Witch-king of Angmar Discussion

[OakenShield224]

The general view in the community is that the Angmar version of the Witch-king is quite a bit more underwhelming than he should be, something that should never be the case for a faction leader. While he has some strengths with his AOE attacks, his buffs to other Angmar heroes and his ability to debuff enemy forces, other Angmar heroes are generally seen as being more useful ingame. Zaphragor is a far stronger Mass Slayer for example. Helegwen is able to disrupt enemy forces at a far lower price (although this will change with the movement of heroes to other buildings). The Witch-king has some hero killing potential, but he is not the faction's hero killer as that role is given to Durmarth (and partially to Zaphragor). In the grand scheme of the mod as a whole, Mordor's Witch-king is far stronger than Angmar's Witch-king. While his Ring Form is very effective in game, it's not the most interesting, with the only real changes being a new passive and an improvement to his snowstorm. In addition, there have been a lot of complaints about the Ring form not being accurate to the lore as any Nazgul claiming the Ring would most likely try to give it to its master instead of wielding it itself.

The Edain Team have stated that they will be reworking the Angmar Witch-king in a way that also affects the central spell of the faction (currently one of the least interesting out of all the central spells even if it is effective ingame). I have therefore created this thread to try and gather the views of the community on how this hero and spell could be changed in a way to make him worthwhile, exciting to use and fitting to the character. A few starting pointers for the discussion:
 - How could he tie into the faction's themes of sacrificial sorcery?
 - How could his aura of fear be included? Could it affect allies as well as enemies potentially?
 - Angmar is a faction that revolves around its heroes. How could they be involved with their leader?
 - Could some of the old Angmar features from pre 4.x be included in some way (for example, cold drakes and other fell creatures of the north).
 - How would Ring Hero Witch-king be changed?

[Halbarad]

First of all, since Zaphragor and Helegwen aren't not anymore inside the citadel, the Witchking will be much more easier to get than both of the others (or the Witchking of Mordor). Second thing, I think it is quite interesting that the Witchking as the central hero unites more functions than one (mass slayer and hero killer aspects).

So first of all, what do you want so see changed? Which ability do you/ the community see changed? In what way is he worse than the Witchking of Mordor apart from not being able to fly? And do you think that he should be very similar to the Witchking of Mordor in his abilities or should there be some strong differences?

Some suggestions that could be discussed:
- I think that it could be interesting if he would primary use a normal sword and switch with an ability to his morning star, for example when using the snow storm ability. Angmar already has so many mass slayer heroes (Zaphragor, Helegwen, Gulzar and even Mornamath and Karsh) that the Witchking doesn't really need to be such a good one.
- He could get some kind of leadership ability that gets all units of Angmar near to him some bonus damage, however, if the vasales leader hero is on the battlefield, the hero benefits from his leadership instead of the vassal units. Could be interesting if he would make them faster when being on horse. His mount/dismount ability isn't that interesting when he doesn't have other Nazgul to follow him into battle, such a thing could help.
- Might of the Witch-King could be a good central spell in my opinion (was discussed once in another suggestion thread, I liked that idea. Although early Drauglin Werewolf could be a bit too strong). But yeah, the central spell we got right now isn't that interesting.

Suggestion for his Ring mechanic: How about giving him the ability to mount on a flying cold/ ice drake? Could be epic, he would be the only Ring hero being able to fly (until Misty Mountains releases probably). Summoning Sauron probably wouldn't fit for Angmar since the faction would have two leaders then.

[tolgayurdal]

Witch King of Angmar

[/b]

   As known, Lord of the Nazgul has been sent to destroy Northern Kingdom for Dark Lord. He is a chief of Black Riders as the most powerful one with sorcery and the ruler of Angmar. The truth is that he has not intended to be permanent king of where Arnor settled. He brought devastation to the world of men and then summoned back to his nest. So in the game, Witch King of Angmar should have a general interferer role with supporting own heroes. His abilities eventually needs a rework:

Level 1: Mount / Dismount: As usual, Mount/Dismount. But after he reveals himself and gains additional passive:
At level 3, Darkest Rider: As the Lord of Nine, wherever he goes, his presence lowers enemy units’ damage and armor by 20%.

Level 1: Service for the Deadliest One: All faction heroes serve him to get the peak of his power in the North. Target hero across the map grants experience to him while fighting for 1 minute.
After level 3, carries his Dreadful Aura that lowers the armor of enemy units by 10%.
When he reached to level 10, the abilities of the hero reload faster due to number of enemy heroes nearby, starts with 15% and increases by 5% for each.

Level 3: Mighty Sorcerer with Iron Crown (P.A.): Since his existance appeared as the ruler of Angmar, prevents anyone to reach him without suffering. Enemy heroes and buildings nearby lose armor and damage by 20% and gets poison damage with the first hit.

More than once, he chooses a rival to challenge for a duel and weakens him in several ways.

Level 7: Prey of Nazgul Lord: ALL units in a medium radius between target hero and himself are knocked back without any damage, the skills of the prey reset to just used.

In the most powerful time of him, uses sorcery to conquer enemy lands as known in both Arnor and Minas Ithil.

Level 10: Twilight in the Winter: Enemy buildings nearby him lose their sight and 50% productivity when he arrives (visually winter effects). Also Witch King disables his enemies to use any spell in a wide range for 30 seconds.

Might of Iron Crown

After this kind of operation, the central spell of Angmar Spellbook requires a change:

Angmar heroes receive rewards that Might of the Witch King gifts without a timer to serve him better.

Witch King of Angmar and The One Ring

In case of he captures the one, his Nazgul identity is naturally revealed and seen as a god in his kingdom. When he gets the ring, more involves to the battle instead of driving it like Sauron in Black Gates before losing the one.

Level 1: Darkest Rider: Mount/Dismount and Dread Visage passive.

Level 1: Sacrifise for Witch King (P.A.): Every Angmar hero on the map grants experience to him while fighting as their Master. Also can not knock back and lowers armor and damage of nearby enemy units.
At level 10, they gain elemental damage rezistance permanently and the spells of Angmar reload faster by 20%.

Level 3: Life Drinking Blade: The blade draws all nearby units and heroes toward the Witch-King with dark magic and heavily poisons any enemy it strikes, reducing their damage by 30%. (same)

Level 7: Preys for Ritual: Enemy heroes nearby him are knocked back without any damage and can not use their skills against his sorcery for 30 seconds.

Level 10: Harbinger of Winter and Shadow: All enemy buildings on the map lose their function, armor and sight for 45 seconds. Additionally, freezes enemy spells with his sorcery during that time.

[OakenShield224]

These are some interesting ideas. I'll go Halbarad's first. The weapon toggle would definitely bring something new to the table here with the hero. I imagine it would also be applied along side his mount, although this would mean that he'd have two ability slots dedicated to toggles which might seem like a limitation on the other slots. Something involving the cold drakes could definitely be a cool idea as an "icy" mirror of his Fell Beast as well.

As for Tolga's ideas, I do really like the idea of Witch-king supporting the allied heroes of the faction. He is what ties them together into one force after all. I agree on Might of the Witch King being tied in with the central spell as well although having it be a permanent effect may lead to some balance issues (for example having access to Werewolf Drauglin early in the game).  It might also be an interesting idea to tie the spellbook power to the Witch-king as well in some way. As for the challenge, I also really like this idea of him forcing a duel upon other heroes. Maybe another potential way of doing it could be with an Elendil-effect similarly to Aragorn. For example, he could terrify enemy units around him, forcing them to flee in terror while preventing heroes from escaping or using their skills when they are close to him. However, care would need to be taken to make sure that this doesn't make Angmar too powerful at dealing with enemy heroes as they already have Durmarth and Zaphragor.

[Seleukos I.]

Hello everyone

I might just throw in some thoughts concerning the Witchking.

First of all I’d like to point out that I don’t think he is that bad right now in terms of usefulness in battle. He is overshadowed by Zaphragor, yes, but I don’t think the WK is underpowered.

However, this being said, I really like the idea of improving him on a conceptional level, and I agree that the central spell could be made more interesting.

I like Halbarad’s idea of giving him more than just one “role”. Tbf, he already covers several roles, like mass-slaying, unit and hero supporting as well as hero killing. I think all of this roles fit him quite well, so I’d like him to keep them. However, he shouldn’t be too good at every single on of them: Zaphragor should be the better mass slayer and Durmath should be the better herokiller.

I don’t really have that many ideas for new/reworked abilities partly because I think most of them are kinda well fitting already.

However, I do have an idea concerning the central spell:
It would interact with the WK directly and make his level one debuff passive only (maybe increase the debuff at the same time). This would “free up” one slot in his palantir allowing him to have a second palantir of abilities (after buying the central spell).
This second set of abilities wouldn’t be bound to his levels but to the tech the Angmar player is going for (a bit like the system he used in 3.8.1, I think).
He would have four abilities (because there are four slots left in the second palantir), each of them connected to another part of Angmar.
The first one would be unlocked by having a Hall of the king’s men level three, the second one by having a wolf-den level three, the third one by having a wight-lair (?) level three and the last one by having a temple of twilight (?) level three.
Now unfortunately I’m not very creative, so I don’t really have ideas what this abilities could actually do^^
Maybe the wight ability could make units near the WK heal themselves with every strike, or something similar.
The core of my idea basically that the individual aspects of Angmar (Carn Dum, wolves, wights and sorcerers) each unlock an ability (the WK is the one who united Angmar) that benefits not only them but the whole of Angmar.

Now, as you can see, this idea isn’t really far developed, but since this thread is just to collect ideas I thought I can just post it here and maybe someone  has any good ideas to add to my idea. Or maybe it’s just trash and it will be ignored^^


Best regards,
Sekeukos

[Halbarad]

@tolgayurdal I wouldn't focus to much on his role as leader of the Nazgul, more as his role as leader of Angmar.

I also don't think that he would need a whole new concept, maybe we could just try to adjust what we got.
I'm not for such a system as "Service for the Deadliest One". I don't think that the Witchking needs extra experience. He already levels pretty fast due to his strong attacks and most of the other Angmar heroes do have really cool abilities and features, so it would only/mostly be useful when the other hero had already reached level 10, which gets to the next problem: Put the ability on Zaphragor level 10, use Zaphragors level 10 ability, Witchking gets all the experience plus maybe even the experience for being near to Zaphragor.
The central spell should definetly be focused on just one hero, even if its the central hero himself. Gandalf the White would also be a really bad central spell. Also just lowering damage and armor for units around the Witchking is a really boring effect and the snow storm, which is the coolest thing about this ability, would be missed.
Bounding some of his abilities to buildings level 3 could be interesting, although you should keep in mind that it wouldn't be so difficult to get them when the player gets the Sanctuary of the Witchking (defense 10 spell) and that the Witchking already has some really complex abilities while Angmar is the faction with most heroes in the mod.
I still think that it would be interesting if the Witchking would only use his mace when using a special ability. As we all know, Angmar already has a huge mass destroying potential. The Witchking should be focused on sword or fighting with 2 swords or something. Another thing: Soul Disturbance (reject timer of enemys abilities to just used) isn't that cool right now. Its strong, yes, but I think that it could be done much better:

My suggestion for Soul Disturbance:

New Life Drinking Blade (Level 10) = Death Blade & Soul Disturbance combined
If WK hits an enemy hero with Death Blade at Level 10, the hero gets his special abilities reset to just used. The poison effect for surrounding units would therefore be canceled, since the ability is mainly good against heroes (yes he got huge aoe, but he also doesn't throw back units and the enemy often got better armor when the Witchking has reached level 10) this wouldn't be that bad.
Therefore, one ability in his palantir would be free (from the old Soul Disturbance) and you could feel free to create a new one.

[tolgayurdal]

Greetings!

The last update before Misty Mountains has been released and brought a lot of feedback with it. I haven't explained my proposal very well when i shared but i try to answer and enlight somethings, also thanks for giving precious feedbacks to it.

Witch King is very unique character as the Lord of Nazgul, but also the most powerful servant of Dark Lord in fact. Even in Mordor, he does not level up while fighting, his strength comes from his master. As mentioned, sent for destroying Arnor and returned when the job is done. So his experience does not lie upon killing units, instead, he has servants to do that and this increases his effectiveness in the North. So he requires a different level up system for reaching and using his already specialized skills in my opininon.

Another thing is that he is the only official hero in the faction as the central one. In the light of this reality, Zaphragor and Durmath are more suitable for a change, if necessary, because WK's abilities are not directly parts of mass slayer or hero killer roles.

However i agree some of your points: New Life Drinking Blade of Halbarad and balance issues with terrifying effect (instead of knock back) of Oakenshield. Surely the concept needs be improved in several ways as not being perfect and of course it is just a suggestion.

Best regards.

[OakenShield224]

The point is though, he may have been a Nazgul, but he was not known as a Nazgul until the end of the war. He was only known as the Witch-king, and so should be treated more as the Lord of Angmar instead of Chief of the Ringwraiths.
On a separate note, I like the idea of combining the effects of his final abilities. As faction leaders go, Life Drinking Blade feels quite underwhelming compared to abilities like Glorious Charge or Nenya's Cleansing or even something like Hour of the Witch King. I also agree with the issues of forcing the Witch-king to only gain experience from other heroes as stated by Halbarad.
As for Seleukos' idea, I like the idea of him being tied to Angmar's various tech options. However, it does have issues. Part of the reason this sort of system was changed from 3.8.1 was because the faction just ended up being way too complicated with its hero system. But also one of the strengths of Angmar is versatility with being able to go with whichever strategy you want. Wolves or thralls in the early game. Continued thralls, Carn Dum, werewolves, sorcerers or barrow wights in the later stages. By forcing the player to go through all of them to strengthen the Witch-king, it sort of goes against one of the main ideas with the faction.

[Halbarad]

Life Drinking Blade feels quite underwhelming compared to abilities like Glorious Charge or Nenya's Cleansing or even something like Hour of the Witch King.

So how about my idea when he is able to reset everys heroes abilities when attacking them for a short time? Would be pretty huge when being able to attack multiple enemy heroes such as Gandalf Level 10 and Aragorn (= no word of power or other magic, no healing, no swordmaster if the player hasn't just used it before being attacked by the Witchking, ...).  Would be even better when he is on his horse since he can run down enemy heroes.

Part of the reason this sort of system was changed from 3.8.1 was because the faction just ended up being way too complicated with its hero system.

I don't think so since his system it had nothing to do with Angmars hero system. Angmar just had too many buildings for the new building system (extra building for thrawmasters). You also didn't have to build up every building, just buy the upgrades in the fortress. However, reducing his amount of abilies may have been part of the change.

[steadii]

In general I agree that WK for Angmar needs rework and some connection to spellbook (for instance via central spell).

Concerning his Ring mechanic - of course that ring should be somehow connected to him, because of gameplay and faction leader, but we all know that is totally against the lore as nine answers only to Sauron so that is quite strange for WK to keep the ring. I always imagined that Sauron actually could be revived, but not fiery and heavy armoured version like in Mordor nor spectral like Anatar, but something between, someone who does not want to interfere directly and prefers WK to leads his legion in the North. For instance old model for Necromancer but not green, more icy/blue, and with some weapon:



So another version of Sauron would be there, but WK would be still faction leader.

And Necromancer/Sauron would be able to revive for WK some death icy dragon, as suggested here:

Suggestion for his Ring mechanic: How about giving him the ability to mount on a flying cold/ ice drake? Could be epic, he would be the only Ring hero being able to fly (until Misty Mountains releases probably). Summoning Sauron probably wouldn't fit for Angmar since the faction would have two leaders then.

I can clearly imagine WK flying on dragon like NK in GOT, it would be unique and pretty cool:

[dkbluewizard2]

To Steadii

The WK is not taking the Ring for himself. Sauron during the time period has been back for not even 1,000 years. As LOTR and the Hobbit show, Sauron suffered a major defeat and his strength is slow to grow.

So don't think of the WK as taking the ring for himself, but that Sauron is pouring every ounce of strength into his servant to take up the One Ring and use it in the mean time while Sauron gains more of his old power back.

I am sorry but WK will never ride a dragon he never did in the books so I don't see the team implementing this at all.

[Halbarad]

I am sorry but WK will never ride a dragon he never did in the books so I don't see the team implementing this at all.

He did ride some bat-like creature in the Lord of the Rings and cold drakes/ cold dragons are much alike them (also black, don't breath fire, probably have the same model but weren't really used since the last version of Edain including goblins). So him being able to breed/ controll such a creature would be much closer to the lore then many other ring concepts in my opinion. Doesn't have to be one that breathes fire or something else. And if it his him who breeds/ awakens the Dragon or Sauron doesn't really matter in my opinion.

[steadii]

Agreed with Halbarad.
Well, Angmar faction is whole fiction because we have little references from lore and nothing from movies, but WK riding ice dragon is pretty realistic. On the north there are such dragons or at least their bones. He is actually lich king/arthas or night king of Middle-earth. He is dead "witch" king who can reanimated death. Also Angmar would have at least one flying unit like Mordor and Misty Mountains. And one ring would have purpose - ring dominates the will of others so why not dominate some dead dragon for war purpose?

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

If anything, these other fictional characters are the Witch-King of their stories, not the other way around...

Reviving a dead dragon is pretty far from anything we know from the lore. We also have absolutely zero cases of anybody ever riding a dragon, because they aren't simple tamed beasts for transportation like in many other stories. The bat-like creatures are not dragons, as you've pointed out already, and they were bred specifically to fulfill their purpose of transporting the Nine, as far as we know.

Giving the WK an undead dragon (or any dragon, for that matter) to ride on won't happen.

[dkbluewizard2]

Well we know that the WK flew on a fellbeast during the WOTR, but I believe the reason why the ET has WK on horse is because in the books, he rides on his horse away from Glorfindel. I don't believe it ever states that he rode a fellbeast at Angmar.

Also the argument about fliers--what fliers do any of the Good factions have? Eagles are small summon just like Radagast.