Dwarven Balance Discussion

[Elite KryPtik]

I think perfecting the Battlewagon should be in one of the bigger updates, because obviously if we go with the designs given by Dain, it would take a lot of work.  But I really like those designs.

^This. I want to see new factions as a priority, although obviously I also participated with my own ideas for the reworked battlewagon, so naturally I want to see those too. Factions should take priority I think though.

[Walküre]

I think perfecting the Battlewagon should be in one of the bigger updates, because obviously if we go with the designs given by Dain, it would take a lot of work.  But I really like those designs.

You are right and I agree with you. Dáin's proposal is currently one of the most consistent and solid suggestions that were ever proposed in the English Community. It basically has anything one could wish for a concept: an incredible conceptual base, a lot of significant details (thanks to other skilled contributors), a vast support from the Community (more than 50 positive votes in its poll) and the fact that the Edain Team appreciated it.

It's thus undoubtedly likely that we will see something of it in the future. But, as Elite and the Edain Team too stated, that concept would be too daunting to be dealt with, at the moment. There are two remaining factions that still are longing to be completed 

I know that many people rely on this promising battlewagon overhaul. I will thus assure everyone that I will make everything I can to keep that flame alive. There is another demanding work that needs to be done though (and it's finalising the factions).

[FilipMakedonski]

Concerning the Battlewagon improvements in the latest patch plus the idea that was proposed by Dain and CragLord, I must say that I too want to see that in future times. Also I'm glad that the Team liked the concept and that you Walk support it as we all fans do )
Keep in mind that best ideas come after some period of time, so there is no need for hurry, I know that everything can be achieved and for that normally it takes some time
Have a nice day and thanks for the update, now it's more challenging to play with my favorite Iron Hills faction

[Hamanathnath]

After some more testing, I can say that Ram Riders are just a bit too strong right now.  Because of the nerf to them and the added upgrade needed to buy them, they are much easier to deal with because you don't see them till decently late into the game.  But they can still run head first into Upgraded Elite Pikes without taking enough damage.  They generally won't win in melee combat against Elite Pikes, but still I think should take a bit more trample revenge damage.

[Elite KryPtik]

I disagree. I saw the damage that they take and it was, in some cases, half a lifebar of damage. I think they are fine as they are.

[Odysseus]

The Ram Rider/Gondor Knight/Meduseld Rider nerf was, if I recall correctly, inspired by the LPS-Cup fix patch. I also think that the Elite Cavalry units are easier to deal with now. I personally don't know if it is perfect at the moment, too soon to tell surely, but certainly a step in the right direction.

[Odysseus]

Pardon the double post, but in a 1v1 fight, Celeborn actually loses to reworked Iron Hills Thorin III in a direct fight.

Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdb-_0gs_XA

I doubt this is a good thing. Especially since Celeborn is a hero killer and has a higher cost. I trust the team will see to it .

[Elite KryPtik]

Thorin is the Iron Hills hero killer. Since Dwarves have so few heroes, it doesn't surprise me he wins, because dwarves have extra stats since they have less heroes than most factions, especially Iron Hills.

[Odysseus]

I know he is, but Celeborn costs more, and should be better than him.

[Elite KryPtik]

There are a lot of heroes that cost more that lose to other heroes. Gandalf, Saruman, etc. I know its a role based thing but once again, Lothlorien has more heroes than Iron Hills, and in addition Celeborn gets STRONGER the more enemy heroes are nearby. He can absolutely nuke people if 4 heroes crowd on him. Also, Celeborn gets much MUCH stronger as he levels up, to the point he can literally wipe entire rosters of enemy heroes. I have no problem with Thorin beating him early on in 1v1.

[-Mandos-]

The first fight between Celeborn and Thorin was just a misplay from the Celeborn player, Celeborn would have won this if he played properly and in the second fight against Thorin with Mithril he loses only by one hit, so its really close. And as Elite already said, Celeborn gets stronger the more enemy heroes there are so this is fine for me

[Odysseus]

Hmm, good points. Although, I was talking about a 1v1 experiment where both where level 10. I agree with unit counters and different pricing depending on army composition, but when it comes to units with the same role, the one that has a higher price should simply win, in my opinion. I didn't claim Thorin III needs a nerf, just that his new ability set is perhaps not finalised yet, and could still use some fine-tuning.

[FG15]

Thorin hasn't exactly the same role as Celeborn, because he is also a tank, while Celeborn is a pure Hero killer.

[Odysseus]

Which makes him even stronger, especially for his cost. I'll rest my case, just that I find the price disparity of 1800 versus 2300 for a pure hero killer to a tank/hero killer hybrid a bit unfair. Lothlorien already have trouble dealing with the Iron Hills match-up as it is.

[Draco100000]

When looking at balancing you cannot simplify to 1v1 hero battles....

You have to keep in mind every single way of playing with both factions and then analice if 1 thing make too strong 1 faction vs all others or in 1 special matchup. So in a 1v1 Elves vs dwarves, elves have better start while dwarves better midgame and Elves better Lategame. Celeborn will kill dwarven Heros if well combined with your troops. He is great hero killer and his cost is fine cause the entire roster of Lothlorien is incredibly strong, at that point I think there is no better faction than them.

Greetings