Balance and leadership cancelling (the case especially of the Lorien minstrels)

[Le Sournois]

Hello,

Among the things that iin my opinion would update further the Edain mod is inserting more balance in terms of leaderships cancelling.

   It is a very powerful tool, especially in multiplayer I guess but it has also a lot of influence in solo gameplay against the AI.

But this tool is an arm only for some few factions (which is wise), like Angmar, Isengard, Arnor but above all Mordor.

All the other don't get access to this super powerful tool that can make Boromir or Saruman with the Ring not so dangerous as they would be otherwise.

   I like mostly how this is implemented by now, however I want to point at some elements that can badly influence the game in the current system of leadership cancelling.

THE LORIEN MINSTRELS

   The most important example I think are the Lorien minstrels. I tested it by saving the game when a unit confronted a Nazgûl and load it twice afterwards with activating their leadership, and without activating it, and there was no difference of damage taken by my units from this Nazgul in both case, so I conclude that the Nazgûl cancelled my minstrel leadership.

I expected a different result because this leadership sounds like a spell leadership such as the Glorious Charge, rather than a standard leadership, I mean even visually, the units don't glow as usual but they are surrounded by music notes.

   The Lorien minstrels have been nerfed some time ago, they grant only 10% damage and armor which is nice, but they take 60 command points and 500 to research and they unique purpose is activating their leadership, which they can't do very often, and if then their leadership can be deactivated, this destroys their only purpose on the battlefield, and its ruins the balance in my opinion.

I think they are technical to use and that's an interesting unit. To be sure they stay that way, their leadership in my opinion has to be not cancellable by any way.

FINAL STAND OF THE DWARVES

   Here is a very interesting case of leadership cancelling. Using the Central Spell of the Dwarves in the Horde map of Helm's Deep is not a good idea. Why ? because it's raining boys !

Indeed, the rain of Isengard and therefore all the other ways to cnacel leaderships just turn this Central spell of the Dwarves into a total waste.

   I like there is such a counter, however, it deprives a player from using a 5 powerpoint spell, which is quite incredible. I think balance could be better for these type of super spells if an alternative effect was implemented in case of a deprivation of leadership.

   The description of this Central spell could therefore read "If this effect (4 time as much armor) is cancelled, a new effect applies nonetheless (+25 % armor to the troops caught in the radius of the spell)

25 % instead of 300 %. Cancelling leadership would still be a great counter but it would not turn into nothingness a spell that costs 5 pwp.


GALADRIEL, LADY OF LIGHT

   The same applies to Galadriel in her bless form each time she uses an ability that normally, gives every allies nearby +20 % range, damage and speed. All the interest of that spell can be turn into nothing by activating Isengard's rain.

   As there is more time to get benefice from it than the final stand of the Dwarves, it maybe less impactful. However, in this case also, I think that an alternative effect of only 10 % speed (or 20 % with the Ring), only half the bonus for speed without more damage neither range if leaderships are cancelled would improve the feeling and interest of such a spell.

   It is also quite nonsensical that spells so powerful can be negated by a Nazgûl or by the rain. Galadriel is far more powerful in terms of the hope she inspires compared to the Nazgûl despairing aura.


Glorious Charge of Theoden seems to be not cancellable, and that is great, perfect as it is.

[The_Necromancer0]

I think most of the arguments you make are fair. It'd be worth looking at the ones you mentioned. Although I would like to add more variable to be considered: if a player knows they are playing against a faction that has strong leadership cancelling, it is intentional that some powers and units are weaker.

For example, in the case of the Minstrels, when facing a faction with strong leadership cancels it is intended for the player to simply not recruit them in the same way that you wouldn't recruit spears against a faction that does not produce cavalry or monsters. I think it's okay for units to be countered by other units. To some extent, I think the same applies to spells. Certain spells should not be used against certain factions.

However, spellbooks spells do need a softer counter because once you have purchased one you are locked in to it, so I wouldn't mind changing some of these spells from being fully countered by leadership cancelled to being rendered suboptimal.

On a side note, while I see your point with the Dwarven Central spell, I would not be using a non-standard map to support it. To me, it sounds more like the horde map should be changed to accommodate for such spells rather than the spell be changed to accommodate the map.

[Halbarad]

I do think that you are absolutly right Le Sournois, leadership canceling should probably be limited to passive leaderships (however maybe it could make the effect of active ones half as strong?).

I do disagree with Necromancer, if one spell can make a supporting unit useless its stupid gameplay, as it would be, if Imladris could just disable all Angmar Sourcerers. I also don't think that the spears argument applies here, since spears are still useful and being used when the enemy doesn't go for cav (because he could summon spell-cav or put heroes on horse) and because the pikes would still do damage against units and buildings. Cavalry is strong against swordsmen, but it doesn't make them useless. Thats a large difference in my opinion.

[Le Sournois]

I do not ask for a suppression of the cancelling for all very strong powers but rather I hope for an alternative effect, far weaker than the effect that would normally applied to be implemented in that case.

So that you would have the counter to leaderships still very strong and a good deal of strategy linked with it, but you would have also the utility of spells preserved and a good general feeling on that. In the entire game, whatever the situation and the ennemy you face.
A map specific change is not my point at all. Helm's Deep horde map can stay as it is, this is rather a question of general balance.

And for minstrels, I couldn't argue better than Halbarad on this point.
Also, the visual way their leadership work is quite misleading. The music notes appear also when there is a Nazgûl nearby. I did not thought their leadership was cancelled before I tested it.