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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Fine:
On the topic of Sauron being smart, I'd like to take a look as Sauron as a war-leader or general.

I do not think Sauron is very good at leading armies and strategic planning.
Whilst he did successfully conquer and destroy Eregion, he allowed himself to be attacked in the rear by the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm and the Elves of Lórinand. Did it really not come to his mind that the Dwarves, who had a lasting friendship with the Noldor of Eregion, would come to their friend's aid? This surprise attack should not have been surprising at all, and it allowed Elrond's army to escape to Imladris.
Then, he pushed Gil-galad back to Lindon and once again was surprisingly attacked in the rear - twice - by the Númenoreans. Could he not foresee that Gil-galad would call upon the Dúnedain for aid? And while retreating, could he not simply have avoided rivers altogether? I wonder what he was thinking... "Surely, the next river will not be full of warboats and angry Dúnedain. There's no way they would to the same thing twice."
In the War of the Last Alliance, he failed to defeat Anárion in Gondor, even though the armies of Mordor, Harad and Rhûn combined vastly outnumbered the new Southern kingdom. I wonder what Sauron was doing while Gil-galad and Elendil were gathering their armies at Imladris (for three full years iirc) - fighting an unsuccessful trench war against Gondor? He didn't even bother to attack anyone else (as far as we know). Wouldn't, for example, Lothlórien have been a better target?
Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).
On the successful side, we have Sauron's conquest of Minas Tirith in the First Age, but that took a few years even after the crushing defeat the Noldor had suffered in the Dagor Bragollach.
His war against Gondor in the War of the Ring also started out quite successful with the conquest of Minas Ithil and Ithilien, but then he let himself be provoked into striking too soon by Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro" through the Palantír. Had Sauron instead used the time to amass all of the armies available in Mordor, Harad, Rhûn and Khand, I do believe that Gondor would have been soundly defeated.

Walküre:
I really appreciate the fact that you supported your thesis by making a list of a lot of situations which you think don't fit my definition  :)

But, as I previously wrote, I don't think that this is really the best approach to actually target my point.
No way does the definition I gave – being 'smart' – necessarily imply that Sauron had to win all of his battles and the War itself.
Otherwise, it would be pretty logically impossible making any qualitative statement about Sauron's role in the events he was involved into throughout the centuries, given that he saw his plans undone most of the times.
And, as I also wrote in my previous comment, I think we could do the same exact thing by listing all the critical mistakes the Eldar made since the First Age, or, specifically, the ones the realms of the Free People committed during the War of the Ring and before (and there are many).
Or, what about the White Council, for example, and its appeasing attitude towards the return of Sauron in Mirkwood? Does this perhaps mean that the Wise can't be considered farsighted?

My point is focused primarily on the undeniable fact that, as we know very well, Sauron is the primary actor during the War of the Ring and its previous preparation throughout the whole Third Age.
He caught quite unexpectedly all the Free People engaged in the War, forced everyone on the defensive side until the very last moment, gathered legions of the most diverse troops and coordinated them basically unto the most remote places of Middle Earth.

Therefore, the point is not really if he eventually succeeded in all his propositions, but rather the meaning itself of his whole prominent activity (initially very silent as he lurked in the shadows to prepare his return, then very impetuous as he challenged the Free People in the ultimate war).
And the fact that the War of the Ring was the ultimate war by definition (with really not so many alternatives or plans B for each side in case of a defeat) reflects, I believe, how Sauron had constantly been building up the momentum and scheming almost every aspect of his strategy.
Sauron is undeniably the Keystone of the War of the Ring, and, at a greater extent, of all the course of events since the day Celebrimbor and the other Elven smiths regretted having unintentionally served Sauron's purposes.
Or, even better, we should wonder who really was behind (by his direct or indirect actions) the coming of the Númenóreans in Middle Earth to barrage the dominion of the Evil in the World, and behind the downfall of Númenor, the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time, and the consequent cataclysm that shocked and changed the World itself forever...

Especially, I'm always impressed how the forging of the Rings of Power (Sauron's plan) shaped all the fortunes and misfortunes of Middle Earth until Sauron's very last moment in the Third Age.
The fact that the Rings of Power eventually remained the unaltered gravitational centre of the Second Age and all the Third Age is probably the most evident proof we have.
Basically, everything seems often to gravitate around Sauron, for the good and the evil.

Saruman der Bunte:
Ok. I don't think that Sauron intended the Ring as a back-up plan. He was far to arrogant to even think that his body (without Ring) would be destroyed. The risk was also originally smaller as he had much more power on his own back then.

About Sauron being 'smart': I always thought Saurons greatest accomplishment to be his succesful rise back to power in the 3rd age, and how close he got to victory. He sat in Dol-Guldur for a long time, getting stronger and weakening his enemies with the plague and the wain-riders. If Gandalf's plan hadn't suceeded and destroyed Smaug and lots of Orcs (wich was mostly luck), Sauron would have teamed-up with Smaug (and maybe the Orcs of the Misty Mountains), destroyed Rivendell and Thranduil's realm and conquered Rhovanion, Angmar and maybe even all of Eriador before he went to war with Gondor.
--- Zitat von: Appendix A, III Durin's Folk ---Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the east to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Yet after that he succesfully set himself up in Mordor, manipulated Saruman and Denethor and soon took back Dol-Guldur and certainly had the military high ground in the War of the Ring. But still: if there hadn't been as strong a north as at the end of the Hobbit, the free people wouldn't have had much of a chance against Sauron.

@Fine: Well, Sauron was great at controlling the larger strategic movements but not so great at acting the right way in specific crucial situations aswell as sometimes not noticing potential dangers.

Adamin:
@Saruman der Bunte:
Aaah, I like that quote. ^^
I was kinda miffed when Angmar was added into the Hobbit movie, because I didn't know that it was actually named as part of Saurons plan in the Appendix.

Plus , he would have also attacked Lothlórien with the Dragon, as Gandalf says here:

--- Zitat von: Unfinished Tales: III The Quest for Erebor ---"I thought then, and I am sure now, that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for us."
--- Ende Zitat ---

@Fine:
I suppose that is the reason why Sauron ground up his forces against Lórien. Taking out Galadriel early might have made the rest of his plans easier.

Totally unrelated to that:

--- Zitat von: Fine am 23. Feb 2016, 08:24 ---Aragorn who basically just said "Come at me bro"
--- Ende Zitat ---
xD xD xD


Returning to an earlier question:

--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Feb 2016, 19:52 ---What would have been Sauron's course of action had he regained the ring? (let's say Gollum danced around a little bit more and Frodo tripped into the lava meaning the Nazguls made it back in time to Mount. Doom to cease the ring)
--- Ende Zitat ---

Hard to say, though definetly a good question. I suppose for one he would have returned to his original plan and attacked the Elves. With the One Ring returned Elrond and Galadriel would have had to stop using their Rings, thus Rivendell and Lórien would have lost much of their defenses.
Concerning Men I think it's plausible to expect something along the terms that the Mouth of Sauron brought up:


--- Zitat von: The Return of the King, The Black Gate Opens ---"The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of the Anduin shall be Sauron's for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust."
Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.
--- Ende Zitat ---

So, after a quick retaliation against Gondor for the attack on the Black Gate, Sauron would have occupied everything east of the Anduin and make everything else to the Misty Mountains his tributaries, with the Mouth of Sauron as his Steward in Isengard.

Though I suppose he wouldn't stop there. I could imagine Sauron destroying the Grey Havens just out of spite, though that is just my speculation (and probably inspired by the BfMe2 Campaign).



--- Zitat von: VectorMaximus am 22. Feb 2016, 21:09 ---Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.
--- Ende Zitat ---
As far as I remember, there were different quotes on that, some saying they got the ring from the elves, others that Sauron gave it to them. Though I don't remember exactly which position comes from which book.

The question ist though, does it make a difference? If they got the ring from Celebrimbor, then it was maybe a token of friendship between them. If it was Sauron, then he was probably still capable of using his fair form.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Fine am 23. Feb 2016, 08:24 ---Speaking of the Golden Wood, in the War of the Ring, Sauron's armies attacked Lothlórien three times. Why? What was the plan here? Seeing the Galadhrim's defences as inpenetrable, Sauron should have used the forces he spent on the second and third attack elsewhere. Maybe he could have defeated Thranduil's Woodland Realm with the additional Orcs or could have launched a surprise attack against Rohan (if his army could avoid the Ents).

--- Ende Zitat ---

This part of Fine's comment – regarding Sauron's strategic capabilities – caught my attention, and it raised a bit a doubt that I often though about, approaching to Lothlórien.

First of all, answering the comment itself, Sauron didn't know at all that in the Golden Wood was hidden one of the Three, nor did he exactly know that Nenya provided to Lothlórien an inviolable coverage given the specific properties of the Ring of Water.
This was a very well-kept secret even among the mightiest Eldar.

Here it is the precise reference in the lore.
They are Galadriel's exact words  :)


--- Zitat ---Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
‘Yes,’ she said, divining his thought, ‘it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
‘He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.
--- Ende Zitat ---
J.R.R. Tolkien – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Mirror of Galadriel

Sauron obviously suspects the involvement of a mysterious factor in Lórien's sacred integrity, even though he doesn't know anything.
Therefore, the question is: is it really reasonable that he had not already realised and guessed that Galadriel was the guardian of one of Three Rings, having knowledge about the very existence of those Rings and, especially, knowing that Galadriel was the mightiest Elf in Middle Earth in the Third Age?

Would it be so contradictory or disruptive if Sauron just knew the plain truth about Vilya, Nenya and the connection between these Rings and the places where they are kept?
The Dark Lord could never win those realms anyway, without the One Ring.
I believe it would be much more interesting if the secret of Nenya were something known yet tremendously feared by the Enemy.

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