Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Aug 2015, 16:46

Titel: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Aug 2015, 16:46
So from all 3 Dwarven Realms Erebor is the one that has 1 Extra Siege Unit which other Dwarven Realms doesnt! :) While that is unique to represnt Erebors Strentght against Buildings I find it somewhat unfair that only they have 1 Extra Unit and unbalanced!
While I don't think that Earth Shakers should be removed I think that Ered Luin and Iron Hills should get 1 Extra Unit too! :)
For example Iron Hills can get Iron Ballistas limited to 5 which will be stronger against Monsters and Siege Units and do Light Damage against Infantry! :)
(http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/762/761504/10608711_700504163378679_4246224323329680444_o.jpg)
Ered Luin can get those Laddermans that Bofur now has as an Ability limited to 5 too! :)
And Erebor can keep the Earth Shakers! :)
Well that will mean that Bofur needs new Ability and any suggestions are welcome about that! :)
He may sing to boost the morale of nearest Heroes and they will get 20% Speed and Damage! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 5. Aug 2015, 17:10
Earth shaker definitely is not fair and not conceptual as well. It's advantage for Erebor in comparison with Iron Hills and Ered Luin.
I really don't know if earth shaker is "usable" or which advantages has but I would remove it completely and add him as a final spell which causes earthquake.
And we will solve two issues/threads.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Aug 2015, 17:14
It is not unusaeale but vey hard to use!You need a lot of protection around it to use it !And while I can agree that without him it will be no problem I prefer the option wit 1 more unit for the other 2 Kingdoms! :)
As for the Ultimate Spell well there is deffinetly an "Earth Hammer" or "Earth Shaker" with gigantic size that should be used to couse the Earthquake! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Tienety am 5. Aug 2015, 17:18
I think that Earth Shakers need change, this unit is absolutely useless in game. i have some idea for this unit:
Maybe just Earth Shakers can have standard attack against buildings with small earthquake. 8-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 5. Aug 2015, 21:00
I like that idea and may be some Heavy Armor Upgrade to make more tough and hard to destroy! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 6. Aug 2015, 02:10
Not agree, with anyone of you, Firstly isnt important that erebor is the unique subfaction that have it, I mean, what about balin runes, or highspeed dwarves from ironhills? Camon, this isnt a great advantage, only give them more chances to siege. And the strong of this siege machines is that if you use 3 you can get a extreamly high damage to multiple buildings, or a lot of knockbak in enemie frontline, allowing you to destroy your enemie with axethrowers, so hell yeah, this siege machine is very usefull, and Ered Luin is enough Op for now, ironhills maybe could get Ballistas like a summon of Drar instead of his sabotage abilitie. And this units is very underestimated by many players, is very usefull not useless, but yes, its damage alone isnt enough, maybe can get buffed ;D
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Aug 2015, 08:49
Ered Luin is OP because the Team likes them the most and give all the good stuff to them but still few OP Heroes(begining woth Balin's Teleport) are not like having Extra Units which other factions lack,and Extra Units is an Extra Units and distubs the balance to some degree! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 16:40
Just comparison

All three Dwarven kingdoms have:
The numbers are clear. ;)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Aug 2015, 17:04
Well true but when you add all hero summons from Ered Luin and  and how OP  are its Heroes!And Erebor have one more Seige Unit! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 17:07
Well true but when you add all hero summons from Ered Luin
But still there are only summons, it doesn't matter how op are currently. For that discussion I can see only problem with non conceptual Earth shaker.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Aug 2015, 17:14
An unused feature of a faction is definitely no advantage. Therefore the earth shaker is of course fair -in comparison it would be absolutely unfair to add a real unit to iron hills like the ballista. There have been multiple ideas about this in the german forum with the exact same idea (apart from a different unit for ered luin) and all of them have been like "Erebor has one additional unit (no matter it's useless), so we should give the other sub-factions also a new unit, however this one shall have an actual function".
I'm sorry, but this is a real shortsighted argument, because it basically says "add something for nothing". IF the earth shaker would be a real unit OR the Erebor would be the strongest sub-faction, I'd agree, but this way?

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Edit: However I like Tienety's idea of giving the earth shaker an actual attack. Especially it would simplify this unit a bit.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 17:20
So Melkor earth shaker isn't real unit in you eyes?
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Aug 2015, 17:30
Absolutely. It's the closest definition of a gimmick, Edain has got.
(Actually I like it that way. Utterly useless, but one of the most original ideas. ;))
Edit: Don't misunderstand this, I don't want in general useless units, just because of having them and I also don't mind, making this unit into a usefull one.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Aug 2015, 17:34
As I see it to him the Earth Shaker is just there to take place! :-) Earth Shaker is just veru hard to use not so useless but I like Tienity idea and if it is used then there should be a new Unit for the other factions! :-)
P.S. No one said "add something for nothing" so please do not be offending to other people opinion and ideas! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Aug 2015, 17:47
That wasn't an offense in any way. It's only that I've heart this proposal a lot of times and everytimes it was more or less the same with varying ideas for iron hills and ered luin.
And yes, we would essentially add something for nothing: At the moment this unit has very little use, meaning adding a new unit for the other dwarven sub-factions is adding something as a counterpart to Erebors earth shaker / nothing.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Tienety am 6. Aug 2015, 17:54
Maybe dwarves do not need more siege unit. Why not just make two different basic siege units in all subfactions:

Erebor
1) Earth Shaker(with standard attack, he will be equivalent of battering ram)
2) Erebor catapult(same as now)

Iron Hills
1) Battering ram with dwarven crew
2) Ballista

Ered Luin
1) Demolisher(same as now)
2) Ered Luin catapult(same as now)

What do you think about this?
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 19:40
I think that we have three options:
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 6. Aug 2015, 21:45
I think that we have three options:
  • Remove earth shaker.
  • Add earth shaker (or something what will be the same) for Iron Hills and Ered Luin, too.
  • Tienety's proposal - more variations for all Dwarven kingdoms, but with the similar siege effect.
Another option, Dont change anything, I love the siege sistem and variety of the 3 Dwarven Kingdoms, so I dont want other factions having earthshakers, Only must be usable by erebor, and remove it have no sense. the earthsaker adds a unique siege machine, for the faction who must have more variety on this. Other factions like Ered Luin have incredible bonuses to infantry and Heros, and The dmg of ironhills units its simply insane, so let My erebor dwarves have  their Unique feature thx.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 22:08
I love the siege sistem and variety of the 3 Dwarven Kingdoms
Which variety? As far as I know, all dwarven factions have the same number of heroes, units, buildings, and only Erebor has additional one siege unit. Is it variety?

and remove it have no sense
Why? Personally I think that it's very reasonable - have you checked previous discussion?

for the faction who must have more variety on this
Why? I think that all factions should have the same conditions or not? By the way - have you ever played with Gloin with his leadership for siege machines? Where units have bonuses against structures and where are big hammers as a upgrade?

let My erebor dwarves have  their Unique feature
And why only Erebor can have additional unit and not rest of Dwarven kingdoms as well? It does not make sense.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Aug 2015, 22:47
Well, for example ered luin has tons of additional heroes. So the dwarven factions have certain differences and the earth shaker is definitely the smallest of problems the dwarves have. I'm sure one can argue about this quite a while if this is a valid argument and so on, but fact is that there are a lot of differences between the sub-factions (e.g. the way their heroes are performing their roles is varying massively). I therefore must say that I can abolutely support Draco1000000's point.
Also: If the earth shaker is a gimmick (one might disagree here, but I think it is), then Erebor hasn't a real additional unit, so there is no single disadvantage between the factions.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 23:10
Well, for example ered luin has tons of additional heroes.
Which ones?
All Dwarven faction has six heroes. Any other hero is just summonable hero and has some resctrictions.

So the dwarven factions have certain differences
Yes, I completely agree, we should focus it and give some balance to them as well, but through the comparison with equal numbers. Not when some unit is just extra unit.

Also: If the earth shaker is a gimmick (one might disagree here, but I think it is), then Erebor hasn't a real additional unit, so there is no single disadvantage between the factions.
Even if there will be something what is completely useless, so technically it's still additional unit in comparison with the rest of Dwarven kingdoms.


Sorry, but numbers are still very clear. xD
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Aug 2015, 23:23
I give up. We're are achieving absolutely nothing here, because the both of us have given their statements and further talking would ultimately be a repeat.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 6. Aug 2015, 23:32
I give up.
That's a pity. :( :P
But I think that we are considering similarly.
Firstly - I want to deal with exact numbers. And some earth shaker does not care me. To be honestly.
When we will get the same numbers, we can then compare them and find if some number (or better say hero/unit) has for instance higher importance than hero/unit in the rest of Dwarven factions. I think that it will be easier, cause we will have the same numbers (things) to compare them and find problematic issues than work with numbers where simply one faction (Erebor) has such clear advantage (even if that unit is completely useless).
I hope that you are able to understand me. :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Aug 2015, 23:37
I support Tiberius and Tienity!An extra unit is an extra unit!All dwarven realms should have both differences and balance! :-) And all Draco says is basically that he loves "his"  "perfect" Erebot and want it to be the strongest and more uniqe than other's!While each fraction has its strengths and weaknesses an extra unit is no fair for the other! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 7. Aug 2015, 00:09
I support Tiberius and Tienity!An extra unit is an extra unit!All dwarven realms should have both differences and balance! :-) And all Draco says is basically that he loves "his"  "perfect" Erebot and what it to be the strongest and more uniqe than other's!While each fraction has its strengths and weaknesses an extra unit is no fair for the other! :-)
LOL I mean LOL WTF OMG I have no expressions to explain how I am feelling, well firstly you cant say that this made erebor the stronger because Ered Luin is OP because of Heros, and Ironhills Infantry is extreamly strong, so WTF, Now erebor with medium infantry and 1 damn non-used unit have to be deleted? Camon, I simply love their use I mean, make an earthquake with this siege machines is very cool. Im not worried about this, because i still have the choice to use my mighty catapults far away more powerfull than any other faction. Pls check firstly Ered Luin heros than this shit, camon no one use erebor online, all people use Ered Luin because of their damn heros, OP with Fate rune. This is incredible, well Im agree with Iron Ballistas, camon even with the ridicoulous ram riders, but the earthshackers? camon this is pointless in comparison with a lot of balance bugs that the mod have now. This earthshackers are simply cool, and dont represent any advantage ¿WHY? Because I have damn catapults with high damage and this will destroy entire bases in seconds.  So pls, stop saying that this make Erebor the strongest faction because its a enormous lie. before again start the same discussion, check this "advantage" and try to destroy a damn farm. You will see what "advantage" is this.
I call any creator to share his opinion here, Must be deleted earthshackers?
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 00:32
First of all I have never said that Erebor is the strongest!It is clear that the strongest is Ered Luin cuz of its tough infantry and OP heroes!So I will not bother to explain myself more than I have already did few times!
 :-)
P.S.Read my comments properly before jump to.conclusion! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 7. Aug 2015, 00:45
And all Draco says is basically that he loves "his"  "perfect" Erebot and want it to be the strongest and more uniqe than other's¡
Nothing to say. I took the comment in that way, ( i want erebor the strongest)
Oh, and this earthshackers make erebor the strongest okok . I have understand this from your comment.
I wont post in this thread anymore, nothing more to say. -_-
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 00:50
Read what I have said that you want Erebor to be the strongest I do not want it to all I want is equality between the three ! :-) And I have never said the Earth Shaker make them the strongest all I said was that an extra unit is an extra unit and there should be balance either new Unit for others or to remove the Shaker! Post if you want no one is forcing you but before you answer read properly and answer politely with reason and facts to defend your opinion properly! :-) Have a nice day :-) :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Aug 2015, 01:00
I support Tiberius and Tienity!An extra unit is an extra unit!All dwarven realms should have both differences and balance! :-) And all Draco says is basically that he loves "his"  "perfect" Erebot and want it to be the strongest and more uniqe than other's!While each fraction has its strengths and weaknesses an extra unit is no fair for the other! :-)

I support Tienety's idea too, since we are not talking about Dwarven 'Subfactions', but Dwarven 'Factions', with relevant differences that define them, given also the different physical environments in which these realms were established; still remaining, obviously, factions of a common Dwarven Culture.

I personally like the ballistas and the Ram Riders concepts, also because they would symbolise very well what the Iron Hills are at that particular moment, an impressive warfare factory with a lot of creativity, militarily speaking  :)
I'm generally always for innovative (not too much strange or grotesque) concepts that give us a richer and more diverse representation of the different elements of the respective factions.

This is incredible, well Im agree with Iron Ballistas, camon even with the ridicoulous ram riders, but the earthshackers? camon this is pointless in comparison with a lot of balance bugs that the mod have now.

I find instead the Ram Riders one of the most characteristic concepts of BOTFA (apart from the other over the top things) and very interesting, that could explain wisely what means the Dwarves of the Iron Hills use in their realm/environment.
I personally think that this concept would fit very well in the Edain Mod, as for the other BOTFA elements that were rightly implemented in the game (Lord Dáin's concept and Thorin's royal armour).   
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 7. Aug 2015, 01:09
Im agree to add new units I only dont want to see removed the earthshackers, with no real reasons. But dont put in danger the existence of the earthshackers to support the appear of new units. Completely agree with Tienety, and Die Walkure.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 01:23
And what different I said from Walkure or Tienity!? I said that to be fair there should be new units fornother factions or just remove yhe earth shakers but ad I said I am more for adding new units than rather remove units! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 7. Aug 2015, 10:45
And what different I said from Walkure or Tienity!? I said that to be fair there should be new units fornother factions or just remove yhe earth shakers but ad I said I am more for adding new units than rather remove units! :-)

Sup.
I have a wee proposition, if i'd have a moment of your time  xD

What if you just... GAVE UP ! ;) on giving more siege weapons to other dwarven realms?
Erebor is the siege faction(They should have more siege than others).
Ered luin gets their heroes(Two more than the other realms).
Iron hills gets their armor penetrating axes (And by the way, those + slaughterers tear through all Isengard infantry; even with shield uruks, and the steelworks upgrades [uglybunti])

To be honest, the only thing that should happen is the earth-hammer getting a buff.
Such as, it having more health, and doing some damage to units it hits; like a mini word of power :P.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 11:02
Why dot you try to think of balance and game play an extra unit is and extra unit in the same way we can give Iron Hills and extra Unit Infatry especially with damage against monster's and we will say that they're speciality so it is ok!?We can give Mithril Mail to Ered Luin Infantry and say Armor is their speciality!!
Armor Penetrating Axes is like War Masks and Siege Hammers each is for the specialty of Each Kingdom so try to use reasonble and valid points and read that a lot of other people agree with the Siege Hammers question! :-) So would you consider just sodding off! :D Have a nice day :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 7. Aug 2015, 11:19
Why dot you try to think of balance and game play an extra unit is and extra unit in the same way we can give Iron Hills and extra Unit Infatry especially with damage against monster's and we will say that they're speciality so it is ok!?We can give Mithril Mail to Ered Luin Infantry and say Armor is their speciality!!
Armor Penetrating Axes is like War Masks and Siege Hammers each is for the specialty of Each Kingdom so try to use reasonble and valid points and read that a lot of other people agree with the Siege Hammers question! :-) So would you consider just sodding off! :D Have a nice day :-)

What if we, say did this scenario:
Isengard has two sub-factions, only one of these sub-factions has an extra unit.
This unit is unlocked exactly when the Uruk hai swordsmen are unlocked
And this unit has the exact same stats, only it has new skin.
Would that make this sub-faction of isengard better than others in any way, except fun?.

And, Erebor's extra unit doesn't really affect anything, because it is never used.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 11:24

Please don't post that kind of comments in any topic, not even like joke. This is dissusion, people here polish ideas, that is point. If you see this pointless, why you then wrote comment in first place?

You can't compare factions in this way... That kind of balance is wrong in general (Ered Luin have strong heroes so they don't need any good kind of infantry? Or Iron Hills don't need strong heroes because they have strong infantry?). I don't see things in that way. (I know you wrote correct facts there, Ered Luin has OP heroes, but that doesn't mean they don't need new siege unit with unique properties)
They (Erebor dwarves) are siege faction, like all dwarven faction in general. Ok they are more than other faction (Gloin). At main comment which LordDain wrote idea is clear, other faction should get siege weapons with different purposes. Balista isn't siege (building destroy) weapon, it is antimonster weapon (very nice idea), about ered luin i must admit that I don't see point in ladders (I also don't have idea for this new siege weapon). So Erebor will stay top building destroyer as faction. Also I am not for idea of removing shakers, simply they need some kind of change (armour buff, attack change etc). They represent very nice idea in general.
And one very clear statement:
Earth Shakers are not useless for sure! Only if some of you people don't play with them that is other problem. They will become more popular with some change (Maybe greater armour, change of cd of attack, change of attack in general etc). I support idea about adding 2 more unique siege unit in general.

P.S. Also someone wrote that shakers are nothing (So other factions don't need new siege units, there is nothing to balance. Really? Have you tried to use 4 Shakers at same time on same area? Damage is great on buildings! I don't say this is easy to do, but they are not useless or "nothing". Simply, try to think in this way, two new units should also have unique way of using them. This is balance about numbers as Tiberius said).

Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 7. Aug 2015, 11:24
Why dot you try to think of balance and game play an extra unit is and extra unit in the same way we can give Iron Hills and extra Unit Infatry especially with damage against monster's and we will say that they're speciality so it is ok!?We can give Mithril Mail to Ered Luin Infantry and say Armor is their speciality!!
Armor Penetrating Axes is like War Masks and Siege Hammers each is for the specialty of Each Kingdom so try to use reasonble and valid points and read that a lot of other people agree with the Siege Hammers question! :-) So would you consider just sodding off! :D Have a nice day :-)

What if we, say did this scenario:
Isengard has two sub-factions, only one of these sub-factions has an extra unit.
This unit is unlocked exactly when the Uruk hai swordsmen are unlocked
And this unit has the exact same stats, only it has new skin.
Would that make this sub-faction of isengard better than others in any way, except fun?.

And, the factions are already specialized, Ered luin gets two more heroes than the others. I can't really say what Iron hills advantage is besides how great their infantry does vs other infantry, when compared the other two sub-factions.
But, while Ered luin gets two more heroes, Erebor has their Earth-shaker.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 7. Aug 2015, 11:26
Sup.
I have a wee proposition, if i'd have a moment of your time  xD

What if you just... GAVE UP ! ;)

Please don't post that kind of comments in any topic, not even like joke. This is dissusion, people here polish ideas, that is point. If you see this pointless, why you then wrote comment in first place?

Erebor is the siege faction(They should have more siege than others).
Ered luin gets their heroes(Two more than the other realms).
Iron hills gets their armor penetrating axes (And by the way, those + slaughterers tear through all Isengard infantry; even with shield uruks, and the steelworks upgrades [uglybunti])
You can't compare factions in this way... That kind of balance is wrong in general (Ered Luin have strong heroes so they don't need any good kind of infantry? Or Iron Hills don't need strong heroes because they have strong infantry?). I don't see things in that way. (I know you wrote correct facts there, Ered Luin has OP heroes, but that doesn't mean they don't need new siege unit with unique properties)
They (Erebor dwarves) are siege faction, like all dwarven faction in general. Ok they are more than other faction (Gloin). At main comment which LordDain wrote idea is clear, other faction should get siege weapons with different purposes. Balista isn't siege (building destroy) weapon, it is antimonster weapon (very nice idea), about ered luin i must admit that I don't see point in ladders (I also don't have idea for this new siege weapon). So Erebor will stay top building destroyer as faction. Also I am not for idea of removing shakers, simply they need some kind of change (armour buff, attack change etc). They represent very nice idea in general.
And one very clear statement:
Earth Shakers are not useless for sure! Only if some of you people don't play with them that is other problem. They will become more popular with some change (Maybe greater armour, change of cd of attack, change of attack in general etc). I support idea about adding 2 more unique siege unit in general.

P.S. Also someone wrote that shakers are nothing (So other factions don't need new siege units, there is nothing to balance. Really? Have you tried to use 4 Shakers at same time on same area? Damage is great on buildings! I don't say this is easy to do, but they are not useless or "nothing". Simply, try to think in this way, two new units should also have unique way of using them. This is balance about numbers as Tiberius said).

Dude, if you have 4 shakers, you could've gotten 4 catapults, or 4 demolishers.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 11:30
CragLord is absolutely right!And you shouldn't call the Dwarven Kingdoms Sub-Factions because they are not that they are an absolutely separated and different fully functional Factions!A sub faction is Dale ,Lake Town ,Mirkwood and.etc and even there there is a balance of the units and their numbers :-) :-)
And I is some people doesnt like to use Shakers or cant use them doesnt mean that others cant to! :-) With some changes the Shakers can become more useful and easy to use which would like a lot but still yhe other two Kingdoms should get new ones for the sake of balance but they will also be limited like the Shakers! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 11:34

It is about area damage, not single target damage. And here we don't polemicize
about catapult vs shaker or demolisher vs shaker. I just say shakers are not useless. And if you noticed only that from my previous post, then I don't have much more to say.

P.S. Please use spoiler button when you place comment like that, because of disscusion overview.  ;)  :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: ™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™ am 7. Aug 2015, 11:46
The point is that it is not an advantage over the other factions.
I am done, good night.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 11:47
I am with you CragLord they see only fraction of what he wrote and only what they want to see!I think any further discussion with them is pointless :-) :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 11:57
As I said above, other new units also shouldn't be some kind of advatange for other factions.  :) Simply you didn't try to undestand idea in general, you (and other similar comments) stuck with no advantage unit = no balance.

P.S. Sweet dreams.  xD


Thank you Dain, I know you are with me. I think it is versa, that I am here supporting your topic&idea!  :D  ;)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 7. Aug 2015, 14:09
So everything that you are trying to say is that you want new siege for the others factions..ok agree, but not support your idea saying that if erebor have earthshackers  now isnt balanced xD I mean this is ridicolous you have to see the gameplay, not the numbers to balance a game, becaause as far as i know, Mordor have more units than any other faction, so have more variety and versatility, is this a balance problem? No, so why earthshackers must be a problem in erebor? I mean, talk clear to the team: WE WANT new sieges to ered Luin and Iron HIlls, And not say that the earthshackers isnt fair for erebor because it is simply useless to your real objective: get new sieges for other  2 factions. Completely agree in everything except on delete earthshackers.
Give the team new concepts of gameplay to this new sieges and probably it will work, but saying that isnt fair to erebor have the earthshacker wont help your objective. I mean, we have played a lot of years with the earthshackers there isnt any real reason to delete them.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 14:22
I never saud I want to delete thw Earth Shakers I just said that it is an opinion!I mych prefer to be done fe changes to them to make them more useful and cool than removing them! :-) Ans as Tiberius said an Extra Unit is extra unit the numbers says it all! :-) Plus the Team will never do or agree with anything if it is just "We want it do it !..." So we are providing reasonable numbers and facts to convince them that it will ba balanced,unique and reasonable to do it and will good for the game! :-)
P.S. Even so CragLord I am glad for the help amf support! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 14:32
Yes, we want new siege units! xD That is point of this topic. :) Erebor bonus unit isn't main reason, it is somehow inspiration for idea of adding new units, try to look in that way. I don't support idea about removing Earthshakers, I said that few times in comments above. And about balance, faction Erebor is unbalanced (because of Earth shakers) in number of avaliable units for production. I didn't say that earthshakers are OP like single Unit! They are not, currently, and this is not making any unbalance! (unbalance only exist in greater number of this unit,like I said above, if you successed to produce and somehow use few of them in same time with Gloin etc, they do rock and roll to buildings in area. You know this, you play with Erebor... Anyway, this is only effect you can get from this "extra" unit, and other faction can't. To be clear: Earthshakers are only reason for adding new unique siege, there is no reason for removing them.)  I am not for making them op or some hardcore buff, I am maybe for changing them somehow, again I am not supporting or like idea about removing them. They represent very nice concept.
Simply you are stuck with someone's idea about removing them. :)

P.S. Balistas should be same for IronHils, good against Monsters, but should have some limitations like Earthshakers have great attack cool down... Simply, I think you understand my preposition in general, just you are stuck with that removing. :) I am not for idea about removing them. :)
 
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 15:26
Well said CragLord !I couldn't have said it better myself!I to want Shakera to be buffed a little not removing them and on that base we can add new.Units for other factions! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 7. Aug 2015, 16:21
Earth shaker definitely is not fair and not conceptual as well. It's advantage for Erebor in comparison with Iron Hills and Ered Luin.
I really don't know if earth shaker is "usable" or which advantages has but I would remove it completely and add him as a final spell which causes earthquake.
And we will solve two issues/threads.

Best solution.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 7. Aug 2015, 16:43
So do we have some conclusions?
It seems that Earth shaker should stay but little bit stronger and more useful and in that case remaining Dwarven kingdoms need something new for siege, but it should be similar with function to earth shaker, otwherwise will be problem that some Dwarven kingdom will have better unit than the rest.


Best solution.
And conceptual and mainly very easy, but it seems that discussion opened the door to the new and maybe unique units, so hard to say. xD
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 16:48
No Sir Stig, it is not solution at all. That suggestion is way to end this disscusion early. :P
This disscussion is about adding new units in game, really don't know why people see problem in earth shakers. That unit is just motive for this idea and disscusion in general. We now need to concentrate on that new units, propose some abilities for them, usage of them and so on... Shakers stay, they just need some polishing...

Tiberius, do you mean in siege unit for building damage or siege "bonus" unit in general? Because main idea is to add siege units but not for purpose of making damage to buildings. 
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 7. Aug 2015, 17:00
Tiberius, do you mean in siege unit for building damage or siege "bonus" unit in general? Because main idea is to add siege units
In general - for instance Dwarven ballista is completely different kind of siege machine than earth shaker is.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Aug 2015, 17:35
Yes, in general all 3 unique sieqe units should be for different usage, ballista is better than shaker for monster slaying, but shaker does what he does, structure area damage, for third unit I still don't have idea. Any of them has it's main role. Can't compare them in general. Will be ballista better than shaker? Sure it will be more usefull for monster slaying but that is its role. Will be ballista more used in game that shaker? I don't know, that depends on player strategy, enemy strategy etc...I really don't know what more to say about "balance" problem. Main idea that still holds me in this disscussion/topic is that Dwarves like great engineers should have elite siege units, because of that I liked this topic from start. :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Aug 2015, 18:05
I agree with CragLord !Shakers will do they're stuff while the other to Kingdoms will get ne Units based on the Faction strengths!Likr Iron Hils as DMG faction will get Ballista strongh against Monster's and some light damage against Infantry but will be limited to 4-5 Max Units!As for Ered Luin I too can't think of something may be since their main stretgh(aside from the OP Heroes) is their tough Units and strong Armor  so may be a Unit whicj will protect its Soldiers near enemy walls from their towers and archers but not too big deffensr or it will be OP! :-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Aug 2015, 21:24
Ok, I got an idea about third unit, just I need some backup by design and look about unit. (LordDain's idea in general)
Ered Luin is faction with OP heroes and infantry with great armour, so maybe is not bad idea to add some siege shield as new unique siege unit. As LordDain said, this fits nicely in faction global properties.
So idea is that new "siege shield" will be support unit for catapults. So this unit should protects catapults from other siege attacks, and also against arrows/fire arrows. Health of this unit shouldn't be great. Enought hp to block damage of 2-3 shoots of other catapults (depends on type of attacking unit) and ensure survival of Ered Luin catapult. So this unit represent support siege unit. When it is ussed on catapult, it protects catapuls from attacks, but immobilise catapult in short period of time (can't move, can shoot). In general maybe to produce unit which is similar to "uruk shield", but for support of siege unit. :)
Some pictures I found:
Futhermore,also got idea how to make shakers more useful. Maybe would be nice to add new kind of form which will be selectable for shakers. I got idea when was playing with Necromancer, and with that unit we have possibility of chose between two forms (Attack=Fire form, Support=Dark form). So two forms for shakers, Disable unit form in whick shakers have attack of shorter cd (really shorter!), but their attack do only disable on units (almost no damage to buildings), and Building destroy form in which shakers do what they do now, do a massive damage to buildings, but have great attack cd.
Also to somehow make some armour upgrade for them, which will make them stronger and more durable.
About ballista for iron hills I suggest that unit will have only monster slaying role (shooting on trolls, giants, mumakils etc) and will do small area disable damage on units (almost no damage on units, only disable). This makes balista and earth shakers almost in ballance, both can somehow disable units and have different roles.
Also I have idea about adding new kind of building for dwarves in general. That building will be required for production of new elite siege units, also won't be soo expensive and will be required for casting "Earthquake power".  Look of that building will include already known Earth Hammer:
Insted that aside poles (Remove poles) (http://s5.postimg.org/x02351rtz/Poles.png), I will suggest new aside parts like 2 new structures, maybe look of that aside buildings will be similar to red/black circled one from this picture:
And on that new aside parts (structuress) will be represented some symols of balista/siege shield, so we have unique bonus siege building.

Edit: Ok, also what about idea of integration of Windlance insted siege shield? I know this sounds maybe funny, or too difficult, but maybe windlance is good siege weapon for Ered Luin (One existed in Lake Town, and LT is Ered Luin's Outpost).
Windlance could have unique property of attacking only flying units so this unit will be useful against Smaug/Dragons/Fellbeasts/Eagles/etc. Windlance could have model of smaller ballista, and it's attack projectile model should be black arrows models from game (with maybe size modification).
So we will have next trio : Siege shield/Earthshaker/Ballista or Windlance/Earthshaker/Ballista.
In my opinion it would be sad with no trying to implement this epic sieqe weapon from movie... I presume that model is difficult, or maybe is better question is possible to make that Windlance like balista attack air units?

What you think about this? Similar ideas to help polishing this suggestion? xD :D
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 9. Aug 2015, 01:19
well Earth Shaker are fair and balanced they have a cd and need protection because they have low hp
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 9. Aug 2015, 01:55
Gray, must admit you that nowadays I simply enjoy while reading your comments. (**)  (**)  (**)  :D  (Or to be precise content of that comments).   
Tell me why do you think shakers are fair and balanced? Balanced in which way? [ugly]
And what is purpose of your ascertainment that shakers have cd? Meanwhile, that ascertainment about low hp and protection looks very promising. 
P.S. Read this carefully.  xD
Cheers bro  (**)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 9. Aug 2015, 07:17
Shakers are not balanced nor strong enough at all!They need some little buff and that is something I think we all agree about! :)
Now CragLord you got my point about the deffensive Siege Unit for Ered Luin that is exactly what I thought but wasn't ableto post picsfrom my phone! :) The Idea of some Siege Unit protection and may be Ram Protection under the Gates is really good and will represent well the Deffensive nature ofthe Realm! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: Tienety am 9. Aug 2015, 09:40
i like this idea about Siege shield/Earthshaker/Ballista for dwarven subfactions. ;)
But why a new building for only one unit? These units can be available in the Dwarven siegeworks. :o

I think that Windlance is more fit as a defensive weapon on wall in fortress or for Dale/Lake-Town outpost. 8-)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: CragLord am 9. Aug 2015, 14:05
I presumed you thought about shields. ;) I mentioned that in proposal. :)
What about my idea of shakers? Two selectable forms?

Tienety, maybe I was wrong in discription of idea. That building is not for production, that new building is mainly because that big hammer and "Earthquake" power from Powers Meni. Unique units will be avaliable in Siege works of course. Just wanted to connect somehow new unique siege units and new unique building. So new building will be required to cast power "Earthquake" (Dwarves are not mages so they could cast Earthquake, they need some kind of device), and be required so you can produce new units from siege works. Anyway if this proposal about new units and their production is too much, I dispose it.
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 9. Aug 2015, 14:14
I like the idea about the choosable mode of the Shakerst this way they will be more diversed and will have wider are  for use! :) But wouldnt that make them somwhat strogner than itss couunterparts in other realms!? :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Aug 2015, 22:19
So I have made a Poll which I think summs up all the options we have about the Siege Units and ideas,if someone doesnt agree he should just tell me and I will change the Poll a little! :)
So lets Vote and see the opinion of the Fans yet again! :)
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Okt 2015, 11:56
It seems, that only I, voted for third option - that Earth shaker really is not fair. xD
Titel: Re: Earth Shaker is it fair!? :)
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Okt 2015, 16:59
Well we can hope that the Team will at least consider the options and the suggestions! :)