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Thranduil

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Tiberius Ogden:
Reworked Elvenking Thranduil

This Thranduil's rework leads to Grimbeorn's thread.

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35665.msg473156.html#msg473156
We think that the best Middle-earth warrior deserves more focused abilities for the time of War ... currently he provides common bonuses to units, can activate maggic bubble or summon peaceful feast. Not to mention that Galadriel is able to give him Palace guards that are probably hidden under her skirt.

So we stayed loyal to his portrayal in the movies - mass slayer and unit supporter and little reworked his skillset. Synergy between both roles, between Thranduil and his units, was something really important for us while crafting the new skillset.

Abilities:


--- Zitat --- Level 1: Noble wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.
--- Ende Zitat ---

https://youtu.be/2OMtzJWz6a8?t=20


We think that it fits not only to mass slayer hero, but also to army leader - example of synergy between roles.
 

--- Zitat --- Level 3: Mount/Dismount - Thranduil mounts/dismounts his mighty elk to ride/go on foot.
--- Ende Zitat ---




Such lovely elk deserves to be available earlier, than on the fifth level.


--- Zitat --- Level 5: Sindarin Armour - Thranduil puts on his battle armour, which gives him +25% to defense. His silver armour inspires nearby units and grants them +35% defense against monsters, heroic, elite and siege units. (Passive ability)
--- Ende Zitat ---





--- Zitat ---On 15 March, T.A. 3019, Sauron's army from Dol Guldur attacked Mirkwood. There was a long battle under the trees and the woods were set on fire, but in the end Thranduil was victorious.
--- Ende Zitat ---

It fits to 4.5. siege patch, too.


--- Zitat --- Level 7: Feasts of Mirkwood - Thranduil gives orders to begin a special feast which offers the best vine from Dorwinion. The feast generates resources, raises the command points by 50, reveals stealth units and slowly regenerates units and their abilities. If enemies get very near the feast, Elves will vanish immediately. The feast may only be summoned once at the same time.
--- Ende Zitat ---


Although we think that it fits into the spellbook (but Lorien's spellbook is currently overcrowded), we still wanted to keep such unique ability, even reworked it in order to fit more to Lorien gameplay.


--- Zitat --- Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him, which starts moving against enemies and attacking them. All allied units near Palace Guards, including the Elvenking, get +50% attack.
--- Ende Zitat ---


We moved famous ability to ultimate spot and added second row, because additional troops trough the gift seem strange. Otherwise it looks like that Galadriel has second row of troops under her skirt ...

You can see wonderful synergy between Thranduil and his troops. He fights for them and inspires them, and they fight for their king.


Thranduil can receive upgrade "Silver gem" through Gifts of Lorien.

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35645.msg472764.html#msg472764

What is problematic and what we removed completely:


--- Zitat ---Level 3: Arcane Shield - Thranduil surrounds himself in a magical barrier which absorbs incoming damage. The shield will be depleted after 10 hits and then automatically regenerated after 60 seconds. (Passive ability)

--- Ende Zitat ---


Definitely unique ability, fits for tank hero, but not for Woodland king Thranduil. Such magic exceeds even Maiar - for instance battle mage Gandalf. Also inspiration from Warcraft is obvious.
Maybe it would work for Nordor Glorfindel, but he already has similar and more lore-friendly tank abilities.
So we want to keep it that's why we suggest to move it to CaH. Fans of Elf lord class will have at least something really unique and well known.


We hope that you enjoyed reading and we are looking forward to debate with you about Edain's Thranduil!  xD

P.S. ...

I have task to mention that to implement Thranduil's stances was Tienety's idea ... https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/images/thranduil-on-deer#imagebox .... Such a modest guy!  :P

FOR

1. Tiberius Ogden
2. Walküre
3. officialNecro
4. TheOnlyTrueWitchking
5. AulëTheSmith
6. tolgayurdal
7. dkbluewizard
8. )-(albarad
9. Gandalf7000

Walküre:
I was about to address similar issues in your previous Mirkwood topic, but this one now looks the most appropriate for such type of feedback.

First of all, let us start with the concept:
Personally, I like every single suggestion, and I totally understand why, in your opinion, two of the current abilities need to slip in lower slots, being therefore available earlier. Really, there is not much to add to your work. On a literary, lore-based perspective, I fancy how his level-7 ability references his battle against the evils of the North. If I'm not mistaken, the Woodland King was well alive in the First Age, as he was (very likely) a Sindarin prince at the court of Elwë, in Doriath. Very significant connection ;)

Nevertheless, I would like to point out something, which I've been pretty fixated on for quite a long time. It's a kind of atavistic issue that keeps me awake at night. In front of it, changes on abilities or strategy move to the background of the holistic portrait. The problem I have with him is probably caused by an ill combination of his skills, but not solely because of his current power set. It's quite simple: I just don't like him, as a hero.

It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes. I don't like him. He looks slow, clumsy and sluggish. He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.
I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.

I might be completely misled, but I blame his current animation at large. It may have been the most viable choice, yet at what cost? The two aforementioned Elven sires are utterly amazing; though assigned to different roles, they do splendidly in battle. On the other side, I can barely move Thranduil around, without having the chance to prove his value. Again, we're talking about different roles and functions, but the comparison with his two Elven fellows is quite unforgiving, if you ask me.
I hope there will be room for a possible (needed) overhaul; not so much dissimilar to what has lately befallen our White Lady.


Concerning the last proposed ability, what doesn't seem to fully convince me is the fact that Palace Guards happen to be everywhere in the game. Theoretically, they should embody an imposing elite unit, and this they do beautifully. No complaints, except that the player may easily recruit battalions upon battalions of them. There's no limit. Wherefore, are we really sure that a shield wall (made entirely of such unit) could be enough unique for an ultimate feature? I believe there might be some differentiation problematics, there.

Additionally, Aragorn's own phantom wall already brings in the Mod an akin concept, even though its main purpose differs substantially with that of Palace Guards. I like the idea nonetheless, as it should explore his commander-like side, and we know that the Woodland King wages war only in very rare situations, when the own safety of the woods is in peril.

Said that, that's where the lancers from the Hobbit come to the rescue!
What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.



(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk

Halbarad:
I personally don't think that Tranduils dress doesn't work that well with his fighting abilities.
So when you recruit him, he does take a staff and two swords with him, got an ability to lead his troops into battle, but he doesn't take an armor with him?
Doesn't really suit him in my opinion. So if we want him to be that way, that he is someone who stays with his troops out of battle as long as he can, he should have the party tent as his first ability.
Maybe it would suit more if Galadriels Gifts would make the party much bigger, because she gives better wine and Lorien elves come to join the party. But armor is okay too.

Leadership would come then on lvl 3, Elk maybe together with his armor on lvl 5, Wrath of the Elvenking lvl 7.
I like the rest of your suggestions, although I must agree with Walküre about the shield wall.

Tiberius Ogden:

--- Zitat von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 ---I just don't like him, as a hero.
It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Well, you're not alone ... Quite many of us ... xD


--- Zitat von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 ---I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.
--- Ende Zitat ---

That's because he was created before BOTFA came out ... but even if we completely try to ignore last Hobbit movie, and Thranduil's deadly swords, we still would have problem with him, cause he has forced to tank role, which doesn't fit him ... but also the rest of his skillset is quite mixed.
He looks like "All in one" hero, you know ... bubble shield ... feast ... unit support ... not too focused abilities.


--- Zitat von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 ---He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.
--- Ende Zitat ---

It's without doubt. Don't forget what movie makers told us: "If Galadriel is the most powerful being in the Middle-earth during the time of Hobbit, then Thranduil is definitely the most badass warrior in the Middle-earth during that period."

He should be killing machine ... and normally when you see a guy with two swords on the battlefield ... you immediately realise that you and all of your troops will have serious problems ...  8-)
But still needs unit support aspect, as he is a noble king and protector of his realm.

So the role of mass slayer for him is obvious (with some unit support aspects) ...  :)

I've reworked some of his abilities which fit to mass slayer above ...


--- Zitat von: Walküre am 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 ---What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.


(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk
--- Ende Zitat ---

Why so limited and complicated?
Palace guards are special unit in the movies, it's pretty clear ... troops who protect their king and his halls.
So in order to make them unique, they can stay in Thranduil's skillset plus be limited heroic unit.


It means that we need regular lancers for Mirkwood, who fit to overall Mirkwood design and correspond to other units.


And solution is extremely simple - add spears instead of swords/bows to Mirkwood troops and you've created the new unit!  xD

Julio229:
Edit: After thinking about it and seeing the proposed Grimbeorn changes (which I feel are a nerf on him), and the proposed gift of Lórien that Thranduil would get, I'm not sure that I agree with this proposal anymore. While I still think Thranduil feels a bit unfocused, I'm not so sure now about the details of the proposal, so I can't really say I'm in favour of it right now.

I really like this Thranduil rework. He is not a bad hero currently in my opinion, but he did feel a bit unfocused and this would certainly go a long way to make him be on the Celeborn or Elrond level of greatness he deserves!

About the Palace Guards, I feel like they could be reduced to a heroic unit, letting the unused Mirkwood Pikes take their place as a regular unit. It would make Thranduil's (now) level 10 more impactful than them being a regular unit as they are now (which also poses the problem of Lothlórien being too good against Cavalry, which are their main "weakness" IIRC), so maybe moving them to an Heroic unit and making regular Mirkwood Pikes be part of the faction (though of course this could be of no help to the problem posed before), lowering the effect of such a good unit as the Palace Guards are, could be a good effect.

I definitely think the Palace Guards work better on Thranduil's ability than the Pikes, unless the ability was to be lower than level 10, or even, one of the lines could be Pikes and the other one Palace Guards :P (though it being Palace Guards only could work towards the ability's "impact" and effectiveness)

About Grimbeorn, he'd definitely make a good fit to be Lórien's tank hero, however I can't speak much about him because he is one of the heroes I use the less in Edain (not by his fault, I don't usually go for Beornings), but I'll probably try to use him more so I can contribute to that side of the discussion!

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