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Autor Thema: Thranduil  (Gelesen 5803 mal)

Tiberius Ogden

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Thranduil
« am: 21. Jan 2019, 19:41 »
Reworked Elvenking Thranduil


This Thranduil's rework leads to Grimbeorn's thread.


We think that the best Middle-earth warrior deserves more focused abilities for the time of War ... currently he provides common bonuses to units, can activate maggic bubble or summon peaceful feast. Not to mention that Galadriel is able to give him Palace guards that are probably hidden under her skirt.

So we stayed loyal to his portrayal in the movies - mass slayer and unit supporter and little reworked his skillset. Synergy between both roles, between Thranduil and his units, was something really important for us while crafting the new skillset.

Abilities:

Zitat
Level 1: Noble wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.


We think that it fits not only to mass slayer hero, but also to army leader - example of synergy between roles.
 
Zitat
Level 3: Mount/Dismount - Thranduil mounts/dismounts his mighty elk to ride/go on foot.


Such lovely elk deserves to be available earlier, than on the fifth level.

Zitat
Level 5: Sindarin Armour - Thranduil puts on his battle armour, which gives him +25% to defense. His silver armour inspires nearby units and grants them +35% defense against monsters, heroic, elite and siege units. (Passive ability)



It fits to 4.5. siege patch, too.

Zitat
Level 7: Feasts of Mirkwood - Thranduil gives orders to begin a special feast which offers the best vine from Dorwinion. The feast generates resources, raises the command points by 50, reveals stealth units and slowly regenerates units and their abilities. If enemies get very near the feast, Elves will vanish immediately. The feast may only be summoned once at the same time.


Although we think that it fits into the spellbook (but Lorien's spellbook is currently overcrowded), we still wanted to keep such unique ability, even reworked it in order to fit more to Lorien gameplay.

Zitat
Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him, which starts moving against enemies and attacking them. All allied units near Palace Guards, including the Elvenking, get +50% attack.


We moved famous ability to ultimate spot and added second row, because additional troops trough the gift seem strange. Otherwise it looks like that Galadriel has second row of troops under her skirt ...

You can see wonderful synergy between Thranduil and his troops. He fights for them and inspires them, and they fight for their king.


Thranduil can receive upgrade "Silver gem" through Gifts of Lorien.



What is problematic and what we removed completely:

Zitat
Level 3: Arcane Shield - Thranduil surrounds himself in a magical barrier which absorbs incoming damage. The shield will be depleted after 10 hits and then automatically regenerated after 60 seconds. (Passive ability)


Definitely unique ability, fits for tank hero, but not for Woodland king Thranduil. Such magic exceeds even Maiar - for instance battle mage Gandalf. Also inspiration from Warcraft is obvious.
Maybe it would work for Nordor Glorfindel, but he already has similar and more lore-friendly tank abilities.
So we want to keep it that's why we suggest to move it to CaH. Fans of Elf lord class will have at least something really unique and well known.


We hope that you enjoyed reading and we are looking forward to debate with you about Edain's Thranduil!  xD

P.S. ...



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« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 15:18 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #1 am: 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 »
I was about to address similar issues in your previous Mirkwood topic, but this one now looks the most appropriate for such type of feedback.

First of all, let us start with the concept:
Personally, I like every single suggestion, and I totally understand why, in your opinion, two of the current abilities need to slip in lower slots, being therefore available earlier. Really, there is not much to add to your work. On a literary, lore-based perspective, I fancy how his level-7 ability references his battle against the evils of the North. If I'm not mistaken, the Woodland King was well alive in the First Age, as he was (very likely) a Sindarin prince at the court of Elwë, in Doriath. Very significant connection ;)

Nevertheless, I would like to point out something, which I've been pretty fixated on for quite a long time. It's a kind of atavistic issue that keeps me awake at night. In front of it, changes on abilities or strategy move to the background of the holistic portrait. The problem I have with him is probably caused by an ill combination of his skills, but not solely because of his current power set. It's quite simple: I just don't like him, as a hero.

It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes. I don't like him. He looks slow, clumsy and sluggish. He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.
I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.

I might be completely misled, but I blame his current animation at large. It may have been the most viable choice, yet at what cost? The two aforementioned Elven sires are utterly amazing; though assigned to different roles, they do splendidly in battle. On the other side, I can barely move Thranduil around, without having the chance to prove his value. Again, we're talking about different roles and functions, but the comparison with his two Elven fellows is quite unforgiving, if you ask me.
I hope there will be room for a possible (needed) overhaul; not so much dissimilar to what has lately befallen our White Lady.



Concerning the last proposed ability, what doesn't seem to fully convince me is the fact that Palace Guards happen to be everywhere in the game. Theoretically, they should embody an imposing elite unit, and this they do beautifully. No complaints, except that the player may easily recruit battalions upon battalions of them. There's no limit. Wherefore, are we really sure that a shield wall (made entirely of such unit) could be enough unique for an ultimate feature? I believe there might be some differentiation problematics, there.

Additionally, Aragorn's own phantom wall already brings in the Mod an akin concept, even though its main purpose differs substantially with that of Palace Guards. I like the idea nonetheless, as it should explore his commander-like side, and we know that the Woodland King wages war only in very rare situations, when the own safety of the woods is in peril.

Said that, that's where the lancers from the Hobbit come to the rescue!
What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.



(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #2 am: 22. Jan 2019, 11:22 »
I personally don't think that Tranduils dress doesn't work that well with his fighting abilities.
So when you recruit him, he does take a staff and two swords with him, got an ability to lead his troops into battle, but he doesn't take an armor with him?
Doesn't really suit him in my opinion. So if we want him to be that way, that he is someone who stays with his troops out of battle as long as he can, he should have the party tent as his first ability.
Maybe it would suit more if Galadriels Gifts would make the party much bigger, because she gives better wine and Lorien elves come to join the party. But armor is okay too.

Leadership would come then on lvl 3, Elk maybe together with his armor on lvl 5, Wrath of the Elvenking lvl 7.
I like the rest of your suggestions, although I must agree with Walküre about the shield wall.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #3 am: 22. Jan 2019, 13:09 »
I just don't like him, as a hero.
It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes.

Well, you're not alone ... Quite many of us ... xD

I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.

That's because he was created before BOTFA came out ... but even if we completely try to ignore last Hobbit movie, and Thranduil's deadly swords, we still would have problem with him, cause he has forced to tank role, which doesn't fit him ... but also the rest of his skillset is quite mixed.
He looks like "All in one" hero, you know ... bubble shield ... feast ... unit support ... not too focused abilities.

He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.

It's without doubt. Don't forget what movie makers told us: "If Galadriel is the most powerful being in the Middle-earth during the time of Hobbit, then Thranduil is definitely the most badass warrior in the Middle-earth during that period."

He should be killing machine ... and normally when you see a guy with two swords on the battlefield ... you immediately realise that you and all of your troops will have serious problems ...  8-)
But still needs unit support aspect, as he is a noble king and protector of his realm.

So the role of mass slayer for him is obvious (with some unit support aspects) ...  :)

I've reworked some of his abilities which fit to mass slayer above ...

What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.


(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk

Why so limited and complicated?
Palace guards are special unit in the movies, it's pretty clear ... troops who protect their king and his halls.
So in order to make them unique, they can stay in Thranduil's skillset plus be limited heroic unit.


It means that we need regular lancers for Mirkwood, who fit to overall Mirkwood design and correspond to other units.


And solution is extremely simple - add spears instead of swords/bows to Mirkwood troops and you've created the new unit!  xD
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Feb 2019, 01:58 von Tiberius Ogden »

Julio229

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #4 am: 22. Jan 2019, 13:52 »
Edit: After thinking about it and seeing the proposed Grimbeorn changes (which I feel are a nerf on him), and the proposed gift of Lórien that Thranduil would get, I'm not sure that I agree with this proposal anymore. While I still think Thranduil feels a bit unfocused, I'm not so sure now about the details of the proposal, so I can't really say I'm in favour of it right now.

I really like this Thranduil rework. He is not a bad hero currently in my opinion, but he did feel a bit unfocused and this would certainly go a long way to make him be on the Celeborn or Elrond level of greatness he deserves!

About the Palace Guards, I feel like they could be reduced to a heroic unit, letting the unused Mirkwood Pikes take their place as a regular unit. It would make Thranduil's (now) level 10 more impactful than them being a regular unit as they are now (which also poses the problem of Lothlórien being too good against Cavalry, which are their main "weakness" IIRC), so maybe moving them to an Heroic unit and making regular Mirkwood Pikes be part of the faction (though of course this could be of no help to the problem posed before), lowering the effect of such a good unit as the Palace Guards are, could be a good effect.

I definitely think the Palace Guards work better on Thranduil's ability than the Pikes, unless the ability was to be lower than level 10, or even, one of the lines could be Pikes and the other one Palace Guards :P (though it being Palace Guards only could work towards the ability's "impact" and effectiveness)

About Grimbeorn, he'd definitely make a good fit to be Lórien's tank hero, however I can't speak much about him because he is one of the heroes I use the less in Edain (not by his fault, I don't usually go for Beornings), but I'll probably try to use him more so I can contribute to that side of the discussion!

« Letzte Änderung: 9. Feb 2019, 17:35 von Julio229 »


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #5 am: 22. Jan 2019, 14:10 »
I really like this Thranduil rework.

Thanks for feedback! I've already implemented quite a lot of your thoughts in the edited comment of mine above!  xD
I am still editing something ...  Professional deformation  :P ...

Maybe it would suit more if Galadriels Gifts would make the party much bigger, because she gives better wine and Lorien elves come to join the party. But armor is okay too.

Nice one! I've already thought about it.
Exactly, armor is fine, but ...

Zitat
* Orophin and Rumil: Elven armor that drastically increases their defenses.
* Haldir: Blessed Arrow with more damage and a larger radius than Radiant Arrow
* Celeborn: Lordly armor that increases defences and damage
* Thranduil: Royal armor and an additional row of Palace Guards for his shield wall
* Legolas: Bow of the Galadhrim that increases damage of Hawk Strike and Arrow Wind

 ... not so unique, many heroes can receive armour ... it seems like Galadriel is walking armory. Armour for her people fits ... but for Thranduil? It looks like Thranduil doesn't have money for buying royal armour ... poor forest guy ...  :P

Also your idea how to improve feast isn't bad, but we have to take into account that gifts of Lorien should be directly linked to hero.

So ...


So Thranduil would receive his armour normally on level five - together with ability "Protector of Woodland realm" which will be probably passive ...

« Letzte Änderung: 24. Jan 2019, 01:44 von Tiberius Ogden »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #6 am: 22. Jan 2019, 16:26 »

I have to say, I am quite happy about the plans to rework Thranduil, because I very much dislike his current skillset.
I personally of course, would much rather look to the books than to the films, but since Edain in general is getting continously closer to the movies, while straing from the books, I believe that Thranduil is one of the characters who should stay the most with the movies.
He is portrayed in a very cool way I think, and is my favourite character from BOTFA - though that's not saying much.
Visually, he of course is almost perfect, and his character is at least believable for the most part.

What I'm not a fan of, is the skillset that is currently proposed, mainly because of two abilities:
Wrath of Elvenking - Thranduil fought many times with the great beasts from the North. Temporarily gains +75% attack bonus against Monsters, heroic and elite units, can't be knocked down and attacks much faster for short period of time.
Even when ignoring the lore aspect of the first sentence, I don't think this ability is fitting for a mass-slayer. Especially monsters, but also heroic and elite units normally don't appear in great numbers.
Furthermore, Mirkwood and Lorien can already very easily deal with single entities: They have a lot of very good archers, and of course they also have Legolas. And Legolas, eventhough his "Hawkstrike" ability went from 'OP' to 'useless', is still very efficient against not only heroes, but specificially monsters.

So in my personal opinion, "Wrath of the Elvenking" should rather give a bonus similar to this: Thranduil attacks faster and has splash damage for a short period of time.

Also, since I am already talking about Legolas, we shouldn't forget that the prince of Mirkwood already has mass-slayer capabilities due to his insane firing speed and his lvl 10 ability.

The second Thranduil ability I don't like very much is the moving shield wall, I'd still keep the stationary one in some form or another (or just get rid of it completely, and replace it with something else, like an attack order; in the extended movie he's commanding the volleys of arrows against the dwarves and later the orcs: "Leithio!").

Also, his shield wall and leadership seem a bit weak, but then again, it's Edain 4.
I know why I still have the hero submod for 3.8.1 on my laptop.  8-)

But it's good that someone has a plan how to get rid of the chewing gum bubble.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #7 am: 22. Jan 2019, 17:18 »
It seems that the topic is quite spiralling. Not out of control, though, but rather in the right direction :)
Note aside, it also appears to be the day of valorous Elven lords. From one lord to the other. May it be the time when mistakes will be corrected and flaws fixed.

Concerning the major overhaul, I pretty much agree with everything Tiberius and Julio have said on the matter. The issue does lie in his current (mal-appointed) role. It's clear that it doesn't fit him so well. The idea of correcting it therefore sounds very good. In addition, I see the point regarding Palace Guards: if we want them to be really elite, in the very sense of the word, they should necessarily be gone from the regular outpost and instead be made a special feature of the Woodland King. This makes so much sense, now. Those guards have the supreme, imperative task of caring about the monarch's own well-being. Spawning them as if there were no tomorrow negates their particular nature.
Besides, models of those lancers already exist, if I remember correctly. Ready to be used.

So Thranduil would receive his armour normally on level five - together with ability "Protector of Woodland realm" which will be probably passive ...

I'm fine with a passive ability that grants him his renowned silver armour. I think the current mechanics are one of those inconsistencies that the next patch should (must) do without, like Narya in the hands of Círdan, and so on. Also, I remember your old comment on ModDB: you're right, the Lady is not a walking armoury :D



I'm certain that the general concept will be polished for the better, until it's properly finalised. However, I believe we have another problematic to tackle, and I have anticipated it in my previous reply. What about his controversial animation?

He sports the same animation of Éowyn, if I'm not wrong, which slows his movements down and hampers his attack. We've already concurred that his noble profile corresponds to that of a deadly hero. Hence, given the radical change of skills and role, shouldn't we also seize the opportunity and find another suitable animation? I know that his stance system does not permit him to choose from a wide variety of possibilities, but I'm sure it's worth the try. Without proper movements, any big proposal is more or less halved in effectiveness.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #8 am: 22. Jan 2019, 17:21 »
"Wrath of the Elvenking" should rather give a bonus similar to this: Thranduil attacks faster and has splash damage for a short period of time.

I was thinking about splash damage, but then I realized that he deals splash damage through the aggresive stance:
Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

But with the Wrath of Elvenking Thranduil can affect larger area, why not. Ok, I'll edit my post. I'll keep "monster issue" fow now, because probably that skill will be on level 7. We will see.

moving shield wall, I'd still keep the stationary one in some form or another (or just get rid of it completely, and replace it with something else, like an attack order; in the extended movie he's commanding the volleys of arrows against the dwarves and later the orcs: "Leithio!").

I don't want to him command archers, it's up to Legolas who can train them. Summon of special unit quite fits to him, but I'm still thinking how to make last ability stronger and keep mass slayer - unit supporter aspects ...  8-|

Also, his shield wall and leadership seem a bit weak, but then again, it's Edain 4.

I am quite careful. He costs 2 400 (so not 3 000 like faction leaders) and he is outpost hero. But I'll see.

But it's good that someone has a plan how to get rid of the chewing gum bubble.

You got us! xD ...

Besides, models of those lancers already exist, if I remember correctly. Ready to be used.

So what are we talking about?  :P

He sports the same animation of Éowyn, if I'm not wrong, which slows his movements down and hampers his attack. We've already concurred that his noble profile corresponds to that of a deadly hero. Hence, given the radical change of skills and role, shouldn't we also seize the opportunity and find another suitable animation? I know that his stance system does not permit him to choose from a wide variety of possibilities, but I'm sure it's worth the try.

I completely agree. Some animation worthy of agile elf and badass warrior, opposite to slow king.  8-|
« Letzte Änderung: 22. Jan 2019, 18:02 von Tiberius Ogden »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #9 am: 24. Jan 2019, 01:17 »
This is the rework I did not know I needed until it was posted. I've always found Thranduil fine but this rework is brilliant. The bubble has always bothered me too, however, I quite like the current effect of Galadriel's gift as I see it being more unique then a simple damage buff. But, it is true that it does not make much sense lorewise, why would a gift from galadriel suddenly push Thranduil to don his armor and command additional troops.

Now, this is a bit pulled by the hairs but here I go, we know Galadriel is a quite a powerful enchantress right? What if Thranduil was now recruited in his armor straight from the start and casting gifts of galadriel on him would grant him something similar to his old bubble shield, some form of increased armor but more subtle. In addition, it would make sense for a gift from Galadriel affecting a troop summoning ability to add Lorien troops to the mix. Lorien isn't exactly known for its tanky/beefy units but perhaps they could be reinforced with galadhrim in the inner circle, more apt to tear down foes to get through the pike wall.
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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #10 am: 24. Jan 2019, 14:14 »
Since the topic is obviously intertwined with Gifts suggestions and mass-slayer skills, I assume that the proposed level-5 ability would thereby change, turning into a passive one. It may still grant additional defence against monsters (though lower than the shown values) and a splash-type attack (very impactful in combat). What's new is that Thranduil shall wear the silver armour from the Hobbit we all adore :)

Furthermore, as indicated in the Galadriel thread, her gem will bless him with the current magical bubble.

P.S. If it's going to be passive, the ability might need another title. Something digging into his story as a Sindarin prince and wise Elven general.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #11 am: 24. Jan 2019, 18:01 »
Hey guys!

Latest rework of Thranduil's skillset!

Above ... ;)

I still keep his Mass slayer role because we want to be loyal his movie portrayal, and move tank role to Grimbeorn, whose nature can sustain heavy damage (and I'm still working on him), but we also have to take into account that already two heroes have or will have mass slayer aspect.
Legolas and Galadriel. I don't think that Legolas is pure mass slayer, his whole skillset is inadequate for that role, rather he is (at least for me) agile hero with mass slayer aspect. Also ranged mass slayer sounds quite strange, which leads me to Galadriel - some people consider her mass slayer due to her AoE. But we shouldn't forget that her primary attack is effective only against unarmoured regular units, but against monsters, elite, heroic units, siege units etc. is pretty useless. In the upcoming patch will have "White lady banishment" ability but this is only one ability, but yes, we can also say that she has mass slayer aspect.
So in total two heroes (if we want to rework Grimbeorn).
But what Lorien completely lacks is unit supporter. There is only Haldir with one or two unit support abilities and of course, current Thranduil who is also forced to be tank.
So as you can see I stressed his supportive abilities, he is king after all, but connect them with mass slayer aspects.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Feb 2019, 17:23 von Tiberius Ogden »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Feb 2019, 15:12 »
I'm in favour of the current proposal for the Thranduil rework.
It combines two very different roles, and it does that very good.
So if you want to start a list, you can write my name down.

Or should I rather say: Dafür? ;)

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“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #13 am: 7. Feb 2019, 17:22 »
Would be great if someone would create picture of Thranduil's armor for level five. xD

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #14 am: 7. Feb 2019, 17:34 »
Would be great if someone would create picture of Thranduil's armor for level five. xD

I will :)