[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities

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dkbluewizard:
I AM IN FAVOR OF THIS AWESOME CONCEPT

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: Walküre am 11. Okt 2017, 15:38 ---I have no other words to add to the ones I have already written. This is a wonderful concept and you, Aulë, have proved yourself a great craftsman of ideas and proposals. Marvellously written and conceived ;)

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Thank you very much for your kind words Walküre the wisest and most skilled  :)
Also, thank you for your help in the editing of the post, i probably exaggerated in saving space, using too much the spoiler's button  :D :D Now it is more visible.


--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 12. Okt 2017, 06:50 ---I AM IN FAVOR OF THIS AWESOME CONCEPT

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--- Zitat von: Dain@ am 11. Okt 2017, 22:58 ---I apologize AulëTheSmith for my criticism. But you definitely get my vote +1. Bravo !!! And yes, I almost forgot the ring system just super, which is only gold armor !!! Elegant work AulëTheSmith !!!

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I've inserted both of you in the in favour list. Thank you very much for your support guys. Don't be afraid to share your critics, i'm the first one to be happy if we reach an optimal point through this thread. This goal can be reached only passing through critics and discussions :) it is the salt of the forum.
Some claryfications:


--- Zitat von: Halbarad am 11. Okt 2017, 19:35 ---Tribute System
I like your idea of leveling him with money, but by using this system you can get Smaug way too early. Especially factions Imladris would have really big problems against a 500 ress Smaug in the early game. His first appearance should be in the lategame like Drogoth did in Edain 3.8.1. Smaug and other dragons shouldn't be the center of Misty Mountains. It should stay focused on Orcs, Wargs, and trolls. And the most important effect of Misty Mountains central spell should not be related to an outpost building.

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- About the tribute system you are probably right: as also Walküre wrote, it wisely needs some cost increasing. I shall modify the values. But, consider that you have to spend at least 800 resources to build the outpost, and then other 500 to have Smaug for 2 minutes, so a total of 1300. It is not a negligible amount in early game :)
i think anyway that could be a problem if you are against late game factions: even if you don't destroy your enemy (2 minutes are not sufficient), you could cause severe damages. So a cost of at least 750 it is more balanced for the level 1 tribute.
I don't agree with the central spell issue: Smaug and fire-drakes will be a special feature of MM and MM only. MM will be only possibility to play with dragons in the entire game, and because of removal of Drogoth, Smaug will be the only dragon leader of the entire game. Dragons are a very special characteristic of MM;orcs,trolls and wargs/wolves are instead shared with other evil factions. Because of this uniqueness i think Smaug and/or the other dragon breeds worth to be inserted in the central spellbook, along with the other monsters of MM.
Following the logic of infesting/pillaging which is the central theme of my spell, dragons are the best (and powerful) example of this pludering and stealing nature.
About the outpost issue: MM will have a partial free-building system, so that you will have, at the beginnig, only the Moria's base. All the other sub-faction/monster lairs need an existing outpost or the construction of the new one with the just mentioned free-building mechanic. Therefore, i think outposts need to be involved in my central spell anyway. I don't see any particular problem in this sense :)

Halbarad, can i list you as in favour? Do you prefer to think more about the proposal and see how it will evolve?


--- Zitat von: Dain@ am 11. Okt 2017, 22:58 ---Dear AulëTheSmith . It's just brilliant and insanely good work. Your proposal deserves praise. Great ideas and very beautiful icons for abilities. Truly a worthy offer. As for the abilities of Smaug, I give you my voice +1. But I would like to clarify a few points.
1) What is the essence of the Dragon's disease ability?
2) For the ability "My claws are spears" only suggest adding + 25/30% armor against spearmen. This will give the best effect for a breakthrough through the ranks of enemies.
3) How the ability of the "Hypnotic Gaze" works. I support your vision of the essence of this ability, but how do you propose to implement it? It will be an analog of a powerful fear ability that will also spread to heroes (passive ability as nazgul, only more powerful), or on the contrary it will be an active ability that will weaken an individual hero ???
But I am categorically opposed to the fact that Smaug was central to the book of spells. I believe that the best place for Smaug is the last attacking ability for 10 points. The reason is simple, Despite the fact that even for me Smaug is one of the most beloved heroes, and thanks to you AulëTheSmith and your proposal, so also the most beautiful along with the Necromancer, but nevertheless my answer is simple: the central ability should reflect the essence of the faction, and in this case the specific character of the orcs of the Misty Mountains. I personally lean towards a raid. The essence of it in the following: receiving money, and updating the armor and weapons at the expense of dead enemies. (update armor and weapons only apply to goblins, for trolls and others will have to buy). Also, despite the confluence of circumstances, since the goblins and dragons fought against the dwarves, Smaug was not once in league with the goblins. But if this argument may seem a little I offer a few more nuances for discussion:
1) Smaug too strong for a stationary hero
2) Smaug as a stationary hero leads to an imbalance, the Misty Mountains already have Bolg (a very strong tank / leader), Azog, the Great Goblin, the leader of the goblins of Moria, Tom, Beal and Burt. Well, do not forget about the Super Balrog;
3) What ability can be offered for 10 points ??? if it's not Smaug.
So, if we summarize all of the above, then I propose the following: What would Smaug be a recruiting hero for 10 points. But thanks to your proposal dear AulëTheSmith with the tribute system you can adjust the time of the call of Smaug. I do not know about you, but it seems to me that this will be the best compromise for the Misty Mountains.
I apologize AulëTheSmith for my criticism. But you definitely get my vote +1. Bravo !!! And yes, I almost forgot the ring system just super, which is only gold armor !!! Elegant work AulëTheSmith !!!

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"My claws are spears" : considering it is a level 7 ability, could be a good idea to increase the armor against revenge damage up to +30-50%. After all, he is a big and very well armored dragon ;)

"Hypnotic Gaze": a temporary conversion of a single enemy hero would be a good idea. My first post in this forum was this kind of proposition but for Sauron. Now that i think about it, Smaug could be a good candidate for this power. I would like to know what was the initial meaning of this power when the team had this idea  [ugly]

"Dragon Sickness": it comprises the very nature of Smaug. He steals resources wherever he goes because is very greedy. Basically he doesn't care about the difference between allies and enemies when it comes to treasures.

I think a 10 points spell would be too much if you must also spend 3000 additional resources to build him. With the current system, that is the path if you want a permanent Smaug:
- purchase of the outpost (around 800 resources or more)
- leveling up of the Dragon Lair, which means you have to recruit drakes, which are very expensive! (at least 1000 each)
- purchase of the central spell of 5 points.
- with a level 3 lair and the central spell unlocked you have to spend, finally, 3000 resources.
- considering you recruited 3 drakes (to level up the Lair) we have 3000 resources, plus the final cost we have a total of 6000, plus the cost of the outpost we are around 6800-7000 resources (+ 5 spellbook's points). it is a very high cost  [ugly]. if you compare him with other mass slayers (Gandalf,Saruman), Smaug's total price is more than double.
- finally, you have to do all of this avoiding your enemy to destroy the Dragon Lair, which is more vulnerable than usual citadels (very well protected).

Also, considering the last news: i would not bind Smaug to a specific side (long term) of the new spellbooks' system. I think there are many other good ideas for a long term 10 pp power in contrast to the quick and powerful Balrog (logically placed in the short-term/offensive side).

 
 

Walküre:
Smaug as a central spell would be the only logical solution, if we are to tie him to the spellbook in the first place. Otherwise, there wouldn't be many other options, I guess. The legacy of the Balrog representing one of the ultimate powers should be absolutely maintained, and it will serve the logic of the short-term branch of the very spellbook. Hypothetical Smaug-related spells won't simply stand a chance against the memory of the Balrog; even worse scenario, Smaug would be a terrible long-term spell, by the strictest definition. Thus, the central position of the feature might be the compromise we need find.

The character itself is just too relevant in the new Hobbit-fashioned design of the faction. It is why I don't think that comparing things with how the previous version of the faction used to fare could bring many useful arguments. The pivotal theme of greed and infestation would be kept anyway.

AulëTheSmith:
Just an update guys: i've scaled the values of tributes system, now it is more expensive.
I repeat what i wrote in the concept: values can change, both regarding time and resources. This is valid for all the features of the concept.
Consider also that values need to be tested directly in game, something cleary not possible at the moment. I simply put some values i deem more reasonable, but the final proof will be the feedbacks of betatesters  ;)

Artificialis:
I like the idea of Smaug having both a ground and flying form based on the animations of Summoned Dragon and Drogoth from the original game. I also like the different abilities you have proposed. Although it would probably make the Misty Mountains way too powerful, I would not mind having Smaug as a stationary hero. Especially if he would have all of these abilities. I do not want him to disappear before I used all of his abilities you know. :P But perhaps it is for the best if he becomes one of the two final spellbook powers, the Balrog being the other one.

I would love to see Smaug make an appearance in the game. I would be happy with many incarnations of the character, but your concept for Smaug is definitely something I support. I am also very much in favor of having a golden Smaug as the factions ring-hero. Which could just be a simple reskin of the character model.

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