Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

[VectorMaximus]

The effects the One Ring has is directly proportional to how much magical ability (or how mighty) someone was to begin with. So for people such as Isildur, Bilbo, and Frodo, it only grants invisibility, having no magical power of their own. On the other hand, the One, when wielded (or theoretically wielded) by mighty beings such as Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, or Sauron, has a multiplying effect on their power.

However, its never said whether its said if he wanted it to provide invisibility. However, this One Ring, the Master Ring, was meant to be the greatest of them all (obviously that failed; the One does not have the same powers as say the 3, for example). And some of the lesser 'trial' rings granted invisibility. So I would not be surprised at all if it had Invisibility built into it from the beginning.

As for what purpose the invisibility could serve? Sauron, mastermind though he is, has a track record of actually losing his confrontations when on the battlefield himself. He is master tactician, administrator and manipulator, not a warrior. So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.

[Hamanathnath]

The effects the One Ring has is directly proportional to how much magical ability (or how mighty) someone was to begin with. So for people such as Isildur, Bilbo, and Frodo, it only grants invisibility, having no magical power of their own. On the other hand, the One, when wielded (or theoretically wielded) by mighty beings such as Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, or Sauron, has a multiplying effect on their power.

However, its never said whether its said if he wanted it to provide invisibility. However, this One Ring, the Master Ring, was meant to be the greatest of them all (obviously that failed; the One does not have the same powers as say the 3, for example). And some of the lesser 'trial' rings granted invisibility. So I would not be surprised at all if it had Invisibility built into it from the beginning.

As for what purpose the invisibility could serve? Sauron, mastermind though he is, has a track record of actually losing his confrontations when on the battlefield himself. He is master tactician, administrator and manipulator, not a warrior. So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.

Interesting.  Still, I don't think Sauron would intentionally want the One Ring to give invincibility.  Even though he is not a great warrior, I think the power he would get from the One Ring would make him strong enough to win against pretty much anyone.  I would imagine there would be a very small amount of people that could defeat Sauron once he has the One Ring(or, at least, that is what he would think before Isildur defeated him).

And Sauron doesn't seem to be very cautious.  I would argue that if he was more cautious, he would not have lost the ring in the first place, so I don't think he would even want a function that allows him to escape combat. 

Of course, you know much more then me when it comes to this lore, so correct me if I'm wrong with anything I say.   

[VectorMaximus]

Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power. However, I personally believe that even if Isildur failed to get the ring off him, he still would have lost to the Alliance.

And also, the Ring's ability to grant invisibility could also be used for manipulative reasons (this of course, back when he was still fair). He could walk among his enemies and whisper in their ears, spread doubt and suspicion, his enemies believing his voice is  their own worries.

[Hamanathnath]

Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power. However, I personally believe that even if Isildur failed to get the ring off him, he still would have lost to the Alliance.

And also, the Ring's ability to grant invisibility could also be used for manipulative reasons (this of course, back when he was still fair). He could walk among his enemies and whisper in their ears, spread doubt and suspicion, his enemies believing his voice is  their own worries.

Yeah I guess that makes more sense.   I guess there is no definite answer, but I would be willing to believe that he would use it to spread doubt, or potentially spy on them. 

That is actually a question I've had for a while.  I really appreciate you answering it.

[Adamin]

So my question is not why does it make you invisible, but actually, Did Sauron want the One Ring to do that?  If so, why?  What purpose does that serve?

Good question.
Yes, the Ring brings you into the Unseen World, the Wraith World, and thus turns you invisible for everyone who only dwells in the Seen World.
But why he does that is something, I don't think I ever heard of. ^^

I think Galadriel mentions, that someone who could use the ring, wouldn't turn invisible. So like VectorMaximus mentioned, only People without a strong Will or magical powers will turn invisible "by default".
(though I would actually say Isildurs Will might have been strong enough. Same goes for Aragorn btw.)

So my speculation would be that the invisibility part was just another unplanned side effect of the ring, that Sauron never expected that or used it in that way.
As you said Hamanathnath, I also think it doesn't make sense for Sauron, who could have controlled and beaten enemies with the ring, to use it for hidden attacks or stealth missions.
After all, we know of Saurons greatest manipulative Mission: The Seduction of Numenor. And he did it definetly WITHOUT the One Ring.

So why does the One Ring Transport you into the Unseen World? What is the Unseen World anyway?
No idea.
Maybe it is a world where Spirits are much easier to access? Since the One Ring gives you the power to dominate minds, maybe he's channeling your power into the Unseen in order to dominate other Spirits from there?
Maybe. Who knows... ^^

So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.

Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)

Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.

Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.

[Walküre]

Just for the sake of the discussion, I would like to redirect everyone to a very specific explanation of the Unseen World given by Tolkien Gateway, based on passages of the Silmarillion and LOTR.

It's basically another dimension, mainly 'inhabited' by powerful spiritual creatures of all sort, good and evil.
And, if I understood rightly, the difference between the two dimensions is very narrow in Aman, and the Elves of Valinor can exist in both 

Though, I can't find any explanation why the One Ring can grant this particular property.

[VectorMaximus]

So if invisibility was built into the ring back when he could be fair, it could also serve as a way of him escaping defeat.

Back when he was fair, means also back when he could take any form he wanted. Why should he Need to turn invisible then in order to flee, when he just as well Change his form into something unnoticeable, or maybe completely leave his Body behind?
(though I'm not 100 % sure if Sauron could have leaft his Body...)

Fair enough, but being invisible is in my opinion a better escape method then transforming. You are still able to open any necessary doors, grab tools or objects you may want, and you cannot be seen, obviously(though not untouchable, to be fair).

Sauron loses the Ring because he gets cocky off his victory over the 2 High-Kings, personally. He's not expecting Isildur or anyone being able to defeat him at this point. That's why he goes to 'humiliate' his enemies in killing Isildur by choking, to serve as an example of his power.

Nope.
Just in the movie version.
In the book Sauron lost in an epic brawl against Gil-Galad AND Elendil AND Elrond AND Cirdan AND Isildur, all at once. Sauron was already lying defeated on the ground (after killing Gil-Galad and Elendil) when Isildur stepped up and cut the One Ring off his finger.

Yeah I know that, the whole 'Sauron got cocky' is just my way of explaining away the movie beginning, which just really annoys me to be honest. We could have had such an epic brawl!

[bookworm1138]

i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring, as his power was greater than that of Sauron (whether you want to believe that Tom is Eru or a personification of Nature, it stands to reason that either A] Eru cannot be conquered by Sauron, a being of lesser might than Melkor/Morgoth, who himself is below Eru in power, or B] Sauron's power was not yet strong enough that he could overcome ALL of nature, though Elrond hinted in The Council of Elrond that, given time, he would be strong enough and then Tom would fall at the very last)

[Fine]

i was of the belief that, from reading the books, the invisibility came as a result of the Rings of Power dominating their bearers. that would explain why the Dwarves never turned invisible (because they were hardier), and why the Elven Rings never turned their bearers invisible, since they were not made by Sauron and not designed for dominating others. that is why Tom Bombadil didn't turn invisible when he put on the Ring.

Makes sense, I can get behind that. Although I do wonder if the Nine Rings of Men did turn their bearers invisible - In my head, I think they did not, but were instead worn openly as signs of power, as is the nature of Men (who were deceived by Sauron); wanting to be superior to others and showing their status.
I wonder at what point the Nine became the wraiths they were during the War of the Ring; since they do not need to wear their rings to remain invisible (iirc they did not wear the rings in the Third Age). I also wonder why Sauron took their rings from them - was he planning to use them on other men to create even more Ringwraiths?

[lord_ellessar]

I'm aware of the fact, that "fly" can mean "flee". But can you prove that Tolkien meant "flee" in this special case? That's what I doubt, not that it can mean "flee".

Well yes, as I said the fact that Tolkien frequently used flight in that sense seemed like a pretty good proof to me. I guess you could also look up how this specific passage was translated in a version where the translator worked closely together with Tolkien (like the german Carroux Translation for example, unfortunatly I can't look mine up atm). I suppose it is not too farfetched that this passage would also have been noticed by a translator.

But I think you're looking for proof in form of a defintive answer from Tolkien, like a letter or the like. That I guess you already know that there is none.


So okay, let's look at it from another angle. Let's assume Gandalfs perspective during his confrontation for a moment:

Gandalf who is desperately trying to get Frodo (and the Fellowship) unharmed through Moria. At the last moment the Balrog catches up with them. Gandalf knows that he is the only one powerful enough to do anything against this foe, but even this might not be enough. He is trying to stop him at the bridge, opposes him with his magic ("the dark fire will not avail you!" after which the fire of the Balrog does dwindle for a moment), and even deflects one direct blow (breaking the blade of fire).
It is at that point that Gandalf decides: "I will break the bridge under him, so that we might be able to flee."

This makes no sense if the Balrog could fly. Why should Gandalf even try this? Why would he assume that breaking the bridge will throw the Balrog off balance? The Balrog would catch up with them just a moment later. It would be annoying sure, but not really effective. This would make Gandalf pretty stupid for even trying something that would obviously be ineffectual.

But maybe Gandalf planned to wrestle the Balrog in midair and thus hinder him from flying!
That makes even less sense! First remember that the Balrog pulled Gandalf down with his whip. Gandalf did not plan to fall with the Balrog, he didn't used the bridge as spring board, deliberatly jumping into the chasm. So even if he could have prevented the Balrog to just fly back up, it was definetly not something he did by choice.
Second, could Gandalf honestly prevented the Balrog from flying? I mean yeah, the scene in the movies looks great and all and Gandalf is pretty powerful, but how exactly should that work? The winged Balrog could have regained his balance in midair and dodged Gandalf, because I suppose Gandalf can't really (quickly) change the direction in which he falls. In the movies they were both just falling. Otherwise, Gandalf would have to jump onto the flying Balrog and somehow keep hanging on him, which I'm pretty sure the Balrog would do anything against.

And this is Gandalfs Plan to stop the winged Balrog? As I said, this doesn't really paint Gandalf as a competent, foresightful character. (Which as the rest of the story shows us is exactly what he's supposed to be!)


That's why I'm pretty sure that this age old question can be with reasonable certainty answered. Of course you can choose to interpret the few passages als literally descriptive, but by doing so you're missing a lot of context.

So, I assume that the balrog is Just like a big ostrich ?

[Walküre]

If you are new to this section, welcome to the Lore Corner 

That was a structured, detailed and highly advanced speculation from Adamin; actually one of the first ones of this space.
He too loves speculations, even if he won't admit it so openly 

[lord_ellessar]

I'm new in this corner but i don't have too few knowledge about the lotr universe

[Walküre]

I'm new in this corner but i don't have too few knowledge about the lotr universe

If you don't feel comfortable, for now, with debating lore matters, you can just ask any question you are interested into or have doubts about, in case you wanted to seek for answers.

This space was also established for answering people's questions – as the title of the thread suggests – as long as enabling lore discussions among ourselves 

[lord_ellessar]

Well I had a rhetoric question, it's about the rams of the botfa, I personally really liked them and I wanted to know if i m alone to think that it really fit with the dwarves, I mean even if the dwarven people is really strong, endured and all and all I know that rams can climb cliffs that a men (or a dwarf) couldn't do easily especially during a battle, so I really liked this idea... But the boar of Dain is more controversial for me, even if he is nice (even if I think it should be bigger) it doesn't fit to walk on escarped ways of the dwarven hills mountains, so, can someone argue against me for the boar or against the rams...

i know that it's more about the movies but if we forget the movie, my question is about dwarven facilities on the high mountains

[VectorMaximus]

While I definitely agree that goats are more befitting of the Iron Hills terrain, I don't really have any major issues with the boar. I imagine the dwarves raise them for the meat, and it's not outside the realm of possibility that Dain bred one to ride cause he wanted to, or to signify his position in a charge of goats.