[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

a way to balance herospam

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turin.turambar:
According to the current state of the meta, herospam is, to put it bluntly, overpowered.

The main reason for it comes down to a simple fact, that is that the best way to fight heroes is with other heroes (because even the hero killer each faction have performs best if accompanied by other heroes).

To avoid having herospam as a far too good tactic, I suggest a new unit type is added to each faction (or rather, some currently underused units in each faction are "repurposed" and if ALL unit in a faction are already much used, new units are created, but I don't think that will be necessary).

That unit would play against heroes very much the same role the pikes play against cavalry. (and, just like the pikes are suboptimal when it comes to fighting against non cav units, these units would be suboptimal when fighting against standard units). This way you'd have a good old rock scissors paper including heroes as well, with heroes > standard units > anti-heroes units > heroes.

Now to the units that could play that role (probably with a tweaking in their cost and stats so they become stronger vs heroes and weaker vs units should that be useful), per faction. (some are currently empty, I'll fill them if people give ideas and enjoy the suggestion :

Imladris

The dunedain, that are currently barely used, would be perfect for that role imo. It makes sense lore wise, given they're descendant of great kinngs and numeronean , and they also are currently not really useful (at least, not for their troops).

Lothlorien

I'd say the ministrel is currently not used enough, but it wouldn't really make sense lore wise, and that would be a total repurpose.

Alternatively, maybe mirkwood units could be a solution, but they're already quite different from lothlorien unit imo, so I don't really know

Gondor

The dol amroth troops are as it stands rarely seen in gondor, so maybe giving them that purpose would make them actually useful. As for the lore accuracy, they're supposed to be elite troops, trained differently from gondor troops that are more used to a constant struggle against mordor.

(as for arnor, I'd guess the dunedain or high elves could be recruited from the elven fortress, or maybe if the heir to the throne hero decides to go as a ranger, the dunedain could get an upgrade making them valuables herokillers)

Rohan

Not yet any idea, maybe something from the archery range as it currently isn't used at all imo doesn't have much use except for spearthrowers, but I don't really see what troops would play that role in a coherent way.

Dwarves

Not yet any idea, maybe lake-city / dale troops, but to be seen with the proposal for these outpost to be reworked what that would give. And the iron hills outpost units would undoubtly need to have a similar role as well.

Isengard

I heard the berserk weren't very used, so maybe making them deal only single target damage, but potentially heavy damages would allow them to play the herokiller role for isengard. (It IS also lore wise, given they killed haldir in movie).

Mordor

Mordor being mordor, I don't really know, they already have so much possibilities. I'd say the dol guldur outpost could produce these units instead of their free orcs, since it was in the hobbit movies the place sauron almost caught gandalf, so linking it to the anti hero units of mordor would make sense.

Angmar

Not yet any idea, I didn't play them even ONCE since release, but maybe zaphragor is already strong enough so they don't need these troops, but I don't really know.



And now, to get an easy view of the reception, the IN FAVOUR / AGAINST list that follows :

IN FAVOUR


Turin.turambar


AGAINST
!josdos

Halbarad:
I do see the problem of hero spam too, especially in teamgames. But I don't think that it is that easy, since normal units like battalions of swordsmen won't be able to do significant damage against enemies heroes fighting between their allied units (which are strong against your herocounters).
There are some possibilities that could weaken hero spam:
1. Higher up their reviving prices and time when the hero killed on high level
2. Abilities in general, or very strong abilities like Gandalfs word of power could get a timer when these heroes are being revived.
3. Bound heroes strength to their troops appearance on the battlefield. Angmar builds Hwaldar without even using Hillmen could make them weaker. Same thing with Karsh and barrows and wights. For example:
0 wights or barrows: -50% armor
1 wight or barrow: -40%
2 wights or barrows: -30%
...
5: +-0
6: +5%
...
10: +25% armor

That would lower the effect of gained experience, so that the player who first leveled up his heroes wouldn't automatically superior in all battles between heroes.
To give another idea, I also recently suggested (in the german forum) a new concept for Gulzar, bounding his spells to other sourceres on the battlefield and not his level. Like one sourcerer = one ability. Would be a huge amount of work but in the end it would lower the benefits of some easy herospam.

Coming to troops that should be strong against heroes, I wouldn't go too much on direct damage but also on things, that could weaken enemies heroes. That could be for example
1. Poison that deals damage for a very very long while. Not much damage, but as much damage as there is needed to stop these heroes directly healing themself automatically when outside of combat. It would be pretty easy to counter that for good factions, so it shouldn't be the only way. Dol Guldur Spiders and Gulzars Acolytes could do that (after they exploded), since Angmar and Mordor do already have possabilities against heroes (Carn Dum Swordsmen, Battle Troll with sword).
2. Lowering stopping enemys heroes abilities rechargetime by some passive ability. Could be a sideeffect of Dunadan-Archers ability, although I think that librerians of light should be also good.
3. Strengthen nearby allied units against heroes. Dol Amroth soldiers could do that (they already do have an ability that makes allied infantry stronger, so I wouldn't say that they aren't good, but they could be in that hero-killing role.
4. Lower the amount of experience heroes gain (from killing units or units being killed around them)

Rohan has its officers, Erkenbrand, Grimbold and the other one. One of them could do the job.
Lorien theoretically has Beorns in the EG and silverthorn arrows for the lategame while Isengart berserks should be already good enough for the job.
You could also think about making Ringlo Vale Swordsmen strong(er) against heroes.

Archaon the Ever-Salty:
i tested berserkers against heroes in the past, it takes about 4-5 berserkers to kill beragond..... its not a good unit for that.

turin.turambar:
albarad, thank you very much for the detailed answer.

point 1 was tried in previous and current update, but didn't seem to do much, and keeping on doing so would imho probably lead to more frustration than actual fix.

point 2 : 'm not sure the problem comes from heroes being able to use their abilities right as they come to the battlefield, but maybe thta could weaken them a bit, but I don't think that alone will be enough. (you in addition rarely play to get your heroes killed I'd say)

point 3 could be nice, but I'd rather link it to all the troops rather than a certain kind of troops (mainly to get less work to do, and to handle that way "lone wanderer" type of heroes.) I mean herokillers and faction leaders don't have overall THAT much of a given troop you can link them to. Think for example of gandalf, aragorn, eowyn, the WK etc. etc. Also not sure heroes would still be enjoyable if they're utterly useless without army, so maybe a tiny penalty but nothing too big.

As for troops, giving micro to do doesn't seem THAT annoying to me, plus if there are multiple kind of troops (cav, lancers etc.), you could choose the one most appropriate for the job depending of opponent hero. That's more or less what happens already with monsters I'd say. (the pikes are strong against them even if the opponent is careful not to trample them). If these units were as strong against heroes than pikes are against monsters and as weak against other units than pikes are, they would imo be VERY useful depending of what you're up against.

For the different ideas you have for the troops, I must say they all look good, making these units be good against heroes in more way than just dealing damages. I don't know if the habit is to add them into the suggestion message then or not, still quite new on the forum...

I'd be very much against giving the beorns this role in lorien though, as they're already very strong, so a unit already quite strong that have a cav role shouldn't be the choice to get even more abilities imo. From what I heard, the berserks would indeed need tweaking to play that role, as they're quite weak against heroes as it stands. Ringlo vale seemed to me like they already had a role, but otherwhise why not. (IF that suggestion is implemented, I'd say though that it is important to make the "anti hero troops" be troops playing that role and ONLY that role, so to ease balance, and also make it not a big split up in X different buildings in faction. Reason why I insist troops playing that role must in current state feel underpowered / underused)£.

Thanks again for the feedback.

ljosdos:
I am against making heroes weaker. i do not see a problem with people spamming heroes. Heroes are strong yes but sending hem alone against an army is still suicide. They still cost a lot of money which you wont have when you are trying to build a decent army and upgrade your economy. Spamming them would mean that you just build one unit for 1000-3000 resources and just send them in without care for their survival. Most people who do this lose the game in the long run. Going for your factions heroes is just how the game currently works. If you do not build them you are in a disadvantage against anyone who has heroes. The job of every player is not to feed the enemy and have them level up their heroes faster than you can level up yours. When you have upgrades and can micro your troops , enemy heroes can be killed. You are spending more resources on a hero then on a fully upgraded unit. so it is just fair to have them be strong enough to be (when used correctly) a manace that must be dealt with.

About adding hero countering units/abilities thats something I would be fine with. But in my opinion they shouldnt be passive debuffs but more like an active ability like the uruk hai hunting arrows.

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