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The Earth Hammer von Walküre am 08 Jun, 2017 17:34
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THE EARTH HAMMER
Greetings to all the gentle souls of the forum. As one may have easily inferred from a couple of posts of mine in the thread related to Durin, I would like to present a defined and specific concept. Although details are not very much defined and they will surely need be scrutinised a bit more thoroughly, the kernel of the topic does deal with a specific subject: the Earth Hammer from the BFME2 campaign.
Unfortunately, I don't remember now all the technicalities of the system; this first post could be seen as an initial attempt to break the ice around the debate. What I know is that the Earth Hammer is a monumental machine which is able to hit the ground and propagate seismic waves across the map. Speaking about gameplay, it should allow the player to create earthquakes on a given area at intervals; thus, a real surrogate of a spell (a non-spell). Wouldn't it be interesting, smarter and more unique to implement this machine via the very Dwarven spellbook, as a proper spell? Obviously, a problem arises and it regards the new nature of this hypothetical spell: will the current spell (meant to be a short-term feature) be turned into a long-term feature, interfering with the summoning of the fortress? As I pointed out, I'm not enough familiar with the mechanics of this machinery (people who know are welcome to provide clearer insights), but I guess the essence of such spell would not be altered in a very abrupt of a way. In line with what my memory tells me, the generalities of the earthquake-creating feature are at the end of the day similar to the actual earthquake: creating seismic waves in a given area of the map, after waiting the common recharging time that the feature entails (whether it be the hammer or the actual spell). The idea behind is quite the same, as well as the function in the very game.
On the other side, I'm a good deal more self-confident in stating my lore-related and conceptual views about it. Contrary to the very simple design and nature of the current spell, including a machine of that kind would undoubtedly result in much more uniqueness and differentiation for the faction itself. Given the legendary skills of Dwarves when it comes to monumental building and complex engineering, a colossal construction of that kind would be totally apt for the context: stressing the importance of one of the peculiar traits of the race and disposing of an interesting tool to use. Parallel to how the Noldor infuse and imbue their weapons with magic (swords that sense the Evil and glow), which is nothing more than the nature of the artist reflected on the art, the Dwarves are equally renowned for boasting the mastery of monumental architecture/craftsmanship. We might also create an aura of mystery around the Earth Hammer, as the machine does have magical properties: what if some arcane secrets of Aulë (memories of the Noon of Valinórë) had been passed on to the Dwarves, when the latter encountered the Noldor in the Elder Days?
All in all, apart from details concerning the implementation of the feature, which I hope we will conceive in relatively short time, I deem the prospect I envisaged as very fitting for the Edain Mod's standards: uniqueness, smart gameplay, lore atmosphere and rationalisation of means. In simpler terms, I find the concept bloody brilliant! -
#1 von Gandalf7000 am 08 Jun, 2017 18:23
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I support this suggestion as it is meant to bring another uniqueness in the mod. Besides you already have similar recruiting/spamming building in Rohan (Tents) and Mordor (Gorthaur's fortress). This building/unit would be unique and clearly represent the great construction skills of the dwarves.
If this suggestion is going to be approved they would need to rethink the Earthquake spell which is quite unique but I don't think it should stay if this is approved because of the identical effects of it and the earth hammer. -
#2 von Walküre am 08 Jun, 2017 19:18
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Thank you for the positive response, Gandalf. As soon as we manage to polish the details of the proposal, I will establish the for/against list. Regarding spells, if this suggestion were to be accepted, the earthquake spell would be inexorably bound to go: as I wrote, the Earth Hammer is exactly to replace the very spell in the spellbook (as a summoning spell akin to Grond).
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#3 von OakenShield224 am 08 Jun, 2017 19:28
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I like the idea of the Earth Hammer. However, this would mean that both of the dwarven final powers are building summons. While this itself may not be a problem due to the in-lore craftsmanship of the dwarves, it may be a problem for gameplay as both buildings can be used offensively. Maybe if the citadel was adjusted in some way to be more defence focused, the two building summons could work together.
Another potential problem would be how to counter it. I'm assuming that the player would be only able to get one Earth Hammer on the map at a time. If so, most players would keep it close to their base to keep it safe. By the time the enemy would be able to muster the strength to destroy it, the player may just be able to resummon it, meaning that they have suffered no penalty for losing it. I'm just considering different options here so feel free to ignore this idea. -
#4 von FG15 am 08 Jun, 2017 19:51
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The Earthhammer will be a normal Siege Weapon for all dwarven realms in 4.5:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34098.0.html -
#5 von Walküre am 08 Jun, 2017 20:42
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Ah, right, I didn't remember those news correctly and I hardly ever used the Dwarves while playing the Beta. Even though my heart is with the colossal version of such machine, I don't feel like questioning the new implementation which the 4.5 patch comprises, considering the holistic logic of the whole siege overhaul.
I don't know if I should therefore jettison this entire thread or not. Quite a pity... -
#6 von Garlodur am 08 Jun, 2017 21:13
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I don't know if I should therefore jettison this entire thread or not. Quite a pity...
I don't think it's a big concern for the current state of the Edain Mod, although the attempt of making the Earthquake spell more unique is valuable as it shows attention to the details. Something you are very capable of
My opinion on the topic is quite simple: although it would make sense in a realistic logical perspective to add a separate building summon that generates earth shocks, it does not make much sense in terms of gameplay logic. Why would you include a building that does exactly the same thing as the current spell? It could be stronger coming from the building but that seems a strange argument to make, if it can be made stronger through more simple ways.
I wonder how exactly the new siege weapon Earthhammer will work, besides disabling base defences: how effective it will be, if it makes sieging for Dwarves too easy, etc. It certainly is a good way to reflect the aspect of Dwarvencraft interfering with natural forces. -
#7 von Walküre am 08 Jun, 2017 21:27
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Thank you for the praise, Garlodur. But I was indeed too much focused on details that I overlooked the most important thing: the fact that a lesser version of my proposal is going to be part of the game nonetheless.
Gameplay-wise? Well, imagine having a colossal hammer at disposal, with the power to create seismic waves across the vastness of the map. The machine could permit you to create earthquakes more frequently, provided that damage is decreased (compared to the impactful/sudden effect of the current spell). I believe it would be a smarter alternative than simply activating the vanilla spell; in this case, uniqueness and conceptual references do provide just reasons for gameplay equally. It would just be like choosing between Grond (named after Morgoth's Hammer of the Underworld) and an immediate (the regular display) spell that crushes walls or gates. Which of the two would you pick?
At least, this was the plan. -
#8 von OakenShield224 am 08 Jun, 2017 21:50
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Maybe, once the Earthquake spell is bought, there could be a slight visual change to the dwarven base to show where the earthquake comes from. It wouldn't change gameplay in any way but would give some context to the ability.
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#9 von The_Necromancer0 am 08 Jun, 2017 21:57
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Oakenshield's idea is exactly what I thought when I was thinking about a way to reuse the earth hammer. It would be a fun cosmetic change that could appear when the spellbook power is bought and could use the animation that is used in the bfme2 campaign when the spellbook is used. Upon the power being used the hammer will fall down and once it hits the earthquake will trigger in the target area.
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#10 von Walküre am 08 Jun, 2017 22:13
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Very good idea! I like it. It saves both the model and all the conceptual themes I have hitherto addressed
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#11 von AulëTheSmith am 09 Jun, 2017 00:41
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The Earthhammer will be a normal Siege Weapon for all dwarven realms in 4.5:
Well, ok we are discussing about two similar things that have the same name, but they have a totally different order of magnitude : and with "magnitude" I mean both the size of the machines and the intensity of the earthquake (unintentionally I got two meaning using one word
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34098.0.html
). I like very much the proposal
If the team consider the idea of DieWalküre redundant with the current siege weapon, then we can implement it as proposed by oakenshield. As I just say you DieWalküre, the spell need a proper name, and a proper spot.
The current one is very general and apparently is coming from nowhere. And also as a personal taste, I would change the thumbnail(palantir) because the current image is also a bit general, and it is unchanged since the original game
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#12 von Dain@ am 09 Jun, 2017 13:39
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I fully support the OakenShield224, it's just a super compromise in order to make this ability unique. As for the damage to earthquakes, I believe that it should get a slight change. In the current state the player simply uses this ability and almost instantly destroys half the enemy's fortress, plus it also damages the troops inside the fortress. In this form it is very strong and helps to make the siege of the fortress very easy. I propose to change the nature of the earthquake: to reduce the range by 15%, to reduce the damage by 30-40%, and only the buildings will receive damage, but now buildings that fall under the earthquake stop their activity for a certain period of time (do not give resources and it is impossible Hiring troops and carrying out improvements). Also, other players suggested the impossibility of using an earthquake without direct visibility, and I also support it. In this way we will get a more specialized ability, and the rest should be done by the player when siege, according to the poem this will be a good compromise for the balance.
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#13 von TheDarkOne am 09 Jun, 2017 13:42
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I was thinking a lot about the final spells of the dwarven faction and now I find your new concept quite original. It doesn't matter much that the idea is not extensively detailed. What is relevant is that you wrote it here. I think that Edain Team can make up something more interesting in terms of gameplay than simply summoning a citadel (which is now a long term spell now but still very much offensive) and an earthquake.
Despite plans to remake the Earth Hammer into a siege weapon of medium range, I hope that this will attract enough attention and I praise your idea and support it. -
#14 von Tiberius Ogden am 21 Jan, 2019 03:03
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The simplest solution would be that machine (animation) will appear, trigger massive earthquake, and then dissapear.
Nothing more. It will solve issue that dwarves are not mages - they need siege machine for such spell, and also spell execution will be much more interesting by adding additional animation.