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The Black Riders: Hunters of the Ring von Julio229 am 10 Apr, 2018 18:43
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The Black Riders: Hunters of the Ring
Black Riders are an heroic battalion belonging to the Mordor faction. Their will is their lord's, and so, their abilities are unlocked as their master's power grows. In the current patch, 4.4.1, they seem to be quite underused because they pretty much fulfill the same purpose as all of the other Nazgûl, and don't seem to have a defined purpose. Moreover, I think the “Hunter” nature of the Nazgûl is one that should be emphasized. This is currently reflected on the Ringhunter upgrade for the Dark Marshal and Shadow Lord. However, the Ringhunter form of these heroes isn't as used as the unveiled forms. So, in this proposal, I will try to:
1. Give the Black Riders a more defined purpose.
2. Make them reflect the hunter nature of the Nazgûl ingame.
Powers of the Black Riders
Level 1: Mount/Dismount
This would be kept from the old powers of the Black Riders, since the concept of a mounting/dismounting heroic battalion is unique and quite fitting for the Black Riders (and a central idea for this concept).
Level 1: Dread Visage: This ability lowers nearby enemy units' damage and armor by 10% and cancels all their leadership bonuses. For every Nazgûl nearby the effect is amplified by an additional 5%. (Passive ability)
This ability is also quite fitting and iconic for the Black Riders, and it gives them “synergy” with the rest of the Nazgûl, so it should stay aswell.
Level 4 (when mounted): Unrelenting Hunt: The Black Riders are tasked with hunting an enemy of their master, and they will not stop hunting him. Select an enemy Hero, and for one minute (or until the Hero is dead), them and other Nazgûl will get an attack bonus and a speed bonus when they are near the hunted hero.Zitat“Now they are slaves to his will. They are the Nazgûl, Ringwraiths, neither living or dead. Drawn to the power of the One. They will never stop hunting you” - Aragorn
This ability should reflect the hunter aspect of the Ringwraiths, and how they pursued Frodo and his company until they reached the Fords of Bruinen. As they are slaves to his master's will, and his power has been increasing again, he can command them to hunt for someone, same as they went to the other side of Middle-Earth to hunt for the Ring. This way, they should be more defined as hero hunters, also helping the purpose of Hero-Killing that the Nazgûl in general have. As such, the boni will apply to all of them.
Alternative by NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t: Instead of the attack and speed bonus, the hero would share vision with the Black Riders as long as those are alive.
Level 4 (when on foot): Morgul Blade: The Nazgûl stab the targeted enemy with Morgul blades, poisoning them over time. If the unit dies while the effect is active, they will become a Lesser Wraith, which is invisible to enemies but has no attack. This will also cripple the target.
This ability is also quite iconic, but it will be a bit changed, only being available on foot. This means it can be used in conjunction with the Unrelenting Hunt power. The Ringwraiths, as seen on Weathertop, would hunt their enemy in an unstoppable way, and then, once their prey is before them, they would unmount and use the Morgul Blade on their enemy. As said, this should reflect their nature of hunters a bit better, in my humble opinion.
Level 7: Screech (Either always available or only available while Unrelenting Hunt is active): The Nazgûl screech and their enemy, cowering in fear, is slowed down for a short time.
This ability would be a different take on the iconic Screech from the Nazgûl. While the rest of Nazgûl would keep their Screech untouched, the Black Riders would get a new take on it. Once they are hunting an enemy, their screech would not make enemies run away from them, but instead, to help their purpose of Hunters, it would slow down the Hero they are pursuing. This would make them even more effective at the hunting purpose, and due to it coming for a level 7 Sauron, it would come reasonably “late” in a match.
Level 10: Touch of Blackness (power as made by Oakenshield224): The Black Breath is a terrible poison which the Nazgul exhale.
First option: Units that are located further from the Nazgûl start suffering slow poison damage, while the nearer they are, the stronger the damage gets.
Second option: Heroes that are located further from the Nazgûl (or only the Hero under the effect of Unrelenting Hunt) start suffering slow poison damage, while nearby Heroes suffer more damage and their attack weakens.
Adding to it, idea by Aulë:
All close heroes suffer slow poison damage, but if a hero is under the effect of Morgul Blade, that hero will suffer more poison damage, while if they are under the effect of Unrelenting Hunt, they will not only suffer the poison damage, but also a damage and armor debuff.
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This should be all. It would make, in my opinion, using the Black Riders a lot more interesting and give them a more defined and unique role that doesn't just recycle their fellow Nazgûl abilities and changes the utility of them, and would reflect their currently unexplored nature of hunters at the service of the Dark Lord.
I'd really want to know your opinions on this, Do you feel this is good? Do you think there's something which could be improved, or that all of it is bad? Feel free to state your opinion!
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#1 von OakenShield224 am 10 Apr, 2018 19:14
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I find this idea really interesting. I've always found the Black Riders in Edain to be quite weak and not worth it (except for to give a Sauron a level). So reading a proposal like this is good. A few ideas:
- Maybe the effect of Unrelenting Hunt could increase when the target is a Ring Hero. I don't know how balanced this would be but it would fit thematically.
- The whole idea is that they are hunters with them being a menace from afar but more dangerous when they get close to their target. They get stronger when closer, can slow down their target, and can also use their morgul blades. The Level 10 could be similar, so enemies in a medium radius are slowly poisoned but it wouldn't do too much damage. Enemies who are closer would suffer even more and take more damage. An alternative would be that heroes in a small radius (or maybe the target of Unrelenting Hunt) would have reduced damage for that time while also being poisoned.ZitatSome said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman.... Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled.
ZitatOne was muttering; and the other was whispering, or hissing.... I did not creep any closer, because I began to tremble all over. Then I felt terrified, and I turned back..., when something came behind me and I... I fell over...I had an ugly dream, which I can't remember. I went to pieces. I don't know what came over me.
ZitatTerror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side.
ZitatOut of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.
It is a bit of a theme with the Nazgul that their presence leads to people being unable to fight. -
#2 von Julio229 am 10 Apr, 2018 19:15
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Those are quite good ideas
I think the balance wouldn't be an issue with Ring Heroes (they are supposed to be out of balance, from what I know, anyway) and I really like your level 10 idea!
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#3 von NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 11 Apr, 2018 06:39
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I like this idea. It fits quite well and would probably help the Nazgul gain some more utility.
I wonder how imbalanced it would be if the bonus of Unrelenting Hunt affected the other Nazgul as well, given how there seems to be a theme where the Nazgul are strongest together. -
#4 von AulëTheSmith am 11 Apr, 2018 11:50
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I like your ideas Julio! They fit perfectly, defining better the role of the five Nazgul
In a similar way i agree with Oak about lev 10 ability: close enemy heroes are poisoned, while it would be cool if the ability is more effective against the Nazguls' main target. For example if the hero is under the effect of Morgul blade, The Black Breath increase further the poison rate. If he's the target of Unrelenting Hunt, he sees his damage and armor reduced because of The Black Breath. -
#5 von Darkayah am 11 Apr, 2018 13:51
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It is a nice idea.
This concept defined the ringhunter role better.
But what i‘m Missing is the „find Gollum“ ability.
Do you want it just as passive in the background or just forgot it? -
#6 von Julio229 am 11 Apr, 2018 14:12
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I like this idea. It fits quite well and would probably help the Nazgul gain some more utility.
I wonder how imbalanced it would be if the bonus of Unrelenting Hunt affected the other Nazgul as well, given how there seems to be a theme where the Nazgul are strongest together.
Thanks for the feedback!
On the Unrelenting Hunt issue, I envisioned it as giving the bonus to all of them because of that, them being strongest together, but if it gets too imbalanced, it could always be changed. I think that it only applying near the targeted unit is sort of a good balance measure, but if it would be too OP, the bonus could be only for the battalion itself.I like your ideas Julio! They fit perfectly, defining better the role of the five Nazgul
In a similar way i agree with Oak about lev 10 ability: close enemy heroes are poisoned, while it would be cool if the ability is more effective against the Nazguls' main target. For example if the hero is under the effect of Morgul blade, The Black Breath increase further the poison rate. If he's the target of Unrelenting Hunt, he sees his damage and armor reduced because of The Black Breath.
Thanks, Aulë!
I really like that idea about the Black Breath being a bit more unique and different in the effect, if that's possible engine-wise, it could be a good thing to implement! If you are fine with it, tell me and I think I'll add it to the power (giving you credit for it, of course!)It is a nice idea.
This concept defined the ringhunter role better.
But what i‘m Missing is the „find Gollum“ ability.
Do you want it just as passive in the background or just forgot it?
Thanks, Darkness!
You mean the ability Ring Hunters have? I honestly never understood how it exactly worked, so I may have left it a bit apart, as it doesn't seem to be in their palantir powers I could add it, though, but I'm not sure about how it works.
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#7 von NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 12 Apr, 2018 06:47
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I like this idea. It fits quite well and would probably help the Nazgul gain some more utility.
I wonder how imbalanced it would be if the bonus of Unrelenting Hunt affected the other Nazgul as well, given how there seems to be a theme where the Nazgul are strongest together.
Thanks for the feedback!
On the Unrelenting Hunt issue, I envisioned it as giving the bonus to all of them because of that, them being strongest together, but if it gets too imbalanced, it could always be changed. I think that it only applying near the targeted unit is sort of a good balance measure, but if it would be too OP, the bonus could be only for the battalion itself.
I think the problem here lies with the Witch-King, whose Visage already debuffs the damage and nearby enemy heroes as well as enemy units, and this debuff also is stronger with nearby Nazgul, in addition to already granting those Nazgul a boost to speed, vision, AND damage.
Combine this with Unrelenting hunt, then the Nazgul become the Ultimate Hero Killing Squad, which might be a problem...
Perhaps replacing the attack boost with something more tactical? Maybe the target hero shares vision so long as the Nazgul are alive? -
#8 von Julio229 am 12 Apr, 2018 17:09
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I like this idea. It fits quite well and would probably help the Nazgul gain some more utility.
I wonder how imbalanced it would be if the bonus of Unrelenting Hunt affected the other Nazgul as well, given how there seems to be a theme where the Nazgul are strongest together.
Thanks for the feedback!
On the Unrelenting Hunt issue, I envisioned it as giving the bonus to all of them because of that, them being strongest together, but if it gets too imbalanced, it could always be changed. I think that it only applying near the targeted unit is sort of a good balance measure, but if it would be too OP, the bonus could be only for the battalion itself.
I think the problem here lies with the Witch-King, whose Visage already debuffs the damage and nearby enemy heroes as well as enemy units, and this debuff also is stronger with nearby Nazgul, in addition to already granting those Nazgul a boost to speed, vision, AND damage.
Combine this with Unrelenting hunt, then the Nazgul become the Ultimate Hero Killing Squad, which might be a problem...
Perhaps replacing the attack boost with something more tactical? Maybe the target hero shares vision so long as the Nazgul are alive?
Yeah, I think the shared vision could work. I didn't want to make it too similar to Lurtz's level 10 power, but if it avoids the other issue completely, I think it will work
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#9 von DrHouse93 am 27 Apr, 2018 11:25
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I think this is a great idea!
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#10 von Julio229 am 29 Apr, 2018 20:12
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#11 von Julio229 am 10 Jun, 2018 17:40
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Updated the main post reflecting the ideas proposed by AulëTheSmith and NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t on it (credit given, of course)!
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#12 von Captain Jin am 15 Aug, 2018 17:28
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I'm posting a concept here that I don't think is significant enough to warrant it's own thread while also being compatible with what you posted Julio. I apologize if my ideas are a little far fetched, but I definitely agree the Black Riders need some lovin' (and think the above posted ideas are brilliant). However, I've got ideas for a large scale Fellowship-based overhaul. Bear with me:
The Black Rider starts out as a single "scout" unit (potentially replacing Gorbag/Shagrat, who could be instead put in the Cirith Ungol Barracks). The Black Rider's level is untied to the Dark Lord's; their level is relative to their strength in numbers. This concept is closer to the Black Riders as they appeared in Fellowship from the Shire up until the Bruinen. At various levels, the Black Riders gain the ability to upgrade to their next stages (similar to Aragorn's progression).
Stage 1: The Black Rider (singular)
L1: Mount/Dismount
L1: Dread Visage.
L3: Shadows in the Dark: Ambient Screech; upgrades the Rider to the next Stage.
L7: Screech.
Stage 2: The Black Riders (2 units)
L1: Mount/Dismount
L1: Dread Visage
L4: Unrelenting Hunt*/Morgul Blade
L6: Shadows in the Dark
L7: Screech
Stage 3: The Black Riders (3 units)
L1: Mount/Dismount
L1: Dread Visage
L4: Unrelenting Hunt/Morgul Blade
L7: Screech
L8: Shadows in the Dark
L10: Black Breath*
Stage 4: The Black Riders (5)
L1: Mount/Dismount
L1: Dread Visage***
L4: Unrelenting Hunt/Morgul Blade
L7: Screech
L10: Black Breath
*Unrelenting Hunt: I'll be honest I'm not sure what the best way to implement this power is. I personally like the idea of a Hero being revealed as it gives a chance for the Black Riders to ambush people, along with the Nazgul already having one of the more potent passives in the game.
**Black Breath: My thoughts for a Black Breath power could be an active ability similar to Sauron's Shadow form attack, but with a poison over time effect. It works its way on the targets it passes through, lasting somewhere around 10 or 15 seconds. Enough to outright kill low health targets and keep Heroes on edge.
***At level 10 "Dread Visage" can be toggled to "Ring Hunters" which grants passive stealth reveal instead. There would be a moderately long minute cooldown between toggling.
At each Stage their cost to respawn increases significantly, Stage 1 being something closer to a Scout hero (around 600) and Stage 4 being closer if not more costly than they currently are. Each level should do little to upgrade their health/damage since their strength should be in their abilities and numbers.
Now I'm aware these changes are massive and incredibly over-complicated, however this would give the Black Riders more chance to be on the field and more useful throughout the game. As they are now, it's not until at least mid game that people even have the resources to get them, and at that point there are more important/powerful heroes and options to be selected. -
#13 von FG15 am 15 Aug, 2018 17:43
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Such a system isn't possible without massive bugs
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#14 von dgsgomes am 13 Nov, 2019 20:02
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I'd really want to know your opinions on this, Do you feel this is good? Do you think there's something which could be improved, or that all of it is bad? Feel free to state your opinion!
I support your suggestion! Fits more to the lore without hurting gameplay. Having the Black Riders stronger and the 2 "lesser" Nazgul weaker would be even better, as it would be more logic in my opinion.
Anyway, +1