Luthien's song can be used offensively we need to adjust it.
Last Alliance is great and I will not comment that spell, only, could we make them defensively if Flood cant be defensive spell? I don't have lorewise facts that we could bring them(LA) back to life. So it is upon us to decide what is the best for gameplay.
Btw I don't like Flooding, it is Elrond plus Gandalf skill to summon it. And atm is very weak compared to other 4th row spells, compare to Army of the Dead.. Maybe it could be more defensive if you could put it passively: Elrond get buff to his 1.lvl skill that only he can summon it, get shot cd and medium area. It could be defensive and it would buff Elrond more. Atm I don't see him used frequently 2500, weakest hero for that cost. He can NOT kill mass or kill other heroes, scales well, but too much to pay for him. Lvl5 is his power spike if u get him on that lvl he becomes worth of investments. Put that leadership to lvl 3? Same case for Eomer, he is worth at lvl3.
So central spell could be named "Immortal, wisest and fairest" quote from prologue of TFoTR
Effect: Passive: Every unit get 50% experience faster, upon reaching max lvl they get trample and knockback immunity. Also affect heroes with half (25%) effect.
What do you think?
sry for english..
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#8 von Canis carcharothias am 21 Sep, 2017 09:07
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Nice to hear you liked it! I have been a little bit conservative because I wanted to resume the important changes, but yes, totally, Bombadil needs a rework.
Not being that conservative, I would prefer to have a more general spell in the center. One that buffs units, as you said, or heroes. If it's the unit buff, the evenstar could be moved down to the left, removing light of Aman, which has, sorry Walküre, a lot in common with cloud break.
Luthien's song, could only be casted near sanctuaries. That is what makes it more defensive and gives the player more means to defend them.
I don't think flood is going to get removed, it's too iconic. Las alliance could be defensive, and flood offensive, buffing it but making it appear with a delay so that it is not too OP. First you hear Arwen's iconical speech with increasing volume (10 seconds?) and then a very big and devastating flood appears. It's like a nuclear launch in Starcraft, if you miss it, you are done, and I think we have nothing like that in Edain. And yes, I know that in the books is Elrond who makes the flood.
PD: Another Aragorn is maybe too much.
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#9 von Bowshot 999 am 21 Sep, 2017 11:54
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First.
Cool that you want to help the Edain team
Some of these ideas, such as the White Council, Luthien or Erestor, I would imagine that they can make it into the game maybe
Secondly
You are absolutely right Tom Bombadil should be strengthened
BUT
I would as a central spell somehow take a healing or enhancement spell as the game prinzie of Imladris basks on strong but smaller troops -
#10 von Gandalf7000 am 22 Sep, 2017 14:10
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I like the idea of Sanctuary+White Council. I made the suggestio about implementing the White Council in Imladris as wel so I second this suggestion.
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#11 von NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 23 Sep, 2017 03:20
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Sanctuaries sound great.
The White Council might be problematic, given how a good deal of its known members (Elrond, Gandalf, Cirdan, Gil-Galad) already being represented in Imladris.
Conceivably, this spell would summon only Saruman, Galadriel, and (perhaps) Radagast. Maybe the Blue Wizards, but that would stretch it, I think. Which, I admit, is still pretty damn powerful.
Given their relatively low number, perhaps on top of influencing how many heroes appear, the number of sanctuaries present increases their timer and/or stats? -
#12 von Canis carcharothias am 23 Sep, 2017 09:22
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It's a tier 3 spell; summoning those 3 heroes is quite a lot! We have a lot to play with, we don't have to put those three heroes together, we can sort them by strenght.
Also, there were lot's of White Councils, and even more councils that were not treated as "White Councils". One more, at least: the Council of Elrond.
If we take these councils more loosely, we have a lot of options for good (in the moral sense) heroes that can be summoned with this spell, and maybe, if you have all the sanctuaries, you summon the three from the white council (if you want to have Radagast there). Those are just options, variations on a theme.
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#13 von Walküre am 23 Sep, 2017 22:25
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I like the idea of Sanctuary+White Council. I made the suggestio about implementing the White Council in Imladris as wel so I second this suggestion.
Many have already proposed a similar suggestion in the past. I reckon the White Council sequence in the films and its lore in the books boast a very charming effect on the community; for people who are totally fond of the White Council motive, and that caters for me equally, there couldn't be a more fashionable and appropriate proposal than this. Alas, this concept has always been flawed from the beginning of the English Community, of which I still have memory. Namely, there are a couple of problems worthy of note.
1. The prime dispute: Rivendell is set in the War of the Ring timeline, leaving aside the happenings of the Hobbit and the meetings of the Wise of Middle-earth.
2. Saruman, one time-chief of the assembly, would not be a serviceable hero for the summoning spell, having become the fallen wizard during LOTR and leading the forces of Isengard for the destruction of Men's world. Excluding him from the spell would be a major loss, for he's a pivotal character in the events narrated in the Hobbit (White Council).
3. We have come to the pure lore: the White Council was not disbanded after Saruman's treason, if I recall correctly, and the renewed Gandalf the White was appointed to be its head. But the council itself didn't play a significant part as an institution, as war was infuriating. Gandalf had to rekindle the resistance of Gondor, Elrond was busy with keeping his domain safe and Galadriel was defending her realm from the assaults of Dol Guldur. The council was not therefore active as it used to be in the erstwhile times.
I just tell you that there is a very unique spell which is to be part of the new spellbook. It deals with a different theme, albeit comprising an innovative motive which is equal to the uniqueness that a hypothetical White Council spell would present. -
#14 von Canis carcharothias am 24 Sep, 2017 22:52
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Hello there Walk!
I woul not center in the White Council as it is. There have been lots of councils in Imladris, some of them White, some of them not so white, like the meeting with the dwarves and gandalf and the Council of Elrond. I didn't focus on the White council when writing this proposal, the name given to it was a means to recall the similitude between the proposed and the old spell, I might have not done this properly.
With this premise:
1- TIME: Not only we are pretty lax when it comes to sustain some correctness in the time-consistency of spells (Last alliance, Bandobras Tuk, Luthien's Song and even Breeze of Manwë and light of Aman (Those only in the Imladris spellbook)), but also, some meetings were made during the War of the Ring.
2- HERO SELECTION: As explained above, "White Council" is just a badly put name, we could call it "Rivendell council". There have been men, dwarves, elves, Istari and even hobbits in a council in Imladris, so, in this "What if" story that is Edain, we could have another council that could result in the aid of other heroes of any faction (Mirkwood, Erebor, Lothlorien...).
Yes, the final one, with the max number of sanctuaries could be some members of the White Council, but that is just another option of the possible ones.
PD: Can we exhort you to give just a hint of information about this new spell?