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Autor Thema: Dwarven Outpost Discussion  (Gelesen 1478 mal)

OakenShield224

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Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« am: 4. Dez 2018, 18:03 »
Hello everyone!

I want to talk about something that hasn't really seen much discussion, but I feel is still important. This is the Dwarven outposts.

Ered Mithrin first: while the individual units are pretty unique and the building itself is really interesting, the dragonslayers are quite weak and aren't really used that much in games. The outpost itself is also one of the most expensive outposts in game (especially with all the upgrades), and so far it isn't really reflecting the cost.

Dale and Laketown is where the main issue is though. As of right now, the main use they have is resource generation and a forward outpost with a tower and a well. However, this isn't really a reason to choose it over the generic outpost which can be just as good of a forward base if you use the Stonemason upgrades to get the defensive buildplots. The units aren't useful beyond just having larger battalion sizes. The regular Ered Luin units are faster than the Laketown units, and the Erebor Axethrowers are better than the Dale Archers. Overall, the units just don't have a use in the dwarven factions as they currently stand. The same can be said of the heroes Bard and Brand. Both of them work around supporting the Laketown/Dale units, but if those units aren't bought then there isn't a reason to really get the heroes either. Brand's Inherited Black Arrow ability is decent but Erebor doesn't really need more high damage when they have heroes like Stonehelm. The same situation goes for Bard, except he deals an extra bonus to monsters and dragons which means that it would only be useful against Mordor (and Goblins in the future).

So now I've hopefully explained why the outposts need some reworking. The only question now is what to do with them which is what I want to ask here. One option is to nerf the Erebor axethrowers and to buff the Dale Archers, giving them more of a role in the faction. The same thing could work with the Ered Luin and Laketown archers. However, in both scenarios, it would still leave the pikemen and swordsmen without a use. The best case scenario would be the outposts to fill in something that the dwarves lack (like how Mirkwood offers tankier units to Lorien or Minas Morgul/Dol Guldur offers stronger orcs to replace the basic Mordor orcs) but the dwarves (especially Ered Luin) don't really lack anything that the outposts could then replace.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about this topic. What do you think should happen to the outposts?/

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Dez 2018, 21:59 »
This isn't so much what I think is best for those two outposts but rather what I'd like to see.

First of all I would like to see the dale archers become semi-elites limited to a certain number. They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease. They would come to compliment the Axethrowers' shorter range and allow the dwarves to hit enemy archers in the backline, since it is what it seems their ability are intended to help with. Perhaps their ability could even be changed to a temporary ability that makes them shoot black arrows for a short time in exchanged for reduced movement speed?

Much in that same fashion, Dale swordsmen would become the same semi-limited elites that excel at fighting other swordsmen thanks to their shield and skill and in addition can use their formation to catch up to the fleeing units if need be. Upgrading them with forged blades further improves that strength by allowing them to deal additional damage to swordsmen.

I don't have a specific concept in mind for the pikemen, can't just have them deal additional damage to pikemen that would be a weird synergy in my opinion. Following that if their price is reduced, Laketown soldiers could come in as cannon fodder and help with Ered Luin's army and have that as their unique edge.

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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Dez 2018, 00:54 »
They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease.

Totally agree with Necro on this point. I always think that the logic "weak units in large numbers" does not fit very well on Dale nor it does on Lake Town. Both the Towns have not a large army but rather few but well trained guards. What about reduce the number to 10 unit (with improved stats) and limit each type to three battallions at maximum?
I don't have new formations or new abilites in mind right now, but i would like to hear any new ideas that can make the two armies more useful as well as unique :)

Walküre

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Dez 2018, 16:47 »
I second the opinion that smaller battalions would suit the context better. Needless to say, rendering some of the exclusive units of both outposts (or all of them, as to say) elite would actually make said sub-factions a good deal more appealing. Balance and values aside, this might be a rather good start to move from, though I've not figured out how to keep the whole ensemble coherent yet. Logically, elite troops firstly exist as a prerogative of the main faction; the beating heart of the entire structure. So, one great challenge of whatever proposal would probably be to conceive a harmonious and detailed design that takes into consideration every single aspect we've hitherto hinted at.

A few possible guidelines that could help the debate develop:
1. What will be the general logic behind the concept? A quality-based one, or just a balance rearrangement?
2. If elite troops are to be included, they would necessarily need a set of distinctive features to dispose of.
3. How will all reconcile with the main Dwarven castle/camp? Dwarves already have a couple of unique tricks up their sleeve. Not only will suggestions have to fit well in the holistic portrait, but any distinct ability or mechanics should sport a satisfying degree of differentiation, too.

Anyway, I myself don't feel like proposing something specific, for now. I haven't pictured anything fixed or defined in my mind. I'll gladly let others take the initiative :)

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 15. Dez 2018, 20:18 »
Hello everybody!
Better late than never xD So I wil post here what I think about this topic. First of all I have to say I realy like the topic and the desire to talk about that dwarven outposts because I don't like two of them and the third I have never build so far 8-|

Dale and Lake Towen:
I (and many other multiplayer player) feel that they are very op because two of them on e.g. the map FoI2 give as much mony as the whole map. So I think that have to be nerved. But it shouldn't be that after that nobody build them. So I would say the units must get better. But I don't know how this could be managed because when that man of a towen who are the whole day fishing can fight better than a dwarve who is born for fighting it is not very logical [ugly]
Making them more quickly than dwarves only Erebor is effekted because Ered Luin is just quick. But even by Erebor it isn't a real reason to build that units of Dale. When you have some ideas how to make them more atracktive I would like to hear them!

Ered Mithrin:
I have never build that outpost so I don't know much about it but I will also write something to this. As OakenShield224 already said it is very expensive. I don't know how strong the units and the dragonslayer are so I can't say somethig to this 8-|
But I think it could also be a reason why it is so unatrctive that Iron Hills are so bad. Or better the other two dwarven factions are way better. And when in the multiplayer someone picks Iron Hills he wants to troll or he don't want to play an op faction like Erebor or ered Luin. So when this would be changed it might be that the Ered Mithrin outpost become more often used. :)

So I hope you understand my bad english [uglybunti]
Best regards Smeargollum
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Dez 2018, 20:22 von Smeargollum »

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 15. Dez 2018, 21:11 »
I agree with Aule on logic behind their armies. The regions have a large population to really justify a spam tactic. They don't really seem as a region to just throw soldiers at the enemy.

I agree on the idea that Dale can focus on longer range archers while the axe throwers (currently big glass cannons) become a bit more balanced. However, we'd then need to find a way of applying this too the other units as well. I do like Necro's idea of having them act as an anti-unit category counter.

One of the few things we see about Laketown's soldiers in the films is that they are mainly just guards. One idea could be that they act as a slower, defensive unit in the game, designed to support allied buildings (and the outpost especially). This could then contrast the fast, offensive Ered Luin units. What do you think?

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 15. Dez 2018, 21:26 »
A wild thought runs in my head....

Unlike the other realms of men, Laketown and Dale were always much smaller in size both surviving thanks to their alliance with other forces, Laketown with Mirkwood and Dale with Erebor. Dale was completely unable to hold out against the invasion of the Easterlings and only survived thanks to help of the dwarves, and laketown was never truly tested in combat apart from the battle of the five armies, which they brought only 200 or so people. Their main army force was the militia that kept the "peace" (read: beat up Bard), of course the regular people would still be able to grab weapons and hit the nearest enemy with it. So here's my best shot at a new concept for LakeTown:

Getting the housing upgrade now allows recruitment of Bard and of a unit called Roused Townsfolk
Getting the military section allows to train the usual milita units, "elite" troops with small battalion sizes and limited. Their abilities become more defensive oriented (oaks idea), meant to protect a city rather than fight on open fields.

Bard's leadership now switches between providing a big buff to the roused townsfolks (Men of the People) and providing a lesser buff to all Laketown units (Heir of Girion)

Roused townfolks are a spammable units with the old battalion sizes and stats of peasants? maybe weaker than peasants. I'm sure they could use a passive or an active ability but I don't have anything in mind rn.

Still a bit rough of an idea but that's basically it, current laketown infantry becomes restricted and elite-ish and rouse townfolks, a spammble units, becomes the bulk of your laketown force with bard as support.
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Julio229

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 15. Dez 2018, 23:29 »

I quite like this idea! Would it be the same for Dale, or would Dale have something different? Since maybe it wouldn't fit with Dale.


The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 15. Dez 2018, 23:38 »
It could be adapted to Dale but I personally feel like it wouldn't fit. Dale is a prosperous city, much more civilized with clearer separations. The standard of living is higher and there is no need to know how to fight to survive. They would be able to field a greater militia force but the townsfolk wouldn't know how to fight. So I would keep my other concept for Dale as it is, limit the Dale militia troops to like 4-5 and limit the Laketown militia troop to 3.
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OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #9 am: 16. Dez 2018, 16:52 »
I really like your idea Necro. And I agree that it wouldn't really fit with Dale.

Another potential idea that could be included is the concept of trade. I feel like it could be included in someway that to Dale, seeing as it had economic relations with Mirkwood, Erebor, Rhovanion, Rhun, and even Gondor after the War. If this is implemented in someway, it could be something else that could differentiate it from Lake Town.

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #10 am: 16. Dez 2018, 19:26 »
I have to say it sounds logic that the normal people of lake towen are on the level of pesants. But that unit you called Roused townfolk won't be build I think. Because when they are so weak there is no reason to build them imo. You have to get an outpost that costs 800 and then upgrad it with an upgrad that costs 400 or 500 (I don't remember right now). This is a lot of mony you have to pay for the opotunity to build a unit that is very weak. And also when they would cost about 100 resorces you could just pay 100 more and buy a gardian battelion. While you can recrute peasants since the first minute of the game you need a few minutes until you can recrute the Roused townfolk.
What do you think about this?
Sry for bad english 8-|
Best regards Smeargollum

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #11 am: 16. Dez 2018, 21:33 »
True that they would need to be incentivized. I'd like to point out however that the Housing Area would be built eventually since it allows the player to get resources from his building.  So being able to recruit this unit is just an extra bonus. However, you're right that the cost would be a problem considering how cheap standard dwarven infantry (those dwarves, always ready to fight over a couple pennies). The way I would do it is to reduce their CP and recruitment time. You could mass them more quickly and in larger number, in addition, once bard is recruited he could synergize with them to make them worth every penny. Perhaps a horde bonus too? Don't wanna make them OP but the current state of Dale and Laketown is sad, merely used as anchors on the map when their lore has so much to offer.
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Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #12 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:07 »
Good evening!
I think it would need a few things to make that unite well integrited:
1. The things that you sad (Horde bonus, low Cp cost and low recrutement time)
2. What about making the dwarven gardians a bit more expensive? Like on the level of
    the Uruk-Hai of Isengard. Because I think it would be quite cool and logic if the
    dwarves would cost more than Gondor soldirs. And if a change like this wouldn't
    destroy all kind of balance in this mod I would realy like to see it.
When the dwarves would get a bit more expensive it might be a reason to build some spamm units even is a later game.
What do you think about this?
Sry for bad english 8-|
Best regards Smeargollum

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #13 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:25 »
Making the guardians more expensive would force the user to build spam but it would make it impossible to play dwarves unless the stats of the guardians were also boosted. If the enemy dwarf is forced to get an outpost to survive then it becomes easy to guess his strategy, if you block the outpost they'll be unable to spam out troops. I don't think touching the current balance is a good idea, we should preferably work to incentivize the spam troops by making them more attractive standalone troops.

In my eyes, the current benefits from the the roused townfolks should be enough, they're a cheaper alternative to dwarves that you can mass rapidly and in greater numbers. In addition, with Bard and enough troops you get additional buffs.
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Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #14 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:58 »
Oh I forgott writing it but of course I meaned also to buff the stats of the dwarves. And I think forcing the dwarve to rush an outpost would be very boring and would make a campy game and nobody wants that.
But I think you are right that it would be better to leave the balance system unaffected.
Zitat
to incentivize the spam troops by making them more attractive standalone troops.
I don't have a idea how to make this in this example. Because the outpost comes late or at least later than the barracks for other spamm units. And in the game phase when the outpost can come there isn't a reason to build a spamm unit for me. And I can't thought of a role that this unite could have in the faction Ered Luin. Because the Ered Luin gardians are also very quick can fight better than the roused townfolk (without Bard) and are not very expensive. And instead of buying a oupost upgrade it for recruting units in it and getting Bard (that the  roused townfolk can fight much better) you can simply buy a Thorin and then your dwarves are much better. So I don't know which role this unite could get. I would like to hear which role you think would fit for this unit.
Best regards Smeargollum!