Heroes - how powerful should they be?

[Lord of Mordor]

Yeah, that channel is primarily by and for people who prefer 3.8.1, as 4.0 was probably our most divisive version yet. But to each his own

When we reduce unit health, the damage of heroes (and most other things) will stay the same for now. After all, the whole point is that stuff will die faster And from what I've gathered, giving hero powers some more impact wouldn't go amiss. We don't want them to be as powerful as they used to be (units that cost 1000 or more shouldn't get oneshot by a single spell), but there's still room in between. If particular aspects turn out to be too strong with less health, we'll adjust them accordingly. Archer spam is what I'm probably most concerned about here, but with the Lorien release we'll have plenty of opportunity to see archers at their strongest and gauge their power.

Hero health, however, is another matter, and that's still up in the air. At the moment, I'm more inclined to leave it as it is for now and see how it goes. If it's too high, we can adjust it afterward, but I got the impression that right now hero health is already considered rather low. If they always die first like EliteKryptik said, bringing down units a bit and leaving heroes the same should balance things a bit.

Buffing heroes armor against fire arrows is ok, but please don't increase their resistance against regular arrows. Standard archers barely do no damage to heroes.

We'll start with just a buff against upgraded arrows then How much armor would you say is reasonable?

As for Isengard and Mordor, they are meant to become more powerful as the game goes on, but there should never be a point where you've basically won by default because you have survived long enough. If that's the case, we'll have to nerf the lategame of that faction. That's not really a discussion for this thread though.

[Elite KryPtik]

The Lord hath spoken, his will be done 

I would vote for a 25% armor increase for heroes against upgraded arrows, and I also strongly agree with leaving hero health the same. I think that will be the perfect balance if all units get a health nerf. Isengard and Mordor don't necessarily need to be nerfed,(well ok, maybe Isengard a little bit ) what needs to be strengthened is the other factions late game capabilities ESPECIALLY Rohan.

Skeever, no offence, but all I've ever seen you do is disagree. Are you not willing to try out new things? After all, not all people who play this are as good as you or I, or many of the others I have played with when I played on Tunngle. I am well aware its easy to shut down and destroy Isengard early game in 1v1, I was just recently suggesting to improve their early game a bit, which you ALSO disagreed with. Whenever you get into a team game of more than 2v2, if the enemy has an Isen Mordor and you don't, chances are you are going to lose, because the enemy army simply outclasses you. We can't do all of our balancing based off of 1v1 matches, we have to look at it on a larger scale. Anyways I won't talk any more about this here, its not the proper thread.

Also, I agree with everything Odysseus recently posted.

[Odysseus]

I am looking forward to trying the changes you have already mentioned. Babysteps will probably do the trick. Little bits here, little bobs there.

Edit:

Kryptik, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZL9pYfzUKE

Some of the matchups towards the latter part are something I'm sure you have something to say about

[Gandalf The Gray]

i say word of power needs a buff of dmg and nerf on cooldown make it a special skill that you will think i will use it at the right time or im fucked the cooldown should be long and the dmg grate

[Whale Sharku]

Babysteps will probably do the trick

That sounds possible to me, however there should always be distinct categories in which each little step can be valued, e.g.

"Did the step affect the optimal number of heroes recruited in a typical match?"
"Did the step affect in how people behave against heroes in certain situations"
and so on, in order to get a grasp onto the hidden dynamics.

I really, really suggest making a list and evaluating questions like these separated from each other.
You don't want to just take what feels best if you could create a much better situation with a little more patience.

[Gandalf The Gray]

rohan is cavalry  based faction and it has the weakest cavalry that what i saw on this vid

[Elite KryPtik]

Kryptik, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZL9pYfzUKE

Some of the matchups towards the latter part are something I'm sure you have something to say about

What is there to say? I already knew that Gondor cavalry was better than Rohan cavalry man for man. Rohan is still superior, for 4 reasons: all of their heroes can mount to provide support, they cost less money and cp, so you can get more of them for less than Gondor can, the Rohirrim of the Eastfold have a superior formation, and finally the cavalry of Rohan get many more leadership and support abilities to keep them alive longer. I don't really understand what people think doing a 1v1 matchup proves between only 2 battalions proves, every time an enemy Gondor has dared to try and out-cavalry me they've regretted it. Although if the team wanted to buff Royal Guard a bit I wouldn't be against it, I definitely think that Royal Guard are not worth their price tag right now.

Since this is related and we have Lord of Mordors attention, I will use this to segway to a bug that HAS to be fixed. The Military Camp 10 point power Rohirrim that are spawned for free are bugged, they cannot get horseman shields, and if you research the 3rd upgrade in the tent they do not spawn with either heavy armor or horseman shields. Also, I would recommend making them have a little bit more health and damage than the normal trainable Rohirrim, because after all tis a 10 point power late game ultimate spell.

[Lord of Mordor]

The best way to lose my attention is to derail this thread If it's not about heroes, it has no place here. Bugs should go in the according bug thread and we'll do our best to fix them (we being Ealendril, because that's not even my area ^^).

[Elite KryPtik]

The best way to lose my attention is to derail this thread If it's not about heroes, it has no place here. Bugs should go in the according bug thread and we'll do our best to fix them (we being Ealendril, because that's not even my area ^^).

Sorry 
To be fair, Odysseus started it 

[Lord of Mordor]

True! For shame!

[Skeeverboy]

I think we can make compromise:
In 3.8.1 Gandalfs Word of Power was having his cooldown on the beginning, when he reach level 10 or when you have recruit him on Level 10. (yeah i know good english )

So we can make so:
Gandalfs Word of Power makes higher Damage, but it has his cooldown when he reach level 10 or you recruite him.
So it isn't possible to let him die with intention.

[Gandalf The Gray]

well the team can make him spawn slower

[Odysseus]

It was mostly about the Royal Guard in the vid, but we are indeed talking about Heroes. I apologise. I was not thinking properly. I made the video a spoiler.

Overall health of heroes feels rather good to me, apart from perhaps some of the wizards, but their role as a mass slayer will become easier if troops have their overall health decreased so that might even it out a little.

From there, we can see if Word of Power still needs tweaks that have been mentioned. This sounds like a fair compromise to me, coming from both the team, the beta testers and the community.

[Bogdan Hmel]

DieWalküre,
  I am absolutely not against the heroes specialization. But I do not want all focus only on one specific role of the hero.
About Boromir, I mean that as a fighter he should be stronger Hama and Ugluk. I do not like that the heroes has same health indicators and damage, depending on the role.
The tank has a 260 damage and 5500 health, supporter has an average 4000 health and 300 damage and so on. I want more differences between the heroes, depending on their role in the history of Middle-earth.
But my main idea is that the most powerful heroes are weaker than they should be and do not correspond to its price.
  About Naryan ring: This game is about the war of the ring, and at the time the ring was already a long time ago at Gandalf.
I have nothing against the ability of Cirdan, but here we are talking about the new capabilities of Gandalf, that he need.(This is just my opinion and I understand that a team  pleased the current implementation).
But I think that more abilities at Saruman and Gandalf increase their usefulness.In addition, it will add even more fun to play with them.Add Narya ring was just a small idea.
But I want to say again: Gandalf has is only active magical abilities, but as we know  from the book, his main strength was the ability to ignite the hearts of those who are struggling with Sauron.
 Lord of Mordor, could you answer that think of my ideas, which I posted at the end of the second page of this topic.I really like your mod and I dial the text a few hours with the help of an interpreter, so I would like to know your opinion))

[Gandalf The Gray]

i like your idea mate