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Autor Thema: Heroes - how powerful should they be?  (Gelesen 26106 mal)

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #45 am: 14. Okt 2015, 17:13 »
If a hero has both melee and ranged modes, both have to be useful. If the ranged mode is better in all situations, we might as well kick the switch entirely, and I don't think people would want that. More armor in melee isn't really an advantage - it just helps counteract the fact that you're in way more danger in melee. But why choose that in the first place if you can just stay back, deal the same or even more damage with the bow and not get attacked in the first place? What's your incentive to go into melee?

Zitat
In general: In my view, all heroes are too weak in late game. Even if you have them in the middle of your army, their weak health and armor values mean that they end up dead much faster than your main army of troops. I think a balance should be found, between their health values originally and in the recent update that heavily nerfed them.
That heavy nerf was 500 health for every hero, so between less than 10% and 15% depending on the hero. We could easily increase it by 250 or so again, I'm just surprised this makes such a massive difference.

It might also be that heroes are too vulnerable against certain types of damage? Would you say they die too fast against any kind of enemy (including swordsmen, cavalry etc.) or is it mainly focus fire by archers and attacks by other heroes? We need to be careful when buffing heroes and determine whether they really need to stronger against everything or against certain enemies only.

I've noted your points about individual heroes and will look into them, thanks for sharing :) I agree, for example, that Eomer is a bit lackluster at the moment.

Zitat
Théoden is my favorite hero in the mod, Glorious Charge is the best ability ever. I do have a problem though, any ability that freezes units essentially negates this ability. So for Mordor, you can summon Shelob and freeze half the army of Rohirrim mid-charge, neutralizing most of the potency. I would like to see cavalry made immune to the effects of paralyzation while under the effect of Glorious Charge.
I have to say I think it's actually pretty cool when abilities have some counterplay instead of being just "press this button to win the battle". Why shouldn't you be able to stop a cavalry charge with a stun? In general, it's not possible to make units immune against stuns in any case, you can only make them immune against fear effects.
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Skeeverboy

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #46 am: 14. Okt 2015, 17:28 »
Zitat
We could easily increase it by 250 or so again
I don't think that heroes need a buff, the game is very hero-heavy at the moment. In Lategame the player with the higher level hero wins, because they can kill heroes with lower level and can kill armys with their skills.
Next patch will all units 20-30% fewer live, I hope this will be so for heroes too.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #47 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:02 »
you cant spam heroes like units man and they die fast so whats the point in having a hero just spam units

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #48 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:06 »
Zitat
Well, in late game when both players have big armies with upgrades, not in lopsided matches where 1 player is stronger, but where both players are more or less equal, heroes always just seem to die first.  I'm not sure what kind of damage it is, I think its just the general lack of health and armor means that they die faster then a battalion of upgraded elite units. This is especially true with Isengard and Gondor. By the way Skeever, obviously if your winning a very 1 sided game and your heroes are higher level, they are going to win the match for you. All my points here are if the players are more or less evenly matched. 1 thing is also certain, heroes are EXTREMELY vulnerable against fire arrows, they can shred through heroes in seconds. 3-4 Ranger battalions with fire arrows can kill most heroes, sometimes even if they are level 10.

Zitat
That's good to know, I've been wanting a buff for Eomer for some time, even made a thread about it, which got overrun by people wanting to make Erkenbrand a full hero  [uglybunti]

Zitat
Well, all Rohan really has against Mordor in the late game is Glorious Charge. So Shelob being able to freeze your entire army mid-charge, is, essentially, "press this button to win the battle". Late game Mordor's infantry is superior in every way to Rohan's peasants, and most players will have gotten the fire arrows on all of their sentry towers, making bases immune to Ent summon(which is the 2nd weakest 10 PP power in the game in my opinion, behind Gondor's Rohan Answers!). Shelobs web really does need a fix, being able to freeze the entire enemy army like that on top of Shelobs abilities is too much for a 3 point power. Its not so bad with Lothlorien because that's all their 3 point power does, and its a fairly short duration. Shelob's web lasts for a lot longer unless I'm crazy, and obviously you are still summoning Shelob, who can deal some good damage on her own. Its unfortunate that there's no way to make units immune to the effects of paralyzation.
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Skeeverboy

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #49 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:18 »
Zitat
All my points here are if the players are more or less evenly matched
I talking from this to.
Aragorn on Level 10 can kill 4 heroes, Aragorn on Level 1 just 2.
Gandalf on Level 1 can kill some Units, Gandalf on Level 10 can kill or damage a army very much.
Zitat
heroes always just seem to die first
Than don't run with your heroes in the big army, than they overlive and be very strong.
Zitat
Shelobs web really does need a fix, being able to freeze the entire enemy army like that on top of Shelobs abilities is too much for a 3 point power.
When Shelob's web were weaker nobody will use this spell. Don't clumb your army, when you don't want that Shelob freeze them.
Zitat
you cant spam heroes like units man and they die fast so whats the point in having a hero just spam units
Have I say something about herospamm? :o
My heroes overlive often the full game.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Okt 2015, 18:27 von Skeeverboy »

Odysseus

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #50 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:19 »
I mostly agree with what Skeeverboy says. I think similarly to Dawn of War II, your hero should support your army, not your army supporting your hero. It's the Battle for Middle Earth, a strategy game, concentrating more on troops and large scale battles than heroes, which the LOTR games do instead. I think heroes as of right now are in a good spot and most have a specific role and some interesting or lore-accurate abilities. That said, it is not perfect, some heroes indeed are a bit lackluster, or if not the case, feel a bit lackluster, Eomer being one of them, atleast, compared to the other mass slayers. Some on the other hand feel a bit strong, but they are not uncounterable so at least that solves that problem for me.

Nonetheless, heroes in general, can still take a beating in my opinion, and 15% is noticable, but not very significant as Lord of Mordor said. A significant buff often starts from around 25% and up, speaking from my past and current modding experiences.

What I do think does add to the frailty of some heroes is the back stab and retreat mechanics. Saruman, for example, is often seen as too fragile, not only because of his role in the movies and the lore that create a too powerful for balance image of him, but also because I find him rather slow. He can take quite a few hits from most units, but if he needs to get out of there, it is not really hard to chase him down and kill him. This is what I think is often overlooked. Often, when I see Saruman, I try to bait out his abilities, inflict damage on him, then chase him with approximately two cavalry or fast units and finish the job. It seems that this is part of some of the LOTR mechanics, but if units or heroes get attacked from the back, they seem to slow down and get ''stuck'' on their pursuers in a sense and it seems more damage is inflicted on them and more fragile heroes die  much faster when this happens. I think this also influences the image of heroes being more fragile.

Just blend your heroes with your armies as much as possible and keep on the micro, to make it hard for fragile heroes to get singled out is really all I can say. The ranged and melee attack argument should really be self-explanatory.

Most of you know this better than I do, but it's not so much about heroes anymore in Edain mod. Heroes are not one-man armies any longer. I am not saying it is better or worse this way, I have my own reserved opinion on that, but it is just different and it requires adjustment from the players.

Saying this, that or everything is useless or OP is just disheartening language, I think. It shows to me that you, as a player (talking in general), are viewing the gameplay experience negatively and only looking at the game for faults, not recognising the fault(s) can also be coming from your side. Improve thyself, then, when you are confident that you are on a level beyond any player at the game or mod, can you in my point of view, say this or that is OP, UP or useless.

Anyway, back on topic. I feel it is much better this way, instead of vanilla Lurtz and Gandalf slaughtering armies and heroes alike. Heroes are fun to use, and you are actually able to get them alongside your army since they don't cost a battalion worth of CP anymore.

I am far from an amazing player on BFME so, by all means, take my arguments with a grain of salt, but I feel that when I lose or make a frustrating mistake, I blame myself and strive to improve myself first, before blaming the game.

Just my two cents.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Okt 2015, 18:23 von Odysseus »
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Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #51 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:31 »
Zitat
We could easily increase it by 250 or so again
I don't think that heroes need a buff, the game is very hero-heavy at the moment. In Lategame the player with the higher level hero wins, because they can kill heroes with lower level and can kill armys with their skills.
Next patch will all units 20-30% fewer live, I hope this will be so for heroes too.
This.
Upgraded archers are the best weapon against heroes by design: unlike melee infantry all of them can attack at the same time, and focus firing has always been the way to go against a single entity. Rangers are the peak of this, if you want - on top of their already superior damage they get an ability that does great single target damage. They are supposed to be good at killing heroes, trolls and the like.


Zitat
Shelobs web really does need a fix, being able to freeze the entire enemy army like that on top of Shelobs abilities is too much for a 3 point power.
When Shelob's web were weaker nobody will use this spell. Don't clumb your army, when you don't want that Shelob freeze them.
I agree with KryptiK on this one, the web needs to have a smaller aoe. Otherwise, if the aoe is to stay the same, the duration needs to be reduced. I do favor the first solution though.


What I do think does add to the frailty of some heroes is the back stab and retreat mechanics. Saruman, for example, is often seen as too fragile, not only because of his role in the movies and the lore that create a too powerful for balance image of him, but also because I find him rather slow.
Saruman is as fast as every standard infantry unit. Apart from that, it's kind of your (not you personally, Odysseus) own fault when a hero gets isolated. Start retreating them a little bit earlier to keep them protected by the rest of your army and you should be good. Pretty much what you said later on: Micro is important.

[...]I feel that when I lose or make a frustrating mistake, I blame myself and strive to improve myself first, before blaming the game.
Well said. :)

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #52 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:33 »
Erkenbrand  should a full hero

Skeeverboy

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #53 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:44 »
Zitat
I agree with KryptiK on this one, the web needs to have a smaller aoe. Otherwise, if the aoe is to stay the same, the duration needs to be reduced. I do favor the first solution though.
Than Mordor needs a other Hero Killer, because Shelob is the once Counter that Mordor has against Heroes how Aragorn and Gandalf.
Erkenbrand  should a full hero
Than post your ideas in the Rohan Threat.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #54 am: 14. Okt 2015, 18:53 »
gandalf is a mass slayer but he dies very fast this is not my fault he just dies very fast and im mixing him with my arimes and he dose not do enough dmg to stronger units

CynasFan

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #55 am: 14. Okt 2015, 19:00 »
He might die fast, yes, but he can do, especially on higher Levels, a very great damage to your enemys army. And if you see, that he has only a few Points of life: RETREAT!
His true mightiest ability is his horse!
With them he can flee if bowman have a Focus on him and he will not die. It needs a little bit Micromanagement, but even I, as mostly SP-Player, can do this easilly and Gandalf need this little Armor, because with higher armor he would get OP!
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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #56 am: 14. Okt 2015, 19:04 »
Reducing the aoe of Shelob's web doesn't affect her ability to kill heroes whatsoever. It just reduces its strength against infantry, which is a little bit too much right now.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #57 am: 14. Okt 2015, 19:11 »
i think they should make a one unit counter gandalf or something or a hero countering gandalf or make him a lil bit cheaper 3000 gold is too much

Skeeverboy

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #58 am: 14. Okt 2015, 19:13 »
Zitat
i think they should make a one unit counter gandalf or something or a hero countering gandalf or make him a lil bit cheaper 3000 gold is too much
Gandalf can kills units, armys and heroes with spells, has a horse to be fast and he has at level 1 herokillerdamage. This is very strong, he is one of the stronges heroes in the game.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Heroes - how powerful should they be?
« Antwort #59 am: 14. Okt 2015, 19:20 »
his lvl 1 skill do more dmg to units and do nothing to heroes