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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:
Sorry, Adamin, if I seemed to be too judgemental about the game.

But, as much as I love lore speculations, creativity and wandering in the vast spaces of the lore itself, I have to disagree with you  :)
We are not talking about speculations, this time, but about something that significantly diverts from the lore, so that, as I wrote, it wouldn't be acceptable at this extent.
It's true that Tolkien's production presents various and sometimes multifaceted surfaces that seem to contradict themselves, and, as you know, I like discussing about this type of matters.
Though, the interpretation of the game is not just a liberty, but rather a vision that disrupts that common law in Tolkien's lore; that common and shared basic structure upon which we often build our debates.

So, since I want to be generous, I will answer you point by point  :D

1. Sauron is the greatest Maia ever existed, not really due to his physical strength and power (Ungoliant and Gothmog are likely to surpass him in strength), but, as the author reminds us, for his abilities, knowledge and extremely dangerous deceiving plans and purposes.
As the greatest scholar of Aulë, he undoubtedly was the greatest craftsman in the specific period we are dealing with (the Second Age), no matter how Celebrimbor or Fëanor could have been skilled and renowned for their knowledge.
Sauron is the source of all the knowledge and 'input' that the Elves receive in the forging of the Rings of Power; it's Sauron the initial and ultimate pivotal actor of the whole process, especially because everything eventually turned out to his advantage (the One Ring and his Plan).

And, a bit off-topic consideration: Fëanor is indeed the greatest craftsman of all time (as we are constantly told in the Silmarillion), but I would rather see this title inside the dimension of the Noldor or the Eldar themselves.
I mean, this kind of titles often leaves me a bit puzzled when it comes to compare extremely powerful Elves to the Ainur (Maiar and Valar).
It's true that even the Valar could have never created something akin to the Silmarils, but it's also true that the Ainur's standards are absolutely on another level, having created Arda in the first place and other wonders like Valinor itself and the Two Trees.
And, as Tulkas (if I remember correctly) exactly reminds Fëanor, the Light that gives life to his Jewels is something that belongs primarily to the Valar, implying that they too could have 'claimed' some rights on the Silmarils if they had really wanted to.
Besides, I am manifestly a pro-Valar person, so it's definitely a very personal opinion of mine  xD

2. Honestly, I didn't exactly get what you want to say when you talk about Celebrimbor's role in the creation of the One Ring.
And, to answer also your following point, as I previously wrote, I always regarded the role of the Elves in the forging of the Rings as a role totally subjected to the directives given by Sauron.

What I understand and think, reading the Silmarillion, is that Sauron (according to his famous and well known attitude and nature) never needed the aid of the Elves as a concrete help in widening and perfecting his knowledge; he had already conceived his plan from the beginning, as his false promises as Annatar (about recreating Valinor in the World) suggest.
He knew that the Elves of Eregion were delighted and skilled in those arts, but he needed them to have puppets to use in order to make sure that enough Rings of Power would have been created and distributed to each race.
Sauron is smarter than he seems to, I think: even though he didn't know about the secret of the Three Rings, he knew that his founding secret formula would have affected every creation of that kind anyway, being him aware or not.
That's why he's always been a serious threat, because he always manages to drag everyone in his web, one way or the other  [ugly]

3. Celebrimbor was never aware of the One Ring until Sauron himself revealed his true intentions, nor did he ever contribute in the conceiving of any of its magical characteristics.
Keep in mind, also, that it's true that only the Elves immediately unveiled Sauron's true purposes (and that they are generally more farsighted than the other races), but it's also due to the fact that the other Rings had not been distributed yet at that moment, and Sauron waged war to Eregion/Eriador exactly to reclaim them.

4. I think I don't need specific quotes to explain the One Ring's particular traits; a lot of references speak for themselves, I guess  :)

What I meant was that, once the One Ring has been created, its essence has always remained perfect in itself and utterly unaltered.
That means that the only things that can take place are the possibilities of the Master Ring surviving the flow of Time and keeping its integrity untouched, or it being destroyed and consequently having its essence annihilated completely.
I'm well aware of which effects it could have on different people, but everything depends exactly on those people's characteristics (as Galadriel reminds Frodo when he asks if he could have ever used the One Ring to dominate others); no one could do something in between, like altering its powers in any way.

The One Ring is Sauron objectified.
His final goal conceived from his imagination, come into existence and accomplished.
I don't honestly know how Celebrimbor could have ever had any role in this process; it's highly contradictory and wrong.

Adding to it, if that person you mentioned could really be able to overthrow Sauron, he would overthrow the 'physical Sauron'.
Sauron's Will will always remain bound to the One Ring until it exists.

Furthermore, I think we could start other debates about the One Ring's true nature (I read that some people believe it kind of developed a Will on its own, different from Sauron's), but I guess it would be a too much wide discussion.

5. I would also like to add another point.
Celebrimbor existing as a Spirit in the Unseen and wandering throughout Middle Earth is highly improbable and contradictory too.

All the Elves are inevitably bound to pass into the Halls of Mandos as they die.
If their spirits are too mournful and don't deserve to be admitted again in Valinor as blessed Elves, they remain in the Halls of Mandos, mourning forever for their sad fate, as it happens with Fëanor, his Sons and other Eldar.

Along with the previous points, this game's vision contradicts too that shared/common basic structure of the lore I referred to above.
That's why I can't accept it.
You know that I'm not at all a Tolkien purist, but I can't personally accept it anyway  ;)

Adamin:
What common basic structure are you talking about Val? If it's so basic, please describe it in just three sentences or fewer. :D
Right now I'm not really sure what you mean by that. And you commented on so much that I don't really know what it's supposed to refer to.

Also yeah, I guess it's kinda pointless to argue about a game that you haven't even played. So I'll try to keep my further arguments purely based on lore. I anyway only want to comment on some lore understanding points.

It's a bit surprising to me how highly you seem to value Sauron. For me a great craftsman has to primary create things, whereas Sauron created nothing by himself except the One Ring. But maybe I'm missing something, so please, show me the specific point in the Texts where Sauron is called Aules greatest scholar.
True, Fëanors creation can hardly compare to the creation of Arda itself (btw neither can Saurons), but at least Fëanor created more than one thing. ;)


--- Zitat ---Besides, I am manifestly a pro-Valar person, so it's definitely a very personal opinion of mine  xD
--- Ende Zitat ---
Then I assume there is no point in discussing the Ainur and their various missteps and flaws, if you already made up your mind about them. ;)

The Elves cannot be totally subjected to the directives given by Sauron for forging the Rings, because we know that Celebrimbor forged the Three Elven Rings without Sauron. So he definetly had some proficiency in Ring Forging on his own.
Also, Sauron originally wanted to use the lesser Rings purely to dominate the Elves, for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance. (quote: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age)
Giving the Rings to the Dwarves and Men was just Saurons Plan B, after the Elves found out about the One Ring (and consequently stopped using their lesser rings). Therefor Sauron most definetly had not conceived everything from the beginning.

And that is my main point: Sauron didn't reveal the One Ring on purpose. All Elves with Rings knew of it and its powers the moment Sauron put it on his finger. This flaw of the Ring, that the Elves immediatly perceived it, is never exactly explained and never brought up again in the texts. SoM now only asks this question: What if Sauron would have, after the destruction of Eregion, tried to correct the mistake that he himself made, by using the next best Ringsmith, who also probably better understood how Elves perceived things.


--- Zitat ---Sauron's Will will always remain bound to the One Ring until it exists.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Of course, Sauron cannot die while the Ring exists. I only wanted to stress that another Ringwielder would not be posessed by Saurons Will through the Ring. Galadriel or Gandalf with the Ring could theoretically use the Rings Power to defeat Sauron (in Body and Will), but would finally turn evil on their own because the purpose of the One Ring inevitably leads to evil.

Walküre:
Yes, it's the basic structure of the Tolkien's Legendarium.
If you want, you may also call it pillars of the lore or foundations of Arda, it doesn't matter; what it matters is the meaning  ;)

Taking into consideration that it is something basic, this implies that it is something one could always guess from particular elements; the general law that stands behind everything and gives everything an ordered sense.
But, if you really need an example: once we know that all the Elves are inevitably bound to leave the World when they die and that their spirits reach the Halls of Mandos, we can't thus accept by logic a vision like the one the game proposes, with a spirit of a High Elf wandering around Middle Earth without rest nor relief.
Or, another example: if we are told via the Manwë's messenger's words that Fëanor or any Elf could have never defeated Morgoth even if Fëanor himself had been made three times bigger by Ilúvatar, then we can't logically accept any vision that consists of any Elf defeating Morgoth by its own hands.

Before you might misunderstand my words as something coming from a purist, with 'accepting something' I obviously intend considering something as canon and thus worthy of being discussed and being the object of the lore speculations that we like so much, regardless of which of the many and sometimes contradictory versions of Tolkien we choose to examine.
I know it could sound as something mechanical and governed by strict and cold logic, but I see it instead as something that 'protects' the lore and allows us to actually make debate about it with less confusion and with a general picture in mind of what the true spirit of these texts could have been.
Because, as Valinor teaches, great things must also be defended in order to exist  :D

I didn't play the game, but this doesn't mean that I don't know anything about it.
I was exactly interested in the lore points you made; I didn't intend to discredit the game just for the sake of doing it  :)
As I wrote above, the game can be about whatever the authors want to, but the very game's vision wounds so much the lore that it can't be acceptable (with that exact meaning of 'accepting' I referred to above).
Do you have in mind the image of Éowyn agonising on the ground, strengthless and harmless after the confrontation with the Witch-king?
That is how that game's vision turns the lore into, in my opinion  xD

Being a pro-Valar person doesn't mean that I forgive everything they did, or forget their flaws.
I think I left a couple of comments in an Imladris-related thread in the Edain Suggestions board and in the Annals of Aman about the Valar's sins, and how, in the end, they were kind of right; they will probably explain to you my position better, if you are interested into it.
Well, you know, they are angelic beings that existed before the beginning of Time and Space, after all.
They surely know two or three things that Fëanor didn't know, like the Destiny of the Universe and other stuff  :D

Sauron was the greatest and most dreadful servant of Morgoth, exactly for his diverse and variegated abilities; but, in my opinion, his real might gradually reveals itself through the Ages of Arda, via the fact that he managed against Time and many hostile situations to have a prominent role until the very end of the Third Age, no matter what, and that his webs are always intertwined with pretty much every significant event of Middle Earth.

What I wanted to say with my previous comment is that Sauron was indeed the main actor in all the process of the forging of the Rings of Power, willingly and unwillingly.
I don't want to undermine Celebrimbor's or the other smith Elves' abilities, but it's always important remembering that it was Sauron who taught them in the first place that secret formula (you can call it with other names, if you want) which is nothing more than the founding essence of every Ring, good and evil, being Sauron aware or not.
This is probably the saddest aspect, the fact that every Ring would have thus been inevitably bound to the One Ring, regardless of all the efforts that Celebrimbor poured into his creations; because even the Three Rings are inevitably bound to that formula (even though they were initially kept hidden).
Celebrimbor added his own personal contribution to the Rings of Power, it's true; but we shouldn't forget that it was Sauron who gave him and the others that basic and secret knowledge of the art of the Rings of Power.
I think our positions differ a bit regarding what type of role we apply to Sauron in the whole process; but I believe that Tolkien made clear that it was Sauron who made it everything possible and that his betrayal had always been present in his plan from the beginning.

So, taking into consideration the comparison I made about the Silmarils' Light and the original one of the Two Trees (speaking about claiming rights), we could say that Sauron could be as well seen as the legitimate owner of all the Rings of Power (included the Three) as his knowledge/formula flows in all of them regardless of their specific nature.
Sauron is the true and only Lord of the Rings.

Regarding the One Ring, I think that you are missing the point that, once Sauron created it, its Will in the artefact has become independent from Sauron himself; the same Sauron's Will but loosened by the very physical limits of Sauron.
This means that the Will of Sauron could never be defeated if the One Ring is not destroyed.
Galadriel could have defeated (not killed) Sauron with the Ring, but the very Sauron's Will would have slowly corrupted her and turned her into a tyrant, as she admits.
But, I don't really understand why you seem to separate the fact that the One Ring is evil and the Will of Sauron contained in it.
They are the same thing; it's that Will that makes the Ring evil and gives it its known and dreadful properties.

Adamin:
Ooh, now I get it. Well in that case there is no problem, because this law

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 13. Feb 2016, 03:51 ---once we know that all the Elves are inevitably bound to leave the World when they die and that their spirits reach the Halls of Mandos, we can't thus accept by logic a vision like the one the game proposes, with a spirit of a High Elf wandering around Middle Earth without rest nor relief.
--- Ende Zitat ---
is not violated. In SoM Celebrimbor did not die, at least in the same sense that Sauron does not die, because they both bound themselves to the One Ring.



--- Zitat ---Being a pro-Valar person doesn't mean that I forgive everything they did, or forget their flaws. I think I left a couple of comments in an Imladris-related thread in the Edain Suggestions board and in the Annals of Aman about the Valar's sins, and how, in the end, they were kind of right;
--- Ende Zitat ---
Right there, you immediatly forgave them everything! :D
You can't have your cake and eat it too Val. And I know that you would very much like to. ;) 
The Valar made mistakes, and they ultimately lead to good things, but the mistakes were not good in themselves. The outcome does not justify wrong intentions.



--- Zitat ---So, taking into consideration the comparison I made about the Silmarils' Light and the original one of the Two Trees (speaking about claiming rights), we could say that Sauron could be as well seen as the legitimate owner of all the Rings of Power (included the Three) as his knowledge/formula flows in all of them regardless of their specific nature.
Sauron is the true and only Lord of the Rings.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Then you're disregarding another of Tolkiens basic structures: Creation and Subcreation. Everything in Arda is ultimately a Subcreation of Eru, but the Subcreator still came up with his/her creation themselves. There is no claiming rights, because the Silmarils would not have been without Fëanor. Tulkas may reminded him that their Light originally came from Yavanna (not that it belongs to the Valar), but Aule (being a Subcreator himself) is immediatly defending him.

Of course, Sauron himself definetly sees it that way, that he is the legitimate owner of all rings. Because claiming ownership, or in other words seeking dominion, is always an evil action in Tolkiens Legendarium. ;)

--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age ---But [Sauron], finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel.
--- Ende Zitat ---


I'm so adamant on differentiating Saurons Will and the Rings evil influence, because that is one of Tolkiens main structures:

--- Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, the Council of Elrond ---For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.
--- Ende Zitat ---
There is no purely evil presence in Arda, no black and white characters. You become evil by disregarding others and focusing on yourself. Yes, in the Third Age Sauron and his Will have turned to evil, but they don't just make a wielder evil.
The Ring corrupting you is not just Saurons fault, and that makes it that much more meaningful! 

The_Necromancer0:
I've read a lot about this question but I never got a truly satisfying answer, always little bits and pieces remained hidden in the mist. So here it is:

What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)

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